Author Topic: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??  (Read 5131 times)

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Offline davefr

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How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« on: January 25, 2010, 03:01:01 PM »
First of all I'm extremely happy with my pizzas after joining this forum.  However I'm trying to understand how to create larger voids in the outer crust.  I get a lot of small air pockets in a bready crust but have not been able to create these large voids that you could almost stick your finger into surrounded by nice crusty walls.  What factors are needed to form these voids?

I use a combination of the Lehman, Varasano and Parachini recipe/technique.  Here it is for backgound:

100% Bread flour, 14.3 oz.
63%, Water (at around 100 degrees F), 9 oz.
1% Olive Oil, (a bit less than 1 t.)
1.75%, Sea Salt (a bit over 1-1/4 t.)
0.40%, IDY (instant dry yeast (a bit over 1/2 t.)
Total dough weight = (336.66 g./ea)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

Phase 1
1) Add the IDY to the flour in a bowl and stir to uniformly disperse the IDY in the flour.
2) Put the water into the bowl of the stand mixer, add the salt, and, using a spoon or spatula, stir for about 30 seconds to a minute to dissolve the salt in the water.
3) Using the stir or 1 speed of the mixer, and with the dough hook attached, gradually add up to 75% the flour mixture to the water in the bowl. (2-3 minutes)

Once the dough resembles a thick lumpy batter let it rest for 20 minutes

Phase II
4) Add the oil and run the mixer for about 5 minutes on low.  After that gradually add the remaining flour over about the next 3 minutes. (8 minutes total)
5) Once the dough ball no longer sticks to the mixer bowl, turn off the mixer
   - Dough will hang on hook, not too sticky when you touch it

Let the dough rest for 20 minutes

Phase III
6) Divide the dough balls and hand knead using the Chris Parachini video technique
7) Coat with oil and place the dough balls in fridge for 18-24 hrs. 

Phase IV
8) Remove the dough balls 3 hrs before baking and set on a flat pan. Lightly coat with flour and cover with syran wrap

Phase V
9) Flatten the balls from inside out without applying much pressure.  Gently move air bubbles to outer crust rim
10) Let sit about 5-10 minutes
11) Hand toss

Phase VI
12) Bake at 550 degrees for about 10 minutes


Reference:
http://how2heroes.com/videos/entrees/crispy-chewy-pizza-dough
 


Online scott123

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2010, 03:45:52 PM »
100% Bread flour, 14.3 oz.

Brand?

Phase VI
12) Bake at 550 degrees for about 10 minutes

With a stone? If so, what kind/what dimensions? With a pan? What kind of pan?


Generally speaking, the faster the cooking time, the greater the oven spring, the larger the void. A higher level of hydration helps as well.

Offline Essen1

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2010, 04:13:05 PM »
Dave,

A couple of things that caught my eye when I read your post...

First off, add the oil at the very last. The oil can coat the remaining flour (25%) and prevent it from becoming sufficiently hydrated.

Second, you didn't mention if you use a certain water temperature. However, I think 63% hydration is sufficient enough to get those air bubbles you're shooting for. Another thing is your shaping technique. I can only speak for myself but I always start somewhat with the rim (cornicione) and then move inward. But that's just me.

Below's a pic of what I'm talking about...

Mike

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Offline davefr

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2010, 06:15:35 PM »
Brand?

With a stone? If so, what kind/what dimensions? With a pan? What kind of pan?


Generally speaking, the faster the cooking time, the greater the oven spring, the larger the void. A higher level of hydration helps as well.

King Arthur bread flour and 13" stone.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2010, 07:25:04 PM »
davefr,

I agree with everything that scott123 and Mike (Essen1) have said, but from looking at photos of members who are regularly able to get large voids in their pizza rims, it seems to me that high oven/stone temperatures are very important. For example, take a look at the photos of pizzas made by ThunderStik (he uses a stone temperature of around 630-650 degrees F), Glutenboy (he uses a stone with an oven temperature of around 600 degrees F), and Essen1 (he uses 590-625 degrees F):

ThunderStik
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8516.msg73652.html#msg73652
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9061.msg78376.html#msg78376
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9768.msg84804.html#msg84804
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9736.msg84469.html#msg84469

Glutenboy
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4565.msg38409.html#msg38409
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5521.msg46727.html#msg46727
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66628.html#msg66628
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10021.msg87350.html#msg87350

Essen1 (Mike)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg69553.html#msg69553

I tried to present the above threads in chronological order so that you can also see the evolution of the pies of the members featured. However, you will see that you don't need a lot of yeast, or a super-high hydration, you can use different flours (although the members featured have used the higher protein flours), you can use oil and/or sugar in the dough, you can use bromated or nonbromated flour, and you can use direct and indirect (e.g., preferments) dough management methods. The common denominator appears to be above average oven temperatures. I personally think that it helps to use the dough after a long period of fermentation.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 09:51:05 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline davefr

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 09:47:17 AM »
First off, add the oil at the very last. The oil can coat the remaining flour (25%) and prevent it from becoming sufficiently hydrated.


At the end of the mixing I have a ball of pizza dough vs. a batter.  How can I blend in oil at this point when my KA dough hook is simply pushing around a dough ball vs. doing any mixing?

Should I hand knead the oil in.  (I use Parachini's hand kneading technique of folding the dough ball a few times and then twisting the base.)   

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2010, 01:32:46 PM »
For examples of commercially produced crusts with decent bubbling in the rims, see the examples of tdeane's fine work on these pages, among others in the same thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7561.60.html, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7561.msg69771.html#msg69771 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7561.msg69779.html#msg69779. Like Glutenboy's pizzas, Terry's pizzas also have thin crusts yet the bubbles in the rims stand out. Terry uses a Garland deck oven that he says gets to around 650 degrees F. Arguably his results buttress the case for high oven/stone temperatures, including for standard home ovens.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2010, 04:31:24 PM »
Quote
At the end of the mixing I have a ball of pizza dough vs. a batter.  How can I blend in oil at this point when my KA dough hook is simply pushing around a dough ball vs. doing any mixing?


Don't worry, the oil will get incorporated. Just let the mixer run on low speed and pour the oil down the sides of the bowl.


For more info on a great mixing technique, look at Evelyne Slomon's advice here:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=197&p=825&hilit=totonno%27s#p842


Excerpt from the thread by Evelyne Slomon...


Re: mixing

Here are a few tips that may improve your mixing technique:

Add the water first, use a cool temperature of around 65 degrees--cooler if your kitchen is hot.

Add your flour, salt and yeast next. (If you are using ADY, dissolve it in about 1/2 pound of your total water weight at a warm temperature of 105 degrees. If you are using ADY, pour the salt in first and then the flour and then the yeast. IDY doesn't require pre-hydration and can be added right to the flour. If you feel uncomfortable about adding it on top of the salt, add the salt first, or let the ingredients mix a few seconds before adding. (if you add sugar to your dough, add it with the flour)


Continue mixing until there is no dry flour visible. This step is crucial to hydrating the dough evenly.

Next, add your oil. It is really, really important to make sure the dough is properly hydrated--with no raw flour showing--before adding the oil. Why? Because the oil will coat the raw flour and prevent it from hydrating properlyand that is what will lead to the unmixed dough at the bottom of your mixer. So, just make sure that there is no trace of raw flour before adding the oil. Don't time the process--use your eyes to make sure it has been hydrated--the time could vary depending upon your kitchen temperatures and humidity factors--but the end product will always look the same, so go for that.

You can add all of the oil, or part, it's up to you. I would add it all and continue mixing only until the dough is thoroughly mixed and cleans the bowl. (you could reserve a bit of the olive oil and pour it down the sides of the bowl to finish off the process. Old timers are partial to that technique)

Finished dough does not have to be mixed until it is as smooth as a baby's bottom, it only needs to be mixed as far as cleaning the sides of the bowl and coming together. You can test a piece by stretching it over your knuckles, if it is elastic and stretches into a thin "veil" it is mixed enough, if it tears, it needs a bit more mixing time.

If you form and stretch your dough by hand, your pizza maker will appreciate how much easier this dough handles than an over-mixed dough that snaps back and is difficult to open during service.

OK, so where is the autolyse method?

Try this mixing method first and see if it solves your problem. I think it will.

Without giving you another whole seminar on autolyse, if you want to try it, start by giving your dough a 10-15 minute rest. You can have all of your ingredients already incorporated in the dough. If you plan on giving it a longer rest, say 30-45 minutes, do not add the yeast, or use a very cold, cold water in the mix (around 35 degrees). Or, if your kitchen is particularly hot, don't add the yeast until after the rest. I would also prefer to add the oil after the rest, when the flour is really well hydrated.

This technique which was developed by Raymond Calvel back in the 70's, is usually applied to baking bread. I first came upon Calvel's work when I was working on The Pizza Book in the late 70's or early 80's, but my publishers didn't want me to get so complicated with my recipes, so I did not mention it in my book. Unfortunately, they didn't think that the home cook was ready for most of the information I had aquired, and consequently had to leave out.

When I've worked with Italian Pizzaiolos, I found them to use a similar technique in their dough mixing process. They simply allowed the dough to "rest" because they had discovered that it made for a more elastic, easier to handle dough, that would turn into a more tender crust. Also, in Europe, no one uses planetary mixers, they are all spiral.

I've never been fortunate enough to have a spiral mixer in my store, so I've found that by giving the dough a rest, I can get similar results to the more gentle mixing action of the spiral with my Hobart.

I've learned a lot from artisan bread baking techniques and have adapted them to the pizza process which is not the same as bread. One of the most important things I've learned over the years is to treat the dough gently. To mix, let it rest, and use low speeds throughout the process. Most dough is over-mixed.

That being said, I am talking about hand-made pizza, that will be hand formed and hand stretched and that develops the open cell structure of traditional New York style and Neapolitan style pizza.

The overall mixing technique that I supplied earlier (aside from the "rest" period) is standard technique for any kind of dough.

Hope the mixing lesson helps.

Mike

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http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Online scott123

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2010, 05:50:41 PM »
http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=197&p=825&hilit=totonno%27s#p842

Excerpt from the thread by Evelyne Slomon...

It is really, really important to make sure the dough is properly hydrated--with no raw flour showing--before adding the oil. Why? Because the oil will coat the raw flour and prevent it from hydrating properly and that is what will lead to the unmixed dough at the bottom of your mixer.



No offense to Ms. Slomon (or you), but my experience directly contradicts this. Since perfecting my home oven setup in the last couple years (with a thick, highly conductive stone), I've added the oil in one of two ways:

1. With the water first, then mixed into the flour

2. Add to flour, then add water and mix

and I've always gotten finger sized holes in my cornicione. Sure, fat is a very well known gluten inhibitor- it's why butter is cut into flour for making tender flaky pie crusts.  The small quantity of fat in NY style pizza dough, the quantity of water and the aggressive manner in which the dough is mixed, though, completely mitigate gluten impairment. As an experiment, I tried mixing the oil into the flour first (coating the flour like pie crust) and then mixing my water in and I still ended up with finger sized holes.

I've even achieved this (during the beginning of my process) with same day ferments.  The hydration/additional gluten formation you achieve from an overnight cold ferment renders fat concerns even more meaningless, imo. I've actually done fat-into-flour-then-water no knead doughs with overnight cold ferments that yielded finger sized holes.

For same day doughs, I guess it's a good idea to be aware that adding oil to flour could impair gluten formation slightly and to compensate with a slightly longer knead, but, when discussing long cold fermented, relatively lean doughs, I sincerely believe that the order in which you add oil is completely inconsequential.

P.S. As I was typing this, I took another look at Dave's recipe and noticed he is combining yeast water and salt (and letting it sit).  In terms of ingredient combining order THAT'S not a good idea (salt water is harmful to yeast).

Online Pete-zza

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2010, 06:17:24 PM »
P.S. As I was typing this, I took another look at Dave's recipe and noticed he is combining yeast water and salt (and letting it sit).  In terms of ingredient combining order THAT'S not a good idea (salt water is harmful to yeast).

scott123,

Maybe I am missing something, but davefr's dough recipe recited in the opening post in this thread does not combine the yeast, water and salt and let it sit. He says:

Phase 1
1) Add the IDY to the flour in a bowl and stir to uniformly disperse the IDY in the flour.
2) Put the water into the bowl of the stand mixer, add the salt, and, using a spoon or spatula, stir for about 30 seconds to a minute to dissolve the salt in the water.


Peter




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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2010, 06:49:18 PM »
Adding the oil late in the process is standard operating procedure for Tom Lehmann, as noted at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554.html#msg64554. I believe that Evelyne Slomon, who did not have a technical background, adopted that procedure after hanging around with Tom and teaching courses together on pizza making. In return, she tried to get him to better understand artisan pizza making methods and to avoid using or recommending dough additives and conditioners. Big Dave Ostrander was similarly influenced by Tom and changed his dough recipes to call for the late oil addition. Over time, it is a practice that has become quite common among pizza operators who visit the various forums where professional pizza operators visit and where Tom regularly posts, and in articles that Tom has written for PMQ Magazine and Pizza Today.

Having been influenced by Tom's writings on the late oil addition, I used that method for a long time. But when I saw that member November added the oil to the water or flour (see, for example, Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572/topicseen.html#msg42572), I started to pay more attention to the subject. I found that it didn't seem to make a lot of difference when the oil was added. I also discovered when I was making doughs with very high oil content, such as the Papa John's clone doughs with over 7% oil, it actually was hard to incorporate the oil into the dough late in the process. I'm sure my stand mixer with the C-hook did not help that process, but I thereafter started adding the oil to the water. I sometimes still add the oil to the dough late in the process but only if the amount of oil is small, say, 1-2%, as is the case with davefr's dough recipe. My C-hook has no problem with that small an amount.

Peter


Offline ThunderStik

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2010, 07:14:35 PM »
I will pull some info from another post of mine in another thread.


" I have played around with this quite a bit and have figured out that it comes down to just a few things. Some may disagree but I have done experiments strictly to see the effects.

I have used many different recipes, flours,ingredients,mix methods, fermentation times and bake temperatures, and it seems a few things hold true.

1) A properly fermented dough. What I mean by this is make sure your dough has been fermented long enough.

2) Letting your dough come up to a good temp before using. I dont have a set temp or time but usually its around 3 hours. You should see the dough start to rise. This gets the yeast active again and produces that good gas that you want in the dough.

3) Handling technique.  Ball your dough before you put it in the fridge and DO NOT re-knead the dough before shaping the skin. This mangles the developed dough structure and will ruin the texture that you are looking for.


I will pull a quote from another post I made on the subject.

"First the time in which you let the dough warm up can have a large effect on the finished crust.

When you start to form the skin if you just start pressing it flat you will evenly distribute the gasses through the skin. If you start working the very center of the ball first and work from the center out you force all the built up gasses to the outer edges, which become the rim. Once you can get all that gas evenly to the rim your golden. Just add the hot stone.

I work from the center out pressing lightly with my knuckles until I can get it big enough to fly it a bit. But what I dont do is disturb the rim... at all.

If a person uses a rolling pin you will get a flatter less puffy rim.

The same with lower/higher temps. In my opinion you are fighting the time it takes for the very outside skin of the rim to become hard/crusty and non-elastic with how fast you heat up the gasses inside the skin.

The faster you can heat up those gasses, the faster they will expand. If they expand faster than the skin of the crust can solidify you will get a bubble or a pocket.

If you can heat up the gasses really fast you get alot of expansion before the outside can solidify and you get nice big holes. 

At least thats my theory for now. Either way it seems to work for me."

4) A screamin hot stone that is properly pre-heated. I have done tests with the same exact dough and only changed the oven temps. The results are eye opening, in a home environment "the hotter the better". Crank that oven up all the way and pay close attention. You will see a difference.


Do these things and you will see a good improvement in the "airiness" of your crusts. Try it out and report your results. This of course is just my opinion, but it works for me."



I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Online scott123

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2010, 07:22:26 PM »
Maybe I am missing something, but davefr's dough recipe recited in the opening post in this thread does not combine the yeast, water and salt and let it sit.

D'oh!  I was going by the process in the 'reference' link at the bottom. Disregard my yeast comment.

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2010, 07:45:53 PM »
The faster you can heat up those gasses, the faster they will expand. If they expand faster than the skin of the crust can solidify you will get a bubble or a pocket.

If you can heat up the gasses really fast you get alot of expansion before the outside can solidify and you get nice big holes. 

At least thats my theory for now. Either way it seems to work for me.

There's nothing theoretical about it.  That's irrefutable science, my friend  ;D

Offline Essen1

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2010, 07:55:48 PM »
Quote
No offense to Ms. Slomon (or you), but my experience directly contradicts this.

No offense to you, either, Scotty, but I have a feeling that you don't really know who Evelyne Slomon is.  ;)

I suggest you read the referenced thread, the link I provided, in its entirety.
Mike

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Online Matthew

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2010, 05:59:06 AM »
No offense to you, either, Scotty, but I have a feeling that you don't really know who Evelyne Slomon is.  ;)

I suggest you read the referenced thread, the link I provided, in its entirety.

I have her book & have read it several times.  I highly recommend it to anyone learning to make pizza.

Matt

Offline Essen1

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2010, 03:46:14 PM »
I have her book & have read it several times.  I highly recommend it to anyone learning to make pizza.

Matt

Matt,

I agree. She also got some other book out, if I'm not mistaken,...something about French Country-style cooking.
Mike

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Online Matthew

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2010, 04:02:23 PM »
Matt,

I agree. She also got some other book out, if I'm not mistaken,...something about French Country-style cooking.

Hey Mike,

I have the Pizza Book.  It was really hard to get a copy in Canada as it's been out of print for some time now.

Matt
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 05:45:54 AM by Matthew »

Offline Essen1

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2010, 05:46:23 PM »
Hey Mike,

I have the Pizza Book.  It was really hard to get a copy as it's been out of print for some time now.

Matt


Last time I checked, it's still available on Amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/Pizza-Book-Everything-Worlds-Greatest/dp/081291113X/?tag=pizzamaking-20

or here:

http://www.allbookstores.com/author/Evelyne_Slomon.html
Mike

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Offline old criter

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Re: How do I make big air pockets (ie voids) in the outer crust??
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2010, 06:05:22 PM »
Book is also available on eBay.