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[ironoxide1]

...OK i have been told by numerous people not to do it...but...i am going to enter the world of commercial pizza! I know there are a ton of pizza places that are closing down...and i have never owned a restaurant of any kind before...but...i think i have a few things in my favor...me and my wife have working in the food industry for a combined 20 years...8 of which is in pizza...i have a taste in mind if i can only recreate it...i have the advantage of not having to pay rent...(my family has an established bar with a kitchen that is not being used)...and i have enough cash to buy the equipment so i wont have to borrow any money...anybody want to try and talk me out of it??? i am all ears...willing to hear any responses...thanks

[Pete-zza]

ironoxide1,

In parallel with your post here, you might also want to register and pose your questions to the membership of the PMQ Think Tank forum at http://www.pmq.com/tt/viewforum.php?f=6. There are a lot of veteran pizza operators at that forum who have addressed issues like yours before.

Peter

[ironoxide1]

thanks for the info

[GotRocks]

ironoxide1,

In parallel with your post here, you might also want to register and pose your questions to the membership of the PMQ Think Tank forum at http://www.pmq.com/tt/viewforum.php?f=6. There are a lot of veteran pizza operators at that forum who have addressed issues like yours before.

Peter

Just get ready to weed through the replies to your posts that are nothing but bashing and smart-assed comments from some members the PMQ tank.
I recently rescinded my membership over there due to some bungholes who whole purpose was to try and bash others.

I hoped to be able to learn and offer my info over there, but sadly it just did not turn out that way.

[Puzzolento]

I'd say recreate the taste in your head BEFORE buying a pizzeria.

When I see a new place, I go in and get a slice. It always stinks, so I don't go back. Okay, nearly always. So if your pizza is bad during the first month, you will lose the people who come during that month to try it. You'll also lose the people they tell.

And if you use fake cheese, you will fail eventually. No one can stand that stuff except for accountants. It doesn't matter how much money it saves you. I say that as a frustrated pizza buyer, not a restaurant owner.

[GotRocks]

And if you use fake cheese, you will fail eventually. No one can stand that stuff except for accountants. It doesn't matter how much money it saves you. I say that as a frustrated pizza buyer, not a restaurant owner.

I have never heard of any pizza shop using a cheese substitute, but I also live in this nations dairy/cheese capitol and I believe there are state laws against that practice. If a restaurant here serves margarine instead of butter and they do not declare it on their menu, they can be cited. It is an old old statute, but still on the books. Heck as early as the 1960's Margarine was outlawed in WI, and when they did allow it it could not be colored, there was a color capsule in the package that needed to be mixed in after purchase to color it yellow. (You can verify this at snopes)

Is fake cheese commonly seen on pizza is other parts of the country? I could not imagine anyone ever using the stuff and thinking they are turning out a good product. I would go ballistic if I ordered a pizza and it arrived at my table covered fake cheese, the person in charge would probably end up wearing it from me throwing it at them.

Oh, good luck with your start up, I may be able to help with your P&L's or menu costing if you want. I am just finishing up my paperwork for the same.

[Puzzolento]

Look up "imitation mozzarella," "pizza cheese" and "non-standard cheese."

Fake cheese is not rare. Domino's uses it. It's not completely fake, but it's not pure cheese, either. Their site admits it. "Part Skim Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized Milk, Cultures, Salt, Enzymes), Modified Food Starch, Cellulose (Added To Prevent Caking), Nonfat Milk, Whey Protein Concentrate, Flavors, Sodium Propionate (Added as a Preservative)." Mozzarella is first on the list, and food starch is number two, so for all we know, this stuff is 50% cheese and 40% food starch. They don't state the percentages. Pizza Hut also calls its dubious topping "pizza cheese." Papa John's doesn't claim its cheese is 100% mozzarella. It says their food is made with "real cheese made from 100% mozzarella," which probably means the same garbage. Of course, Papa John's is disgusting, so it's no surprise that they would use quasi-cheese.

Maybe they can legally call it "cheese," but they probably can't call it "mozzarella." That's why they call it "pizza cheese." Hey, under the law, Velveeta is cheese. I love Velveeta, but don't ask me what's in it.

Any time you see the phrase "pizza cheese," leave and go to another restaurant.

Check this out: http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/101594986/Imitation_Mozzarella_Cheese.html

[Puzzolento]

Here's a snippet from an article about fake cheese. It features some know-nothing lab rat claiming the flavor of cheese isn't important as long as it feels good:

Imitation and substitute mozzarellas can offer substantial cost savings, roughly half the cost of natural cheese. Sadowsky suggests that the performance of imitation is comparable to natural mozzarella because mozzarella cheese provides more mouthfeel and texture with little flavor impact in pizza.

"The flavor might not be quite as clean as what you're used to, but if you were to blend 25% of imitation in with your natural cheese on the top of a pizza, saving 12% on your cheese buy can be enormous if you're buying 25 million pounds of cheese a year," says Sadowsky. "The difference between 'imitation mozzarella' and 'substitute mozzarella' is that a substitute mozzarella is nutritionally equivalent to the natural mozzarella, so it's fortified with vitamins. In many cases it actually has a higher vitamin content than natural cheese does." Additionally, substitute has a slightly higher protein level, around 21%, as opposed to 17% to 18% protein in imitation. "The body isn't quite as firm as a mozzarella substitute, but you really couldn't tell the difference. The average consumer couldn't tell the difference, but there is a nickel or a dime price difference," he says of the lower-protein product.

[Pete-zza]

I think we are getting off topic here unless ironoxide1 is thinking of basing his new pizza business on using fake or imitation or substitute cheese. I also see that ironside1 registered at the PMQ Think Tank and has received inputs on his objective, at http://www.pmq.com/tt/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8633.

Peter

[GotRocks]

Puzzolento,
it is common for a starch to be in the ingredient list of a real shredded cheese, it keep sit from sticking together. When I used to shred cheese for a restaurant I was at, we would coat the loaves with corn-starch before shredded for the same affect.

It is my understanding that imitations are some sort of coagulated oil with binders and emulsifiers.

I do not think I have ever eaten a single slice from domino's, so I got nothing to compare it to.

[Puzzolento]

The standard product for keeping shredded cheese from sticking is cellulose powder. If you'll check the bags at your local store, you'll see it listed, just as it is (along with its purpose) on the chain pizza sites. You won't see modified food starch, which is crap. You also won't see added whey and that other nonsense.

Modified food starch is a thickener, emulsifier, and stabilizing agent, according to Wikipedia. From reading about it, I get the impression that it lets them use watery (i.e. cheap) cheese, because it binds to the water and keeps it from running out onto the pizza. Are there any food chemists on this forum? I'd love to know the answer. If PJ's can add 10% water to their cheese, they can save a pile on cheese bills. And they wouldn't have to list it on their site, since water is a natural part of cheese. You'll notice the site doesn't refer to "low-moisture mozzarella." Just "mozzarella." There has to be a reason for that. Big companies write their ingredient lists to be as flattering as possible without breaking the law.

The list item I love best is "flavors." That could be anything the FDA hasn't outlawed yet. Whoever wrote that must have a sense of humor.
Anyone who thinks they're adding this stuff for some purpose other than stinginess must have more faith in human nature than I do.

It reminds me of the way the big chocolate companies got caught using fake chocolate a couple of decades ago. Their shills told the press the fake stuff was better, because it was shinier and had more "snap," whatever that is. Then they quietly got rid of it, because they had been busted.

Papa John's and Domino's definitely sell bad pizza, and their cheese is definitely bad, so it seems pointless to get into deep discussion as to the precise reason it's bad. Ultimately, the almighty dollar is the reason. They're not as gross as some local places I know, where the "cheese" is clearly not natural. This, and not the lame major-chain "pizza cheese," is what I was originally cautioning the OP about. The really fake stuff dissolves in your mouth and tastes mealy, and customers can tell it's not cheese.

I use Costco shredded mozzarella all the time. It sells for a low $2.19 per pound as of today, and it doesn't contain any of that junk. Domino's must be paying fifty cents a pound for their vinyl-like cheesy composite.

[Pete-zza]

Puzzolento,

I spent considerable time and effort to reverse engineer and clone Papa John's pizzas, as you will discover if you read these threads: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.0.html. I also have a list of the ingredients (now a couple of years old) that I solicited from PJs that discloses the constituent parts of PJ pizzas. That document does not exist at the PJ website. With the exception of the cheeses used by PJ's, I find their ingredients to be of generally good quality, including their flours (which are sourced from the best millers in the country) and the ingredient that go into their sauces, including the fresh-pack tomato products from Stanislaus. You can decide for yourself whether you like those parts of the pizza, or the pizza overall, but apart from the cheeses, I don't see it as a quality issue. If the cheese issue were to be fixed, the PJ pizza would, in my opinion, be a quality product from an ingredients standpoint.

With respect to the cheeses, to understand the cheeses used by PJs and Domino's, you have to understand Leprino Foods, a private company that is perhaps the largest supplier of cheese products to the pizza industry, and a supplier to both PJs and Domino's (I believe they may still be an exclusive supplier to both of those companies). Leprino has a large patent portfolio on their cheeses and it is by reading some of those patents, which I have done on many occasions, to learn what "flavors" and other features of their cheeses constitute. As I have noted before, I believe that the weak link of the PJ pizzas is the cheeses they use. Fortunately, in a home setting I don't have to use cheeses like theirs. Using standard cheeses sold in regular supermarkets will produce a better product. Going to some of the better names in cheeses will produce an even better product in my opinion. I'd like to think that I made a "Papa John's" pizza that is better than the real thing. I am still struggling with finding the right pepperoni to use, but that is another story.

Peter

[Puzzolento]

Bad cheese --> bad pizza, as you know. Their unique Stanislaus sauce is also revolting, but since Stanislaus makes great products, the problem must be the bad recipe required by Papa John's. I never criticized their flour; I use cheap flour and make great pizza.

[Pete-zza]

Puzzolento,

As a Moderator, I get to see the profile of each new member who joins the forum, including the member's favorite pizzeria if stated in the profile. Of the four majors (chains), I would say that the favorite is Papa John's, followed by Domino's, Pizza Hut and Little Caesar's. Pizza sauce, including Papa John's pizza sauce (the one used on the pizzas, not the sauce in the little plastic tubs), is a matter of personal preference. It is sweeter than I would personally like but the rest of the ingredients are pretty standard and the sugar issue can be handled quite easily by just using less. I also found that the PJ clone pizza sauce freezes better than other pizza sauces and remains smoother, which I believe is mainly due to the oils used in the sauce.

Peter

[Puzzolento]

And Miller Lite outsells Dogfish 60 Minute IPA.

[scott123]

And Miller Lite outsells Dogfish 60 Minute IPA.

Are you sure that's the best analogy?  Have you tasted their 60 Minute IPA?  I don't think I've ever seen a company built less on the quality of their products and more on hype.

[Puzzolento]

I was impressed by 60 Minute IPA, although it's a little heavy. But if you don't like it, you can restructure my sentence, inserting any quality beer. As a homebrewer, I have a hard time taking any commercial beer seriously; I just picked 60 Minute IPA because it's excellent by store-beer standards. My point is that bad stuff often outsells good stuff.

People say taste is subjective, but that's not really true. To a certain extent, we develop our food preferences because of environmental factors--the food we're used to--but there are taste preferences that are virtually universal and which appear to be hardwired in the human brain. Papa John's is, objectively, worse than a top-quality pizza. The crust has a texture sort of like a Fig Newton crossed with sponge cake. The sauce has an olfactory note which is a little bit like the sweet, acidic smell of a school cafeteria after a sick kid throws up vegetable soup. Those silly peppers they put in the boxes make the sauce smell worse. And the cheese is just weird.

I think America, today, has a pizza situation that is nearly like the beer situation in 1985. Back then, we drank the worst swill on earth, and most of us would have defended it vigorously. Then the microbrew and homebrewing revolution occurred, and now we have the best beer in the world. American pizza has become degraded by bean-counters at big corporations, and people eat it because they don't know any better. I'll bet that scenario changes. The existence of this board suggests people are not satisfied.

[ironoxide1]

...i am still reading this thread...thanks for everyones input...cheese is a huge part of the flavor...i would never open the doors and serve a product i wasn't proud of...i am a big fan of going the extra mile to make sure that i have superior quality...i currently have purchased a mixer (small one for home use) and am experimenting with dough...i am close to having what i want...i am wanting to use my own sauce and dough recipes and have set a 6 month deadline to complete them...i really am interested in the cheese comments...thanks again

[ironoxide1]

my wife and I have been on a quest to eat at as many different pizza places we can over the next 6 months...the reason for 6 months is that my son is on the traveling little league team and that should be close to the time thats over...then we can really concentrate on pizza...last night we ate at "Bazbeaux" pronounced "Baz bo"...i liked it...they had only 1 crust and it was thin and crispy...my first bite...the first taste that came to mind was tomato...but after that...the strong tomato taste kinda went away and blended better...but that first bite definatly had a strong tomato taste...i liked the generous toppings...i would say that if i was to put a different sauce on it, it would be real close to what i want to serve...has anybody on here ever had Bazbeaux' Pizza? was wondering what you thought... I thought thier cheese tasted gooood too...i couldnt imagine getting extra cheese...that would make it real cheesy...

3 beers
1 diet pepsi
1 order garlic bread with cheese add pesto (yum)
12" pep/sau/onion/banana pepper - 1/2 add mushroom
togo order
16" pep/sau
total bill $53

[GotRocks]

3 beers  ($3.00-$3.75 each ??)
1 diet pepsi ($2.00?)
1 order garlic bread with cheese add pesto (yum) ($5.00'ish?)
12" pep/sau/onion/banana pepper - 1/2 add mushroom
togo order
16" pep/sau
total bill $53

That seems a little expensive to me, do you remember what that 12" & 16" cost?