Reverse Engineering UPN Dough

[hotsawce]

Just wondering, is there a way this preferment (TX Craigs UPN prefermet/dough) can be converted for use of IDY instead of starter?

[thezaman]

 a quote from Anthony that might shed light on his method.
   AM: Nobody makes dough like I do. It’s just flour – it’s got no yeast in it. I make a starter the day before, and then I let it rise naturally. That builds a depth of flavor that’s key. It’s kind of like a sourdough in that respect. Once I make it, I keep it going for about two days, never in a refrigerator. The other factor is knowing how to work the oven. Each pizza cooks in about 60 seconds. I’m using the same oven that I had in NYC, which was handmade and shipped from Naples. It comes from the town where my wife’s grandmother lived. That’s pretty cool. This time around, I had the guys in Italy tile the front for me.

[dellavecchia]

a quote from Anthony that might shed light on his method.
   AM: Nobody makes dough like I do. It’s just flour – it’s got no yeast in it. I make a starter the day before, and then I let it rise naturally. That builds a depth of flavor that’s key. It’s kind of like a sourdough in that respect. Once I make it, I keep it going for about two days, never in a refrigerator. The other factor is knowing how to work the oven. Each pizza cooks in about 60 seconds. I’m using the same oven that I had in NYC, which was handmade and shipped from Naples. It comes from the town where my wife’s grandmother lived. That’s pretty cool. This time around, I had the guys in Italy tile the front for me.

So he is using the Acunto - not the Uno Forno.

John

[BrickStoneOven]

I am pretty sure its a SF oven not an Acunto. I remember seeing the shipping invoice and it had all the details and SF name on the from section. Maybe he meant to say it was the same style not same company. I have been trying to find that damn invoice but I forget where it is, I thought it was on slice but I couldn't find it.

[thezaman]

this is the link to the article if it works  http://blog.zagat.com/anthony-mangieri-on-una-pizza-napoletanas-sf-rebirth

[norma427]

Does anyone know if this was true that, Anthony Mangieri did consult with this pizzeria to help with their pizza.  Some might say that Undici Italian Restaurant in Rumson ‘wood’ go to any length to make the state’s best Napoletana Pizza.

The famed Italian pizza maker spent the better part of the last few months updating their kitchen to create an authentic, Naples style, wood fired oven.

The new oven is part of Pizza Guru’s Anthony Mangieri’s recipe for the perfect Pizza Napoletana.

Undici’s owner, Victor Rallo, envisioned making the state’s best, authentic Pizza Napoletana.  To help make that dream a reality, he hired Anthony Mangieri as his exclusive pizza consultant.

http://www.brianpaschnj.com/20091124-best-pizza-new-jersey/  This was posted on November 24, 2009

Norma

[widespreadpizza]

 AM: Nobody makes dough like I do. It’s just flour – it’s got no yeast in it. I make a starter the day before, and then I let it rise naturally. 


Peter,  did you catch onto this.  thanks for the quote zaman.  Something tells me he might not be the only only one who makes dough like this anymore.  Whoops,  I just mixed equal parts water and 00 flour together..... 

[TXCraig1]

 AM: Nobody makes dough like I do. It’s just flour – it’s got no yeast in it. I make a starter the day before, and then I let it rise naturally. 


Peter,  did you catch onto this.  thanks for the quote zaman.  Something tells me he might not be the only only one who makes dough like this anymore.  Whoops,  I just mixed equal parts water and 00 flour together..... 

A little bird told me that there is at least one commercial place using the recipe I posed in the beginning of this thread.

Craig

[dmcavanagh]

a quote from Anthony that might shed light on his method.
   AM: Nobody makes dough like I do. It’s just flour – it’s got no yeast in it. I make a starter the day before, and then I let it rise naturally. That builds a depth of flavor that’s key. It’s kind of like a sourdough in that respect. Once I make it, I keep it going for about two days, never in a refrigerator. The other factor is knowing how to work the oven. Each pizza cooks in about 60 seconds. I’m using the same oven that I had in NYC, which was handmade and shipped from Naples. It comes from the town where my wife’s grandmother lived. That’s pretty cool. This time around, I had the guys in Italy tile the front for me.

The word "salt" is never mentioned in the recipe. Why is everyone including salt in a clone. If AM is truly using a formula with no commercial yeast, only wild yeast, then salt may have a very detrimental effect on those wild yeast spores.

[kiwipete]

The word "salt" is never mentioned in the recipe. Why is everyone including salt in a clone. If AM is truly using a formula with no commercial yeast, only wild yeast, then salt may have a very detrimental effect on those wild yeast spores.

hmmm. .. I have been making dough with wild yeast exclusively for a number of years now, and it doesn't seem to suffer from salt. I have used up to 3% salt (of flour weight) and have had no problems with both fermentation as well as oven spring. And pretty much all authentic Neapolitan dough is well known for its (fairly high) salt content, so I wouldn't think that AM would do dough without salt.

Peter

[TXCraig1]

The word "salt" is never mentioned in the recipe. Why is everyone including salt in a clone. If AM is truly using a formula with no commercial yeast, only wild yeast, then salt may have a very detrimental effect on those wild yeast spores.

AM specifically mentions using salt in his preferment in the UPN marketing material shown here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9339.msg81103.html#msg81103

There is plenty of literature on using salt with preferments including those with natural cultures. For example:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9339.msg81176.html#msg81176
or
http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm

I also did dozens of experiments with different levels of salt in my preferment which are summarized at the beginning of this topic.

Craig

[Creeper]

I am pretty sure its a SF oven not an Acunto. I remember seeing the shipping invoice and it had all the details and SF name on the from section. Maybe he meant to say it was the same style not same company. I have been trying to find that damn invoice but I forget where it is, I thought it was on slice but I couldn't find it.

http://panjiva.com/Anthony-Mangieri/4239818

[BrickStoneOven]

http://panjiva.com/Anthony-Mangieri/4239818

WOW, Steve is your secret identity DICK TRACEY. I have been trying to find this forever. Now people know I'm not crazy and it was real. Anyway you can see its a SF oven and UPN's address at the top.

[widespreadpizza]

a quote from Anthony that might shed light on his method.
   AM: Nobody makes dough like I do. It’s just flour – it’s got no yeast in it. I make a starter the day before, and then I let it rise naturally. That builds a depth of flavor that’s key. It’s kind of like a sourdough in that respect. Once I make it, I keep it going for about two days, never in a refrigerator. The other factor is knowing how to work the oven. Each pizza cooks in about 60 seconds. I’m using the same oven that I had in NYC, which was handmade and shipped from Naples. It comes from the town where my wife’s grandmother lived. That’s pretty cool. This time around, I had the guys in Italy tile the front for me.

So I mixed flour and water together last night.  No yeast except what is in the flour itself.  Here it is 24 hours later.  I will make dough from it tommorow?  I think?  What do you suppose he means when he says "I keep it going for about two days" ?  Feed it like a starter for two days?  -marc

[Matthew]

So I mixed flour and water together last night.  No yeast except what is in the flour itself.  Here it is 24 hours later.  I will make dough from it tommorow?  I think?  What do you suppose he means when he says "I keep it going for about two days" ?  Feed it like a starter for two days?  -marc

Marc,
He is definitely leaving something out.  There's no way that he makes up a new starter every couple of days, it's far too risky & would make the final product very inconsistent.  I find it very hard to believe that he can keep a piece of old dough going without being refrigerated for 2 days at room temperature.  Give it a try; your dough will taste like vinegar.  I have nothing but the highest respect for Anthony but I don't believe that statement.

[dellavecchia]

It may mean that he makes a new starter every 3-4 days, which makes sense if you do not refrigerate at all. He makes a starter for the dough the next day, and then keeps it going for another 2 days after - after which it becomes too acidic. Then starts again. In the various videos posted online, and in his own menu, he talks about the way they did it "thousands" of years ago. And I remember him saying "please let the pizza be good tonight" in reference to the dough. So his comments might make sense if that is truly the way he is doing it: no fridge and dealing with the inconsistency of wild yeast.

Looking forward to seeing your results Marc.

John

[widespreadpizza]

Matt,  I agree it seems crazy to keep making new starters.   But if he found it worked consistently than why not?  John,  I agree about his statements about how they didi it thousands of years ago.  Also,  its interesting to me when he is quoted as saying I let it rise naturally,  when that was the basis for the title of his short movie naturally risen.  We have yet to see evidence of him using an activated known starter.  I think I am going to feed this this AM and make dough with it tonight.  it has become very active overnight. -marc

[BrickStoneOven]

If you use a starter in a commercial setting aren't you supposed to leave it out at room temp at all times and not refrigerate it? I read an old post of Marco's stating something like that and a feeding time table when you do leave it out at all times.

[TXCraig1]

It seems pretty clear to me that AM is doing some hyping here.

Nobody makes dough like I do. It’s just flour – it’s got no yeast in it.

No commercial yeast anyway.

I make a starter the day before, and then I let it rise naturally.

Nothing new here. He just left out the part about adding the old dough. My guess is he’s not capturing new yeast and creating a new “starter” every two days. I think what he is calling a “starter” most on this forum would call a “preferment.” http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9339.msg81103.html#msg81103 

That builds a depth of flavor that’s key. It’s kind of like a sourdough in that respect. Once I make it, I keep it going for about two days, never in a refrigerator.

I don’t think he’s describing only his starter here when he talks about two days – rather the entire fermenting process (preferment+final dough), which as he describes it (in the link above), takes about two days. 

Craig

[cornicione54]

From reading on other bread-baking websites, I've tried a few "experiments" in this area myself. What I found was:
if you simply mix flour and water and leave it for 24 to 48  hours in a warm place you can observer very rapid activity but it won't be yeast-driven.
 It will be primarily bacteria driven, ( apparently leuconostoc bacteria). These have a tendency metabolise very rapidly and produce some wretched smelling results (think decomposing vegetation and vomit!)  Apparently if you stick with it and keep "feeding" this foul mixture it will eventually become a starter after a week or so but definitely not after 24 hours.

Given the time frame being suggested, I highly doubt this is  the method  Mangieri is using.