Author Topic: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise  (Read 1345 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JeffGoggin

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 25
Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« on: February 25, 2010, 11:09:45 PM »
Hello,

     Just had a quick question about bulk rise/ferment.  I've read as much as I could find about the topic.  Most information is about bulk vs. portioned or about a cold bulk rise...

     ...but I have a specific problem that usually happens when I've experimented with bulk rise.

     When I do a bulk rise (room temp about 68f for about 4 hours) I then portion and keep some out to use (in about 4 hours) and put the rest in the cooler.  The balls that I leave out are tough to stretch.  The ones I use from the cooler (left out for about 2 hours) are also still not easy to stretch (and sometimes are overproofed).  It seems like the gluten just doesn't ever relax after balling bulk risen dough.  What could be the reasons?  Remedies?

Thanks,

Jeff PG


Offline ThunderStik

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 331
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2010, 11:23:54 PM »
It really depends on your recipe. It could just be under-fermented, or it could just be a really dry dough.

Without knowing more about what your doing thats the best i can guess righy now.
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Offline JeffGoggin

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 25
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2010, 11:36:19 PM »
its a ka bread flour...
flour 100%
water 63%
idy. appx. .2%
salt 2.75%

mix everything together
autolyse 20 minutes

then bulk rise room temp 4 hours
then bench rest for 15 minutes
ball
rest for 4 hours
bake

Offline BrickStoneOven

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1594
  • Location: Boston
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2010, 11:38:20 PM »
Are you doing this in a mixer or by hand?

Offline JeffGoggin

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 25
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2010, 11:45:33 PM »
in a mixer...

another note is that this is just my basic recipe that works well with either a straight portion and ready to use in 4-6 hours as well as portion and cold fermentation for 24+...

it's only when I do the bulk rise step that it seems to be much tighter in ball form and hard to stretch...

Offline ThunderStik

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 331
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2010, 11:47:23 PM »
Either way, by mixer or by hand im 99% sure your dough is underfermented.  I use .2 IDY to cold ferm for 7-14 days sometimes.

If you want to use it that short of time you need to up your yeast level.
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Offline JeffGoggin

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 25
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2010, 11:47:38 PM »
*mix on 1 for 8-10 minutes

Offline BrickStoneOven

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1594
  • Location: Boston
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2010, 11:51:39 PM »
I was asking if it was by hand or mixer is because of kneading. How long are you kneading for.

Offline JeffGoggin

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 25
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2010, 11:52:18 PM »
thanks for the input thunder...

the dough does more than double in size in the 4 hours bulk rise... could it still be underfermented with that kind of activity?

Offline ThunderStik

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 331
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2010, 11:57:54 PM »
Yeah, it could be. If it wll last 24 hrs at room temp and not be a nasty goo ball I highly doubt its even close to ready at 4 hrs.

I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)


Offline Bob1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 601
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2010, 08:30:23 AM »
Hey guys,
Just a thought, when you bulk ferment dough for pizza, the gluten starts to develop during that period.  When you ball the dough you are aligning the developed gluten and developing it a little more again.  Therefore I would think with the bulk ferment you are balling with a higher gluten formation causing stiffer balls.  I would think it is a similar process as using a wet autolyse to help develop gluten to shorten knead times.

Bob

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22125
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2010, 09:21:32 AM »
Jeff PG,

In the professional ranks, the prevailing practice, whether for room temperature fermented doughs or cold fermented doughs, is to do the division right after the dough has been prepared. One of the few occasions that I have seen where the dough is divided after a period of fermentation is when the dough is to be run through a roller or sheeter of some kind. I also saw an instance recently where a pizza operator said that he did the division of the bulk dough a day after making the dough and cooling it in the cooler. In that case, which is described in the wa dave post at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8555&p=57598#p57592, the operator used that method because of storage space limitations. That method is almost never used based on what I have read at the PMQTT over a period of several years. You might want to read all of the abovereferenced thread to get additional opinions.

In my experience, if I try to re-ball a piece of dough that is based on using very little yeast (such as your recipe calls for), I usually end up with a dough ball that is overly elastic and hard to open. Sometimes that condition can persist even after a period of several hours, especially in the winter where my room temperature is on the cool side.

Peter

Offline tpassin

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 4
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2010, 08:13:43 PM »
Hey guys,
Just a thought, when you bulk ferment dough for pizza, the gluten starts to develop during that period.  When you ball the dough you are aligning the developed gluten and developing it a little more again.  Therefore I would think with the bulk ferment you are balling with a higher gluten formation causing stiffer balls. 
In my experience, if I try to re-ball a piece of dough that is based on using very little yeast (such as your recipe calls for), I usually end up with a dough ball that is overly elastic and hard to open. Sometimes that condition can persist even after a period of several hours, especially in the winter where my room temperature is on the cool side.


Speaking as a home bread baker, I will bulk rise my dough (I use a very long fermentation period), then divide it and ball it (or as we would say, make preforms).  At this time, I'm looking to form loaves that will hold their shape without slumping as much as possible.  So I often work the dough by stretching it when I form the preforms.  This is pretty effective.  Note that I'm using un-bromated flour.

The dough will develop gluten more the longer it is hydrated - I don't know that the yeast has much to do with it.  Of course, if you put in a lot of yeast and get a lot of rise during this time, the dough will feel different, but within reason I think it's mainly time while hydrated that counts.  Now, some of those new gluten links are weak, and when you stretch they either break and reform stronger, or align and get stronger.  Later, as we know, the gluten relaxes and the dough finally gets more extensible, but that can take many hours.

So I'd say either to work the dough as little as possible when you ball it (the opposite of what I do for bread), or better, divide and ball it as early as possible in your processing cycle.  Or both.

Tom

Offline JeffGoggin

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 25
Re: Problem with dough after Bulk Rise
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2010, 09:07:38 PM »
Tom,

Good call.

I decided to skip the bulk rise altogether since it didn't seem to have a huge impact versus the portioned rise and ferment... I try to always handle the dough as little as possible throughout the entire process.  Thanks for the suggestions.. great input.

Jeff PG