Author Topic: neapolitan pizza making instuction  (Read 4984 times)

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Offline thezaman

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neapolitan pizza making instuction
« on: March 14, 2010, 10:32:54 AM »
 while at amano last week end i was able to watch four pizza chefs from italy in action. they had a very distinct way of handling the dough to get the texture that they desired. the president of the APN was also in attendance ,his organization trains pizza makers on the proper way to handle every aspect of the pizza making and cooking process.  i found a series of instruction on youtube that covers a lot of their methods. i cannot give you the address maybe peter can help but a youtube search for pizzaiolopasquale will bring up his series of videos. he is Japanese but his instruction is very animated and you can learn from his slow motion demos.


Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2010, 11:33:51 AM »
I have watched his videos so many times to learn how to do everything. The two I have watched the most are the one where he is opening the ball into a pie and the one where he is balling the dough. All his videos are very helpful, only if I knew Japanese so I could understand what he was saying.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2010, 11:45:50 AM »
Thank you for the post.  It's fun watching him work.  That guy is a MASTER.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2010, 01:53:39 PM »
Thanks for the heads up. Hopefully, it'll help me develop my skills.

Offline GotRocks

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 02:28:36 PM »
I enjoyed watching, but I have never had any luck balling pizza dough balls in that manner. I have found it works great for breads, but it creates a very tough ball to flatten into a pizza when the outer part is tucked under and pinched like that..
But he was also using Caputo flour with a very high hydration, so that may be the difference. I was using a hi-gluten flour with lower hydration back when I was doing pizza in my early years.

I have always balled my dough by rolling it on a hard surface with one hand to get a satiny exterior and get a nice tight ball that is easy to open up.
Does anyone know of a translator to understand his narrative in the vid's?
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Offline Bobby Martino

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2010, 06:27:03 PM »
I tried the spinach crust technique you described though I left out the fat only boiling and puree the spinach.  The results were good and so were the comments!

Offline thezaman

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2010, 07:43:00 PM »
bob, the recipe he gave was for home oven ,the pizza he made us was done the same way you did it. the story i heard was mr. caputo didn't like the deviation from the traditional formula,but was one of the amano specials that night and it sold out very fast.

Offline Bobby Martino

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 08:13:11 PM »
not surprising that they wouldn't like it given the nature of DOC but it was still a delightful variation and delicous too

Offline simpleman

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2010, 08:44:02 PM »
Thanks for the awesome post.  I'd love to learn how to open dough balls like that.  I've watched a ton of videos but never one with that much emphasis on demonstration.  Now off to make a few thousand dough balls for practice... 

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2010, 07:56:39 AM »
I enjoyed watching, but I have never had any luck balling pizza dough balls in that manner. I have found it works great for breads, but it creates a very tough ball to flatten into a pizza when the outer part is tucked under and pinched like that..
But he was also using Caputo flour with a very high hydration, so that may be the difference. I was using a hi-gluten flour with lower hydration back when I was doing pizza in my early years.

I have always balled my dough by rolling it on a hard surface with one hand to get a satiny exterior and get a nice tight ball that is easy to open up.
Does anyone know of a translator to understand his narrative in the vid's?

Very good videos.

However, that was clearly not an high hydration dough and he is using the red caputo (quite stronger then the pizzeria) which is comparable to am american high gluten minus additives.

I believe he over manipolate the dough ball when forming to show the technique, however the pizzamaker should be in control on how tight the ball forming is. I usually make it tighter if  I need to rest the ball for a long time and less tighter if I need them  sooner.


Offline thezaman

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2010, 08:30:59 AM »
marco, would you say the hydration is around 60 percent. that was the formula they gave durring the dough demonstration at amano. they also used 3 percent salt, with that my dough doesn't have the flavor of amano ,or kestes. could their levels be higher than the vpn standards?

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2010, 09:00:40 AM »
Marco, would you say the hydration is around 60 percent. that was the formula they gave during the dough demonstration at amano. they also used 3 percent salt, with that my dough doesn't have the flavor of amano ,or kestes. could their levels be higher than the vpn standards?

I am not sure what the exact hydration is but surely it is not high hydration; I have said this many times and will bullet point again below:

- The VPN standard is a GUIDELINE (The say this on their Italian website blogs many times) not a recipe. This means that within the parameters you should follow the process but the exact ingredients amount may vary. Aside of the water and salt no one weight the flour in Naples. Yeast is also somehow approximate by portioning a 25g cube of fresh yeast

- The flour amount is subject to change considerably based on the flour humidity and more importantly water composition. A Softer water will absorb more flour whilst an harder water will assorb less.

- Following the GUIDELINE to the letter was an argument that cause some people in America not to like me very much....

EDIT: On the flavor. 3% Salt is around the usual amount recommend by VPN. It is quite possible that Roberto's use that amount. Are you talking about flavor or saltines? I can pinpoint when the salt is on a considerably different level up or down that from what I expect
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 10:38:28 AM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline thezaman

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2010, 10:58:31 AM »
 yes, as you said all ingredients were measured on water weight, the flour was adjusted by feel. my dough flavor and texture doesn't come close to what they were doing. the salt seems to bring a bigger  nutty taste to their dough. the demonstrated  method was a 45 minute bulk rise. it was cut into 9 oz balls formed ,4 to 6 hour rise, then put into the cooler for the use next day. at that time it was given two hours to warm to room temp.
 

Offline scpizza

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2010, 11:42:35 AM »
Marco, thanks for chiming in, always value your insights.

- The flour amount is subject to change considerably based on the flour humidity and more importantly water composition.
I'm finding this especially evident right now during the peak of dry season.  I'm forced to use hydrations literally 5% higher than during the peak of humid season.  This phenomenon makes careful weighing of flour less useful and renders discussions of specific dough hydration levels imprecise.

Another way to think of it is in the humid season a bunch of water trapped inside the humidified flour is being added to the dough accounted for as flour instead of as water.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 11:49:22 AM by scpizza »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2010, 12:33:21 PM »
Cooler? (other point of disagreement with some people over there in the past).

The only time the dough should go in the cooler is any excess dough that due to a slow service would otherwise be wasted. So before it is too late, some time the excess dough is put into the cooler (it makes commercial sense especially abroad where pizza volumes are somehow unpredictable) The VPN document does not talk about fridge so whay the use it in demonstration?

Anyway, the method they show you (depending on the exact amount of yeast and salt) could be an adapted version of preserving the dough as explained above rather then incorporating a fridge rise into the production schedule. As I said in the past the Caputo flour does not lend itself very well to schedule coal rise production.


Another point of clarity is that people should not assume that all VPN places in Italy and America (or Japan) use an high hydration dough... This was the subject of some of my earlier posts 5-6 years ago...


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Offline andreguidon

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2010, 01:33:39 PM »
wen we did the VPN training here in Sao Paulo, it was done at a gastronomy collage, so they had all types of cooling walk in rooms (i dont know what they are called in english) so the dough stayed at 20C always... this was great cause it was easier to calculate the time the dough was ready to bake... it was told by Giulio (the teacher) that dough must never be cold proof or fermented... only in cases as described by Marco... 
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Offline thezaman

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2010, 02:54:14 PM »
so you used a climate controlled area of 68 degrees for your storage. good info.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 04:10:16 PM by thezaman »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2010, 03:50:00 PM »
Some time ago, in a series of posts starting with Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3057.msg25917.html#msg25917 and based on things I had read (and translated) from the Italian pizza forum, I had a running discourse with Marco about cold fermentation applications involving the use of the Caputo Pizzeria flour. Marco made it clear that the Caputo Pizzeria flour is studied for room temperature fermentation applications and is not suitable for cold fermentation, notwithstanding that A16 used the cold fermentation method.  Marco also mentioned the only circumstances in which Caputo dough is likely to be refrigerated, specifically, as a "preserving tool" to preserve the dough so that it is not wasted.

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Offline scott123

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2010, 04:12:42 PM »
The only time the dough should go in the cooler is any excess dough that due to a slow service would otherwise be wasted.

Is this practice done in Italy?  Do they have a name for this excess refrigerated dough? Do they tell customers they're getting a pizza made from yesterday's dough?  One would think that fully fermented and then refrigerated dough would be pretty noticeably different than the non refrigerated, dough, right?  Would the average customer recognize this difference?

Offline scott r

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Re: neapolitan pizza making instuction
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2010, 05:20:03 PM »
I know this is definitely common place.   I have a friend that worked at pizzeria Notizia in naples that talked with me about this practice.   They have one small cooler there.  The final batch of dough balls for the day (they make 3 batches) had some balls reserved and put into the cooler once there was room.  This was done after the produce (which was delivered daily) was cleared out to make space.  They do this so that there is dough to make pizzas during the first few hours of business when the first batch of dough made that day is rising.   He said that he could tell a difference, but it was still very good quality dough.    The key is to know when to put it in the cooler so that there is still plenty of life left in it after spending the night there, and warming up before use.       


 

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