Author Topic: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza  (Read 125771 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline varasano

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 712
  • Location: Atlanta (Bronx born and raised)
  • Seeking perfection
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #325 on: April 30, 2005, 12:01:58 PM »
I'm not using a starter at this time. I will be purchasing the italian starters from sourdo.com pretty soon I think. I'm debating on whether I should buy his book first so I don't mess the starts up, or if the info the starter comes with would be good enough. For now I'm using IDY.

Definitely buy the book.  The info on this forum, including my own descriptions,  is not really a substitute in my opinion.

pftaylor, I'd love for you to get the italian starter and compare.  Just think of how much time that would save me ;-)

Jeff
« Last Edit: April 30, 2005, 12:05:47 PM by varasano »


Offline pftaylor

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1113
  • Location: Tampa, FL
  • Life's Short. Get Wood Fired Up!
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #326 on: April 30, 2005, 12:21:25 PM »
Varasano,
I'm afraid I'm not going to be much help for the next 60 - 90 days as we have two projects which will require constant travel (M - F) on my part. So I would not be able to properly grow a new starter with only being home on the weekends.

In July, after our year-end, I would be able to focus more on pizza related activities. Until then it seems like a stretch to do much more than bake an occasional pie here or there. I wish I had better news but the sober realities of the role I'm in dictate my current plight.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline duckjob

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Anaheim
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #327 on: April 30, 2005, 06:19:05 PM »
Thanks for the nice comments scottr and pftaylor.

I think I'll end up buying the book with the starters if for no other reason that I find the science behing the process kind of interesting.  3 more weeks until I'm done with school, then I'll have much more time to devote to pizza.

Brian



Offline varasano

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 712
  • Location: Atlanta (Bronx born and raised)
  • Seeking perfection
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #328 on: May 06, 2005, 10:00:48 AM »
I made my first batch with caputo pizzeria 00.  It took a lot more flour than the KA I'm used to. It was

Caputo 100.00%
Water 56%
IDY 0.3%
Salt 2.25%

With about 20% of the flour and water coming from the poolish.  It was still very very wet to handle.

I'm doing a 3 day cold rise so I can have a crew watching Desperate Housewives and eating pizza. I let a small piece sit out just to see it warm rise

Jeff

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3102
  • Age: 44
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #329 on: May 06, 2005, 01:12:26 PM »
Let me know if your room temp rise has way more sour flavor than the fridge dough.  The was such a difference between the two in my experiment.  I almost didn't taste it in some of the fridge dough, but that counter rise.......holy S***!

Offline varasano

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 712
  • Location: Atlanta (Bronx born and raised)
  • Seeking perfection
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #330 on: May 09, 2005, 10:45:33 AM »
I have found the fridge rise has more flavor, but I'd imagine that this might vary depending on the culture.  I did not do the counter rise experiment this time. I let it sit, but didn't have time to bake it.

I made the caputo pies. They were very good, but not as good as some of my other experiments. I didn't take any photos, but frankly they looked identical to my usual anyway.  I may try the caputo with a shorter cold rise or go back and try Marco's short warm rise and see how that works out. It's always hard to get perfect results the first time out with new ingredients, so I'm not passing judgement on the caputo.

I will say this. I know I've said this before but it deserves repeating. I know some people are out there obsessing on the kind of flour. AP, Break, Hi Gluten, 00.  I've used all 4 of these in the last 4 months.  And let me tell you - the differences in these products PALE in comparison to the 3 really key factors:
1- the starter used
2- the technique used in making and fermenting the dough
3- the heat

Work on improving everything - the freshest herbs. the best cheese, the best tomatoes, good flour, good salt, etc.  But understand that the 3 above are the largest determinates of your results. 


Offline Artale

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 42
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #331 on: May 09, 2005, 12:01:09 PM »
Jeff,

i am no expert by any means but you said a mouth full no pun intended!
The more i make pizza the more it comes down to making the dough.
The procedure is everything. the right amount of water is also very
high on the scale of things. I have been using your methods for a month
with great results. I told my wife i need a dig camera so i can share
my pics.  thanks jeff

 :D

Offline MTPIZZA

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 273
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #332 on: May 09, 2005, 03:06:27 PM »
I totally agree with Jeff...its the procedure used or techinque used that provides the best end result... many good flours are available at everyones disposal...

Offline pftaylor

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1113
  • Location: Tampa, FL
  • Life's Short. Get Wood Fired Up!
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #333 on: May 09, 2005, 06:11:25 PM »
Varasano,
I mostly agree with your list just not the order it is in.

The mixing and stretching procedures are far and away number one along with skill and knowledge of the home pizzaiolo. It must be tweaked almost on a daily basis depending on a host of factors. It is equal parts art and science in my book.

Followed by extreme heat which can be a great deodorant for screw-ups in key factor number one above. I found out in my recent trip to NY that some of the elite pizzerias rely heavily on their oven and not their skill. A truly hot oven has the capability to produce a glorious pie.

Then things such as preferments and quality ingredients which can add to the experience but cannot possibly save the day if the other two factors aren't right. Get the first two factors right and number three is rendered nearly insignificant.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com


Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 964
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #334 on: May 11, 2005, 08:10:08 PM »
I would like just to point out that is important to mix properly the dough, and there are such factor as oxidating the flour (which increase strenght and water absorbtion), however this doesn't mean that the dough needs to be overworked. I can see from some of your pictures that the crumb is to bready, too dense.

Offline Artale

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 42
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #335 on: May 12, 2005, 10:57:24 AM »
Marco,

do you use a rest period in between kneading?
also from your response you indicate that maybe
too much mixing is the problem creating a denser dough.

What approximate  total mixing time do you use?

thanks,

Artale

Offline duckjob

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Anaheim
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #336 on: May 12, 2005, 02:12:31 PM »
for anyone that is interested this is the process I have been using, and it has consistenly resulted in a very airy, soft and crispy crust.

1 minute -  mix in water and half of flour
20 minute -  rest
5 minutes - gradually mix in remaining flour over five minutes
15 minute -  rest
1 minute - hand knead

I use a kitchen aid stand mixer on the lowest setting.

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 964
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #337 on: May 12, 2005, 05:28:01 PM »
I do use a rest period,

I prefer to work with a fork mixer,

By the way, too much mixing does create a too dense dough and also gummy once cooled...

Ciao


Marco,

do you use a rest period in between kneading?
also from your response you indicate that maybe
too much mixing is the problem creating a denser dough.

What approximate  total mixing time do you use?

thanks,

Artale
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 07:29:05 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline varasano

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 712
  • Location: Atlanta (Bronx born and raised)
  • Seeking perfection
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #338 on: May 12, 2005, 07:33:06 PM »
duckjob, you may actually be mixing too little. 6 minutes total kneading seems light to me.  I don't know what kind of machine you are using, but for a home machine especially, that seems low.  I have best result with 10-15 total time, depending on the hydration and a few other factors. But most of this time is with less than all the flour

Offline Sedagive

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #339 on: May 12, 2005, 10:12:02 PM »
My family roots are located  near tapani just east of that city in a town
called Castellammare Del Golfo.  Me and my wife at such a point would like to take
a trip to Italy and Castellammare will be on the list of places to see.

Beautiful landscape!

Chow!!




My grandfather was from Castellamare del Golfo!  His last name was Galatioto.  Are we related?  lol.    :)

Offline duckjob

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Anaheim
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #340 on: May 13, 2005, 01:42:50 AM »
duckjob, you may actually be mixing too little. 6 minutes total kneading seems light to me.  I don't know what kind of machine you are using, but for a home machine especially, that seems low.  I have best result with 10-15 total time, depending on the hydration and a few other factors. But most of this time is with less than all the flour

Hmm, when I make a batch next week I'll experiment with a longer knead time.  I am using a 6 qt Kitchen aid mixer with the dough hook, and generally make about 50 oz of dough at a time. My hydration percentage is usually 65%.  I'll report back with my findings.

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 4363
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #341 on: May 13, 2005, 08:04:21 AM »
I do use a rest period, which in Naples we call "riposo", but is done once the dough has reached the right consistency (but not texture). We have been doing so for centuries, and it will be described  in full details in my forthcoming book. I let the dough rest for  15-20 and then I turn on the mixer again for a full rotation, one only. The dough change aspect immediately.

Napoletan,

Very interesting about the "riposo". This something I will try on the batch of dough I will prepare this morning to bake on Sunday. After the reposo, do you do anything else before fermenting? For some reason, for all breads and pizzas, after machine kneading I knead by hand for a minute or two just to get a feel for the dough - probably more of a ritual than anything else. 

When is your book coming out? I would love to buy a copy.

Bill/SFNM


Offline varasano

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 712
  • Location: Atlanta (Bronx born and raised)
  • Seeking perfection
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #342 on: May 13, 2005, 11:33:56 PM »
I just put up 3 new photos of a caputo pie at the very bottom of my site:

http://www.think2020.com/jv/recipe.htm

Good pies, but nothing that would make me travel the planet looking for a Caputo distributor.  Read my comments with the photos.

Jeff

Offline Sedagive

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #343 on: May 13, 2005, 11:59:17 PM »
I just put up 3 new photos of a caputo pie at the very bottom of my site:

http://www.think2020.com/jv/recipe.htm

Good pies, but nothing that would make me travel the planet looking for a Caputo distributor.  Read my comments with the photos.

Jeff


Your site is a wealth of great information.  Thanks for sharing it with all of us.   :)

Allan

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 4363
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #344 on: May 14, 2005, 02:56:42 AM »
Good pies, but nothing that would make me travel the planet looking for a Caputo distributor.

Jeff,

I've been using nothing but Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour. It would be great if I could achieve the same results using something easier to acquire like KA Bread Flour. This is something I'll try soon for a side-by-side taste test. And a 6-day fermentation? Never occured to me to go that long. Thanks for a great site with so much useful information - I think your Patsy's sauce is sensational.

Bill/SFNM

Offline varasano

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 712
  • Location: Atlanta (Bronx born and raised)
  • Seeking perfection
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #345 on: May 14, 2005, 02:22:00 PM »
What I'm up against:

I saw a recent survey here in Atlanta of best pizza places. My neighbors here gave Domino's a 9.1 rating out of 10.

God help us all...

Offline PizzaSuperFreak

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 122
  • Pizza SuperFreak! Superfreak!...Rick James, b#@ch!
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #346 on: May 14, 2005, 03:27:02 PM »
varasano,

amen, brother.

Offline BradLovesPizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 32
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #347 on: May 31, 2005, 08:01:02 AM »
Can someone point me to the Patsy's sauce recipe that Bill and others are praising? I'll probably be starting with 6-in-1 tomatoes

Brad

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 4363
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #348 on: May 31, 2005, 09:18:12 AM »
Can someone point me to the Patsy's sauce recipe that Bill and others are praising? I'll probably be starting with 6-in-1 tomatoes

http://www.think2020.com/jv/recipe.htm

Bill/SFNM

Offline Arthur

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 253
  • When Brooklyn Was the World
Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #349 on: May 31, 2005, 09:25:03 AM »
Finally got my shipment of Patsy's sauce - these are the actual cans of crushed tomatoes used at Patsy's in Harlem.  I used them for a surprise party I giving on Friday night.    I made 6 pies using the sauce. 

My comments on the sauce:
- sauce came as crushed tomatoes - not the typical whole peeled.   I still put them through my food processor as I normally do.
- added my usual amount of oregano, salt, pepper
- strained some water from the sauce.

Bottom line.  Tastes just like my typical sauce (have used Vantia, Nina,etc).   

I'm convinced that you can get slightly different tastes - e.g., when I use Bonta or 6 in 1, the sauce has a different / fuller tomatoe-y taste, but all in all the biggest different in taste comes from heat.   When I used a wood burning oven the taste of the sauce is "brighter" because it's not cooked as much.  Bottom line (although I still have a can of Cento DOP San Marzano to try) I will probably stick with Vantia or Nina or other italian whole peeled tomatoes I can get my hands on and add very little to make the sauce.


 

pizzapan