Author Topic: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza  (Read 113341 times)

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Offline duckjob

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #340 on: May 13, 2005, 01:42:50 AM »
duckjob, you may actually be mixing too little. 6 minutes total kneading seems light to me.  I don't know what kind of machine you are using, but for a home machine especially, that seems low.  I have best result with 10-15 total time, depending on the hydration and a few other factors. But most of this time is with less than all the flour

Hmm, when I make a batch next week I'll experiment with a longer knead time.  I am using a 6 qt Kitchen aid mixer with the dough hook, and generally make about 50 oz of dough at a time. My hydration percentage is usually 65%.  I'll report back with my findings.


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #341 on: May 13, 2005, 08:04:21 AM »
I do use a rest period, which in Naples we call "riposo", but is done once the dough has reached the right consistency (but not texture). We have been doing so for centuries, and it will be described  in full details in my forthcoming book. I let the dough rest for  15-20 and then I turn on the mixer again for a full rotation, one only. The dough change aspect immediately.

Napoletan,

Very interesting about the "riposo". This something I will try on the batch of dough I will prepare this morning to bake on Sunday. After the reposo, do you do anything else before fermenting? For some reason, for all breads and pizzas, after machine kneading I knead by hand for a minute or two just to get a feel for the dough - probably more of a ritual than anything else. 

When is your book coming out? I would love to buy a copy.

Bill/SFNM

Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #342 on: May 13, 2005, 11:33:56 PM »
I just put up 3 new photos of a caputo pie at the very bottom of my site:

http://www.think2020.com/jv/recipe.htm

Good pies, but nothing that would make me travel the planet looking for a Caputo distributor.  Read my comments with the photos.

Jeff

Offline Sedagive

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #343 on: May 13, 2005, 11:59:17 PM »
I just put up 3 new photos of a caputo pie at the very bottom of my site:

http://www.think2020.com/jv/recipe.htm

Good pies, but nothing that would make me travel the planet looking for a Caputo distributor.  Read my comments with the photos.

Jeff


Your site is a wealth of great information.  Thanks for sharing it with all of us.   :)

Allan

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #344 on: May 14, 2005, 02:56:42 AM »
Good pies, but nothing that would make me travel the planet looking for a Caputo distributor.

Jeff,

I've been using nothing but Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour. It would be great if I could achieve the same results using something easier to acquire like KA Bread Flour. This is something I'll try soon for a side-by-side taste test. And a 6-day fermentation? Never occured to me to go that long. Thanks for a great site with so much useful information - I think your Patsy's sauce is sensational.

Bill/SFNM

Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #345 on: May 14, 2005, 02:22:00 PM »
What I'm up against:

I saw a recent survey here in Atlanta of best pizza places. My neighbors here gave Domino's a 9.1 rating out of 10.

God help us all...

Offline PizzaSuperFreak

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #346 on: May 14, 2005, 03:27:02 PM »
varasano,

amen, brother.

Offline BradLovesPizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #347 on: May 31, 2005, 08:01:02 AM »
Can someone point me to the Patsy's sauce recipe that Bill and others are praising? I'll probably be starting with 6-in-1 tomatoes

Brad

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #348 on: May 31, 2005, 09:18:12 AM »
Can someone point me to the Patsy's sauce recipe that Bill and others are praising? I'll probably be starting with 6-in-1 tomatoes

http://www.think2020.com/jv/recipe.htm

Bill/SFNM

Offline Arthur

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #349 on: May 31, 2005, 09:25:03 AM »
Finally got my shipment of Patsy's sauce - these are the actual cans of crushed tomatoes used at Patsy's in Harlem.  I used them for a surprise party I giving on Friday night.    I made 6 pies using the sauce. 

My comments on the sauce:
- sauce came as crushed tomatoes - not the typical whole peeled.   I still put them through my food processor as I normally do.
- added my usual amount of oregano, salt, pepper
- strained some water from the sauce.

Bottom line.  Tastes just like my typical sauce (have used Vantia, Nina,etc).   

I'm convinced that you can get slightly different tastes - e.g., when I use Bonta or 6 in 1, the sauce has a different / fuller tomatoe-y taste, but all in all the biggest different in taste comes from heat.   When I used a wood burning oven the taste of the sauce is "brighter" because it's not cooked as much.  Bottom line (although I still have a can of Cento DOP San Marzano to try) I will probably stick with Vantia or Nina or other italian whole peeled tomatoes I can get my hands on and add very little to make the sauce.


Offline quidoPizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #350 on: June 01, 2005, 10:04:51 PM »
glad to see you guy's still at it.  i enjoy many of the posts. and ya'll have renewed . my passion for the perfect pie!!!!!!!!!!  since i've been here. i got back into it a bit. spend some time at my cousins pizzeria. ( even gave him a break a few times for a few hours and found i didn't lose it) i didn't get payed either.  ha ha.. no question it's all in the dough.  i even made a few mixes, ( i wasn't there the next day to try it out) lol  but sure it was workable. as i helped roll it. in a shop it's all about dough management. you have to be able to look, feel, etc. to know your next move. time for raising is so important.  have been making my paper thin sicilian pies at home. that i'm sure are top shelf. even if i screw up on the topping sometimes at least i got the crust down to a science. been down to see jose' a few times and he's still pumping them out.  would love to work with him for an afternoon and and get him to drink a fews beers with me . and let me work that coal oven   this is a good place. and i get some great ideas. keep up the good work   quido

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #351 on: June 05, 2005, 10:44:09 AM »
quidoPizza,
Glad to see that you are back. I have missed your unique insights into the world of NY pizza making.

Next time you are at Patsy's make sure you tell Jose that he got me good on the sugar thing. I owe him for that one. The only way he can make up for his sly deception is to make a classic Patsy's Pizza for me. Reheated of course!




Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline Sour_Jax

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #352 on: July 23, 2005, 08:56:26 PM »
This thread has improved my home pies in such a way that I can't even believe it. Although this thread has laid resting for over a month, I need to revive it once again.

The Pizza Raquel and Patsy's recipe both call for 2 "heaping" Tablespoons of preferment which is about 8%. If I want to let's say double or even triple, or more the amount of preferment used. How can I do that (mathmatically) without messing up the overall hydration level of the dough. I realize that if I double or triple the amount of preferment it will change the over all hydration level.

Using the pizza recipe in Ed Wood's "Classic Sourdoughs" (that is if my math is right) the %'s are.

Flour 100% (4.75 c)
Water 36.8% (1 c)
Starter 95.8% (2 c)
Salt 1.35% (1.5 t)
Oil 4.5% (2 T)

Now, for example, if I don't want to use 2 cups of starter (or the 2 T in Patsy's), instead I want to use 1/4 c of starter (in either recipe) how do I adjust the flour and water weights to compensate for the change.

I made a recipe today but don't want to waste to the flour to find out if it works, perhaps some of you can check my recipe mathmatically to see if it will still have the same overall hydration level.

Flour 100% (16.9 oz.) About 3.75 c
Water 60% (10.14 oz.) about 1.3 c
Starter 15% (around 2.5 oz.) about 0.25 c
Salt 2% (0.33 oz.) about 1.75 t
IDY Yeast 0.25% (0.04 oz.) about 0.5 t (it's actually more like .4 t)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #353 on: July 24, 2005, 10:41:07 AM »
Sour Jacks,

I have reviewed your calculations but have not been able to determine how you arrived at the baker’s percents for pizza dough recipe from Ed Wood’s book (at page 118). After trying several times last night to come up with numbers that looked like yours, I was about to give up and come back to you for clarification. Then, purely by accident, I stumbled upon pages 200 and 201 of Ed Wood’s book in which he recites the assumptions he uses for converting volumes of the liquid culture, flour and water to weights. While I think his number for flour is too high and his number for water is too low, I nonetheless used his assumptions rather than mine (after all, it is his book and his recipe). The Wood assumptions are as follows:

1 c. liquid culture = approx. 9 oz.
1 c. flour = 5 oz.
1 c. water = 8 oz.
The liquid culture = 48% flour and 52% water

Using the above assumptions and my own conversion data for salt and vegetable oil, plus doing some additional calculations, I get the following:

2 c. liquid culture = 18 oz. = 8.64 oz. flour (48% of 18) and 9.36 oz. water (52% of 18)
4 3/4 c. flour = 23.75 oz. (4 3/4 x 5)
1 c. water = 8 oz.
1 1/2 t. salt = 0.30 oz. (1 1/2 t. x 0.196875 oz./t.)
2 T. (6 t.) vegetable oil = 0.99 oz. (6 t. x 0.0.1645833 oz./t.)
Total dough weight = 51.04 oz. (for four 12-13-inch pizzas)
Individual dough ball weight = 12.76 oz. (51.04/4)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10-0.11 (medium thickness)

Combining the flour and water from the basic recipe with the flour and water in the liquid culture leads to the following, including baker’s percents:

100%, Flour, 32.39 oz. (23.75 oz. plus 8.64 oz.)
53.6%, Water, 17.36 oz. (8 oz. plus 9.36 oz.)
0.93%, Salt, 0.30 oz.
3.06%, Vegetable oil, 0.99 oz.
Total dough weight = 51.04 oz.

It will be noted from the above that the hydration for the liquid culture itself is 108.3% (9.36/8.64). The hydration for the basic flour and water in the recipe is 33.7% (8/23.75). However, the combined hydration (total hydration) is 53.6%, as noted above.

Now, if you decide to reduce the amount of liquid culture from 2 cups in the above recipe to 1/4 cup, as you postulated in your post, the net effect of doing that is to reduce the total weight of the dough from 51.04 ounces to 35.29 oz., a difference of 15.75 ounces (18 oz. minus 9 oz./4). The practical implications of doing this is to either reduce the number and/or sizes of the pizzas that can be made from the reduced amount of dough (or to reduce the thicknesses of the pizza crusts). To avoid doing this and distorting the recipe, it is necessary to get the total weight of the dough back up to 51.04 ounces. This is done by adding 7.56 oz. of flour back to the recipe (15.75 oz. times 48%) and by adding 8.19 oz. of water back to the recipe (15.75 oz. times 52%). Doing both of these brings the recipe back to normal--where it started—and all of the baker’s percents as noted above remain unchanged.

The same analysis applies to the Patsy's recipe (and the successor Raquel recipe developed by pftaylor). However, if you decide to increase the amount of preferment (liquid culture) in the Patsy's recipe to 1/4 cup, as you postulated in your post, you will then have to adjust downward the amounts of flour and water recited in the recipe so that the total dough weight remains the same. Without knowing what the hydration percent is for the preferment, you will be unable to determine the precise final hydration percent for the recipe. However, I’m reasonably certain that pftaylor maintains his preferment at a fairly uniform consistency and knows how to use it to achieve consistently good results. Even if he is off a bit, the differences are not likely to be significant.

Turning now to the recipe at the bottom of your post, it appears to be workable from the perspective of the baker’s percents. Your recipe calls for 15% starter, which is reasonable for a pizza dough. The rest of the baker’s percents are also in line. So, you should not have a problem with the recipe itself. However, unless you know the hydration for the starter, you will not be able to accurately determine the total hydration for the recipe. I was recently faced with the same problem. The way I solved it was to make two small dough balls, each about the size of a walnut. The first dough ball was made from combining and kneading a mixture of flour and water that was equal to the hydration percent of my recipe (in that case it was 43%). To make the second dough ball, I took a quantity of my preferment (with an estimated hydration of around 100%) and gradually added and kneaded in an amount of flour that produced the same feel and texture of the dough ball with the known hydration percent. This may seem like a crude approach, but you will be surprised how close you can come to getting the two dough balls to feel almost identical. Once this condition is achieved, then all that remains to be done is to weigh out the amount of the preferment called for in the recipe (15% of the weight of flour in your case) and combine it with the rest of the ingredients in the recipe.

If you would like to see in a bit more detail how I used the preferment in the situation I mentioned, see Reply #22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1585.20.html. You might also find it helpful to look at Reply #5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1593.0.html. In that post you will see a recipe that I developed for fellow member Les to make a 15-ounce version of a Lehmann dough using a poolish (and a bunch of other things) without changing the underlying hydration percent for the Lehmann dough. The part that I think you may find helpful is the way the flour and water in the basic recipe and in the poolish are combined and how the hydration percents are calculated and used.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 10:58:04 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Sour_Jax

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #354 on: July 24, 2005, 11:15:51 AM »
My assumptions were:

Flour   1 c.   4.57 oz.
Water   1 c.   8.00 oz.
Salt   1 t.   0.196 oz.
Oil   1 t.   0.164 oz.
Sweetner   1 t.   0.14 oz.
ADY   1 t.   0.133 oz.
IDY   1 t.   0.106 oz.
Starter   1 c.   10.4 oz.

This probably threw my math off. I have since change the starter weight to 9 oz.
Size- 12
TF 0.108
Weight 12.2
# of Pizzas 4
Flour   100.00%   21.71   4.75   c.
Water   36.85%   8.00   1   c.
Starter   82.92%   18.00   2   c.
Salt   1.35%   0.29   1.5   t.
Oil   4.53%   0.98   6   t.
Yeast   0.00%   0.00   0   t.
Sweetner   0.00%   0.00   0   t.

This is how the math now comes out perhaps I'm not calculating correctly somewhere. I didn't break the starter down into flour and water and go from there, should I be doing it that way?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 11:17:33 AM by Sour_Jax »
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Offline Uptown

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #355 on: July 24, 2005, 11:25:04 AM »
Can someone tell me where I can order/purchase the Patsy's Sauce from.
Thanks.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #356 on: July 24, 2005, 12:43:08 PM »
Sour Jacks,

I went through the rigorous analysis so that you can see how everything fits together mathematically and otherwise. The main reason you would break down the starter into its flour and water components is to be able to determine the hydration figure for the entire recipe. Ed Wood tells us what the breakdown of his liquid culture is but most people don't manage their starters to be able to determine how much of the starter is flour and how much of it is water. Hence, they have no good fix on its hydration. Consequently, what most people do is to follow their basic recipe, add some preferment, and then add additional flour and/or water to get the dough to the desired final condition. But doing this increases the total dough weight. Theoretically, the amounts of the other ingredients (e.g., salt and oil) should also be adjusted (using the respective baker's percents) but this is rarely done. So, the dough is altered from what was originally intended. If you were a professional baker, you couldn't operate like this because the results would be inconsistent. Most bakers manage the starters so that they have a fixed hydration, in most cases the same as the hydration figure for the underlying dough recipe. That is the reason I gave you the example of how to do this using the two dough ball method for a preferment of unknown hydration.

In the case of the recipe I developed for Les, I had to break down the poolish into its constituent components so that Les would know how much poolish to make and how much flour and water would be needed. A poolish is easier to work with than a preferment of unspecified hydration since, by definition, a poolish is made up of equal weights of flour and water, to yield a hydration of 100%. If Les had decided to use a random preferment, I would have instructed him to use the two dough ball method, which would have obviated the need to break down the preferment into its constituent components.

In your most recent recipe, based on the 82.92% hydration figure you indicate, unless my math is wrong I calculate that the total flour weight for the recipe is 31.55 ounces (21.71 oz. plus 9.84 oz.) and the total water weight is 16.16 (8 oz. plus 8.16 oz.) That combination yields a hydration figure of 51.2%. If that is what you are looking for, then you should be OK, however a hydration of 51.2% is low for pizza dough you appear to be contemplating and the crust won't be like a Patsy's crust or a Raquel crust, both of which have thickness factors considerably less than for your recipe. Since you posted under the Patsy's thread, I assumed that your objective was to emulate a Patsy's crust.

Peter

Offline Sour_Jax

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #357 on: July 24, 2005, 01:40:40 PM »
I'm still working on my pizza math, but I think I'm getting closer to getting it right.

Well my goals here are two fold.
1) be able to control the recipe in every way (mathmatically at least)
2) create a pie comparable to Patsy's, Raquel, or even Lehmanns.

I played with my spreadsheet a little and have come up this new recipe
Flour-16.5 oz. or 3.3 c. [17.93 oz. (total flour/including starter)]
Water-66.63% (total hydration) 10.4 oz. or 1.3 c.   [11.94 oz. (total water/including starter)]
Starter-24.87% 2.97 oz. or 0.33 c.   
Salt-1.64% 0.29 oz. or 1.5 t.   
Yeast-0.19% 0.03 oz. or 0.25 t.   
Sweetner-2.54% 0.46 oz. or 3.25 t.   

I'm posting this while I let the mix rest for 20 min.  I let everyone know how this comes out.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #358 on: July 24, 2005, 01:51:35 PM »
Uptown,

There was some discussion of the Patsy's pizza sauce in several earlier posts in this thread, and it appears that Patsy's (the East Harlem location) is currently using ground tomatoes from a wholesaler by the name of Sassone Wholesale Groceries. I don't know if they sell direct to the public, but you can try calling them if you are interested. See http://www.foodservicecentral.com/BuyersGuide/CompanyProfile.asp?CoID=358485.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 02:11:43 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Uptown

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #359 on: July 24, 2005, 05:43:11 PM »
Thank you for the information, Peter. I will give it a try.



 

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