Author Topic: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza  (Read 110841 times)

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Offline Randy

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #400 on: March 16, 2006, 10:59:18 AM »
Just a thought Bill.

Great picture Luis.

What is the wood of choice for a pizza oven around the world?


Randy


Offline tonymark

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #401 on: April 17, 2006, 11:08:01 PM »
Last Thursday I created my first 3 minute pizza on my Big Green Egg (BGE) utilizing varasano’s Patsy’s culture. 

You can read more about the oven setup and procedure here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,412.msg25941.html#msg25941

Dough recipe (330 g dough balls for 13" pie):

100  % KA bread flour
62.5 % Water
15    %   Patsy’s culture
2.25 % salt

Sauce:

Cento Tomatoes pureed and strained
Locatelli Romano
Pinch sugar
Pinch salt

Cheese:

Polly-o whole milk mozzarella (not low moisture and not fresh in water)


Retarded dough for 3 days in fridge.  I did pull it out for about an hour on day 2 to give it a little boost because it seemed a little slow to me (bubbles minimal).  Removed from fridge 2 hours before bake.

I was experimenting with procedure and the first 2 pizzas were not quite right, but the 3rd pizza (Gorgonzola, pineapple and good balsamic) was perfect.  It cooked in 3 minutes.  I had never seen oven spring like that.  I am really on to something here.

FYI – I have no idea how close to Patsy’s pizza I am since I have never had their pizza, but this pizza was pretty good.  it is still not the same as Jeff’s pizza, which I had a few weeks ago.

I did not include a cross section picture, because none of those pictures were good specimens.

TM



« Last Edit: April 17, 2006, 11:14:13 PM by tonymark »
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Offline tonymark

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #402 on: April 20, 2006, 05:22:21 PM »
Well, it looks like I cracked my BGE at these high temperatures.  You can read more about me getting a free replacement here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,412.msg26038.html#msg26038.

All of these high temperature experiments on the BGE are now over.  I really thought I was about to achieve something great.

Back to 7 minute pizzas ...

TM
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Offline pftaylor

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Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #403 on: October 07, 2006, 12:43:02 PM »
Varasano,

I'm happy for you. It’s not often one of our fellow members gets positive press. You are finally getting the recognition you deserve for all your efforts to recreate NY style pies at home. But I feel as if I'm confused more now than ever.

First, I wasn't aware that Patsy's pizza was your goal anymore. Is it? In my view there is little in common between what you are producing today and what Patsy’s serves.

When I started the Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza thread shortly after you joined the forum, we both thought Patsy’s produced the best pie available. I'm no longer of that opinion. Surely your creations have far surpassed the original by now as well. Further, your style, like mine, is so loosely based on NY style pies that they are hardly recognizable anymore as Patsy clones. And why would they at this juncture? With the collaboration of the membership here we were able to easily surpass every aspect of a Patsy's pizza.

I started dating Raquel after conclusively determining a number of our upfront assumptions completely incorrect. The most famous of which was perhaps their lack of quality ingredients or was it their lack of using a starter? It doesn't really matter because in the end, we were able to prove Patsy's operated like most all the other coal oven joints in NYC - High heat, cheap ingredients, little attention to detail and lots of hype. They still produce a better product than the chains but not by much. Certainly their product cannot hold a candle to what I can produce in my TEC 800 degree grill or you with your rigged 800 degree oven.

Finally, I’m curious as to whether you had an opportunity with Slice and/or the Canadian radio station to highlight your association with pizzamaking.com and all the members who contributed to finally decoding the actual recipe and process employed by Patsy’s.




« Last Edit: October 07, 2006, 01:09:11 PM by pftaylor »
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Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #404 on: October 10, 2006, 03:56:38 PM »
Hey pftaylor,

First let me compliment you on your post about Chris Bianco’s place.  No post ever made me want to get on a plane and visit a pizza place more than that. Very alliterative!

You raise a lot of questions, so I’ll try to give a bit of background on my goals.

When I first started my pizza quest in 1998 the information available was very limited. There were a few books I read but I quickly realized that they were no help at all. Mostly my quest consisted of seeking out the best places and trying to guess what they did by asking a few questions or looking around at brands, etc. But mostly it was just hard headed trial and error, mostly error. There was progress and there were a few major breakthroughs for me over that time. I took a tour of a local bakery and talked for 30 minutes to the head baker and that really helped me a lot. This was how I learned how to windowpane properly and later I discovered when that was and was not important.  I found out about sourdough cultures and read Ed Wood’s book – Ed’s work was very influential, and even though I don’t use a lot of his processes or any of his cultures and even though his customer service has been, to be polite, not that great, I always credit him on my site and refer customers to him.  Just over two years ago I started online research and joined a bread-making yahoo group and they turned me on to the DLX. Also, my own experimentation was yielding a lot of progress at that time. 

Although I was seeking to reproduce Patsy’s taste, I realized early on that reproducing their methods 100% was impossible.  I don’t have a huge Hobart mixer, nor a huge brick oven. Therefore I had concluded that cloning their pie may require multiple changes. But this didn’t mean it wouldn’t be as good. As an experienced home cook, I began to notice that I could exceed all kinds of restaurants in some areas, even if I couldn’t duplicate them in others.  With Patsy’s for example, I was pretty sure that they did not do a 3 day rise. But they had the extra flavor of a brick oven, so maybe I could compensate for my lack of a brick oven by improving the fermentation techniques.  I was pretty sure they used hi gluten flour because I saw the side of bag there once, but my tests came out best with bread flour. So while I was trying to make the best pie I’d had, and my gold standard was Patsy’s, I was not necessarily locked into the idea that I could only do this by reproducing their methods 100%.

This time was a period of intense experimentation with little guidance. It was during this period that I blew out 3 food processors and one heavy duty mixer. I almost melted my neighbor’s grill and my toaster oven. I also broke my oven lock once (internal damage that needed repair) and shattered the glass twice. I had my kitchen fill with smoke multiple times. I also tested over a dozen brands of tomatoes and almost as many flours - cake, 00, AP, bread from many brands. I was having cheeses mail ordered to me in dry ice boxes at $75 a batch. On trips to NY I got samples of Patsy’s dough twice and Johnny’s dough once and started to culture them. I also experimented with punch downs, multi-stage dough building (like Ed Wood), oil, sugar, vitamin C, NY water, oven broilers, multiple starters, fresh yeast, etc. Many individual steps in the process took months to master and even longer to piece together into a coherent formula that all worked together.

Finally, after over 6 years of experimentation, I developed a formula which I and others felt was right. At this time, I started taking photos and created my website. I posted my formula – stressing the top 3 factors of Heat, Starter & Mixing Technique - up on a bread-making board. The whole formula included at that time:
-   800F temps using the cleaning cycle with foil to protect the glass
-   Higher heat from the top using foil
-   Natural sourdough culture
-   Multi-day cold rise, instead of Ed Wood’s 85F proofing box technique
-   KA Bread flour
-   No oil
-   No sugar
-   No additives, such as malt or dough conditioners
-   High salt
-   Filtered water
-   Pre-Mix hydration period
-   Wet mix (gradual flour add) using a  DLX
-   Post-Mix rest period
-   Much wetter dough than any recipe I’d seen
-   No punch down step – single rise only
-   Less than double rise
-   Garden grown Basil
-   Strained and deseeded Cento Tomatoes (Non-DOP) with romano cheese

After getting threatened with legal action on a bread board because of the cleaning cycle thing, someone on that board suggested pizzamaking.com as a place I might share ideas. I found this site and posted a link to my page with the above formula. Two months later, this thread began.

This was an interesting thread. I was happy to coach and unlike Marco, to share everything I knew with others. I was happy to provide my starter to you and a few others who like me sought to make a Patsy’s style pie.  It was a period of intense activity and in just 3 ½ weeks of starting this thread, Pete, you announced that you had made a pie that was to your satisfaction – by then there were over 11 pages here! During this time there was a lot of debate and there were a few conclusions on this thread that I could not agree with. The primary one being the use of Hi Gluten flour, which while it may be part of Patsy’s current recipe, simply did not test best for me. As I said, I had long previously concluded that I may have to vary from the Patsy’s formula in one area, to compensate for differences in another. I was not surprised, though, when Evelyne reported recently that the old timers used 12-12.5 and not 14% flour.

During this period I felt that my dough was more or less complete and this allowed me to move on to the sauce where I developed my tomato-rinsing technique, which I’m sure Patsy’s does not use, but which many now swear by. The thinking behind this technique was to compensate for the acid and tinny taste added by the canning process and return to a fresher tomato taste. I’ve also tried making my own cheese. My cheese supply problem continues to be my biggest drawback and I continue to seek out a better olive oil.

Since joining this board I have altered my formula by using Caputo 00. I now blend in about 25-50% caputo with the KA Bread and I’m still open to the idea that I may either increase or decrease that number based on future tests. I’ve also learned from Marco, that warm rise is possible provided you start with a tiny amount of yeast. However, this requires a lot of dough management and experience and as Marco says “there is no recipe” only a master’s touch. So while I now agree that this is workable, I don’t think that it has tested better than the cold rise and I certainly know that the cold rise is a whole lot easier to do for the home baker and easier to yield consistent results. The formula that I give on my site includes the original cold rise technique.

As far as Patsy’s goes. I don’t agree that Patsy’s is nothing special. There are 60,000 pizza joints in the U.S. and I’ve had most of the best and the single best pie I’ve had was out of Patsy’s oven. In my book, that makes them special, by definition. I have to give credit where credit is due. I would not have my current formula if Patsy had not done what he did as a model.  Certainly neither Lombardi’s nor Grimaldi’s nor John’s has kept the flame alive. I credit Patsy’s with doing that. And like with Ed Wood, I always give them credit, even though I may not choose to follow all of their methods. On a good day, I can beat Patsy’s. But I don’t make pies everyday and consistency is difficult.  As far as ingredients go, I do not slight Patsy’s for using cheap ingredients. As I have said from the beginning, good ingredients are important, but the primary issue is one of technique.  To me, that is my biggest contribution to this board, although I still think that I have not persuaded many. The search for the perfect ingredient or piece of equipment is, for most people, an attempt to shift responsibility from their own lacking technique onto an inanimate object. Obviously, I don’t include you and Chris Bianco in that because you are actually trying to take responsibility for the ingredients and that’s a whole different level. However, the very fact that Patsy’s produces a pie which is acknowledged by many as superlative, using ordinary ingredients, I think bolsters the main point I’ve tried to teach – it’s about technique.

So Pete, my goal is not to reproduce Patsy’s methods 100%. I may not have said it clearly here, but I think I gave up on that goal long before I came on the internet. I was certainly interested in knowing what they did, but I can’t do what they do, so knowing all of that does not dictate my formula. I can make a pie nearly identical to theirs using my formula. Technique variations compensate for ingredient or equipment variations. Technique is they key. I posted up recently, excerpts from my course on mastery. There’s another section of that that maybe I’ll post someday; Individual factors of any skill can be learned, but the ability to improvise – to overcome variations in circumstances, such as having different ingredients or equipment – is the hallmark of mastery, whether it be music, sports or any field. Marco echoes this when he says for the old masters, “there is no recipe”, by which he means that every day is an improvisation because there are too many factors to nail down. I am not a master at pizza making. I have improvised for the Patsy’s recipe, but a true master would have all the variables need to switch from one type to another at any time. That would take a lot more time to master than I have.

My repeated references to Patsy’s on my site are an attempt to give credit where credit is due, to talk about a model from which much can be learned, and to compare my result with their gold standard. I’m equally impressed with Johnny’s in Mt. Vernon, NY, but I don’t talk about them as much because I’ve chosen to focus on one style, out of lack of time to really be a jack of all trades.

Wow, this was too long. Another successful attempt to procrastinate from my day job…
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 08:14:58 AM by varasano »

Offline Finnegans Wake

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #405 on: October 10, 2006, 04:14:48 PM »

After getting threatened with legal action on a bread board because of the cleaning cycle thing, someone on that board suggested pizzamaking.com as a place I might share ideas. I found this site and posted a link to my page with the above formula. Two months later, this thread began.


A very informative thread it is, too.  And I was just thinking that my inaugural attempts at pizza making would be doomed by the restraints of my oven... Hmmm... foil, eh?  The legal action reference makes me wonder what the heck happened there...  :-D  I'm imagining someone in an ER with a crotch full of exploded oven glass... 

Thanks again for all the great info.  I may just run with the slightly lower temperatures for my first few... 
Education: that which reveals to the wise, and conceals from the stupid, the vast limits of their knowledge. --
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Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #406 on: October 10, 2006, 04:47:46 PM »
In case you are interested in third degree burns:

http://www.think2020.com/jv/recipe.htm

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #407 on: October 11, 2006, 10:26:13 AM »
varasano,
Interesting response. Thanks for sharing your vision. I would have guessed that your greatest contribution was completely different than what you mentioned. Yes you have contributed greatly to the technique perspective but that is but one splinter of the bigger picture. I was thinking bigger. Much bigger. In my opinion what separates you from the rest of crowd is your willingness to experiment and think outside of the box. In a word it is your intent.

Your strategy or approach to solving home pizzamaking constraints is what separates you not your tactics or technique. Tactically speaking, your approach is far from being technically perfect but your intent is unsurpassed. I believe that if one's intent is pure than it can overcome most flaws in execution or preparation. 

You have managed to couple a few powerful tactics which the average home pizza maker couldn't even think of. In my mind, once I understood your intent then it was easy to understand your tactics. Things like clipping off your oven's door hook was brilliant. Why, because it was such an elegant solution to getting 800 degree heat in one's home. Your intent here was to get to high heat in the home and you came up with a cheap solution which nearly anyone in the world (with enough guts) could replicate. I spent $2K to solve my problem which you solved with a $5 pair of tin snips. That's true value. That's true innovation.

That's remarkable.
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Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #408 on: October 11, 2006, 10:28:27 AM »
Varasano wrote ”As I have said from the beginning, good ingredients are important, but the primary issue is one of technique.  To me, that is my biggest contribution to this board, although I still think that I have not persuaded many”
Well, Varasano, you have persuaded me! 
Even nowadays I am using other formula than Patsy´s, and I had never used the window pane test, the autolyse method and some of your technical is definitively (and happily) incorporated on my dough.
“As an attempt to give credit where credit is due” I must to recognize that I first learned the basics on pizza on your site, luckily enriched by had founded the Pizzamaking.com terrific site.
Please, do not stop to contribute here as long there are avid readers waiting your participation.

Luis

Offline David

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #409 on: October 11, 2006, 11:49:54 AM »
On trips to NY I got samples of Patsy’s dough twice and Johnny’s dough once and started to culture them.

I'm still intrigued by this one Jeff,and I believe it was an unanswered question that PFT raised some time ago? Do you wish to enlarge on this?I recall Marco suggesting that he was in some way pursuing this idea.
I enjoyed your post Jeff and your openness,but fully respect it when the likes of Marco, Bianco etc. play their cards close to their chests.They have "Property to protect".I for one would choose a similar tight lipped path if I were in their position.I do obviously find it frustrating on an open forum when a knowlegable contributor decides to drop you a bone purely as a tease,but I guess that is partially a marketing ploy (and it works !) that I have to respect .I firmly believe that wether or not they would admit to it,many of the countries top Bakers/Pizza makers are or have lurked on this board to garner a crumb.In this day and age of IT they would be doing themselves a great disservice if they weren't.Sadly IMO,though improving,the general state of Pizza has a long way to go.Even the much lauded well intentioned Artisan Pizzerias sprouting like crab grass often leave much to be desired,and it can't be due to lack of information,but implementation of the correct tools, procedures and FOCUS.By comparison I have found no other (English language) forum as focused on it's goals as this one.I have never had the time (nor desire,sadly) to delve into Deep Dish,Cracker or most of the other myriad of styles represented here as it would take me away from my focus where I still find so many unanswered questions.Thanks,
                                                         David
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #410 on: October 11, 2006, 12:07:46 PM »
Jeff,

I was wondering whether you have ever tried making your dough without using the rest periods. The reason I ask the question is because the best doughs I have ever made from the standpoint of handling and being essentially rip-free, almost without exception, used a natural preferment. In some cases, an autolyse or similar rest period was used, but in some cases it wasn’t. In some cases I used supplemental commercial yeast (IDY) but in other cases I did not. When I used rest periods, I didn’t detect a significant difference whether I used the classic Calvel autolyse or another form of rest period. What seemed to be the constant throughout the best results was the natural preferment. To be sure, I had some lesser handling doughs when I used a natural preferment but I think in most cases it was because I was new to using natural preferments (most of my early work was at room temperature) and I perhaps allowed the doughs to overferment and become too extensible. I haven’t tried your formulation as much as pftaylor’s original “Patsy’s” dough formulation and its successor Raquel formulation, but some of the best results I achieved with the dough was using those formulations. Interestingly, at pftaylor’s suggestion, when I tried using the Raquel dough management with the basic Lehmann dough formulation, but using commercial yeast only, I did not get particularly noteworthy results.

As you know, pftaylor started out his reverse engineering exercise using a basic dough formulation posted by ilpizzaiolo (Ron). With input from many of the forum’s members, including you, that formulation was greatly enhanced, especially in the use of a natural preferment, even though the premise—that Patsy’s was using a preferment—turned out to be faulty. That aside, I know that pft’s results improved when he started using your “Patsy’s” starter, as he noted himself at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg10278.html#msg10278. To be sure, there were differences from what you were doing at the time. As recorded in this thread, which I read in its entirety over the weekend, pftaylor used a different configuration of mix/rest periods than you were using at the time, a different flour (KASL), a different mixer (a basic KitchenAid mixer), a different baking system (a high-temperature grill), and he also incorporated dough handling procedures he got from Jose at Patsy’s. He was also using a different percent of preferment than you. I believe that, at the time, you were using 40-42% preferment whereas pftaylor was using 8%. I know you guys have debated the differences in your formulations and techniques but it seems the results achieved by both of you were, and continue to be, quite similar. And at the center of the good results, even with the differences, is the natural preferment. Which brings me full circle again on whether it is the natural preferment that is the most important part of your respective dough formulations from the perspective of creating anti-rip doughs, maybe even to the exclusion of the rest periods. I would also be interested in knowing whether you ever tried pftaylor’s “Patsy’s” or Raquel formulations and methods and, if so, what results you got.

Peter

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #411 on: October 11, 2006, 12:17:49 PM »
Jeff,

As an added note to my last post, I do not mean to suggest that rest periods do not produce good result or that they should be omitted. I was talking primarily in the context of the factors that are most responsible for producing the rip-free dough. I have made doughs using autolyse or similar rest periods but using commercial yeast instead of natural preferments and I did not get the rip-free doughs. In that resped, they were like any other doughs I made without rest periods.

Peter

Offline David

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #412 on: October 11, 2006, 12:22:29 PM »
Peter,
Sorry but i don't recall and i don't have the time to go back and read the whole thread right now,but were comparison records kept of water , Flour , OTH , Room Temps kept by anyone?I think these are all variables that may well have as dramatic effect on the quality of the final dough characteristics in conjunction with the type of leavening agent?
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #413 on: October 11, 2006, 12:31:06 PM »

I enjoyed your post Jeff and your openness,but fully respect it when the likes of Marco, Bianco etc. play their cards close to their chests.They have "Property to protect".I for one would choose a similar tight lipped path if I were in their position.I do obviously find it frustrating on an open forum when a knowlegable contributor decides to drop you a bone purely as a tease,but I guess that is partially a marketing ploy (and it works !) that I have to respect .
David

David, thanks for mentioning this.

Let me clarify for all the forum something and why I adopted the approach used now:

You know that I started writing on the internet few years ago on pizza.it. Well, at the time, i was quite open on numerous subjetcs as I was to a lesser extent at the beginning on this forum for the same desire od promoting Pizza Napoletana and traditional breads. This was also the time that I started organising all my research to write a book Then I was left burnt:

A guy opened a pizzeria ans start promoting it as authentic out of knowledge acquired on that forum. The product is nowhere authentic, but he believe so as he had "studied" my posts.. tHIS FOR ME WHENT AGAINST WHAT i WAS trying to achieve as  the wrong product was sold as Pizza Napoletana and what is more he is making money out of poor customers... Another guy started a bakery out of private messages he exchanged with me. Now his making loads of money... no credits nor retribuition was ever given to me.... Then I thought this is not working...

I do not really do it for marketing, trust me as I have very little time to spare for consultancy and have to refuse most. I recently had to put someone in the queue for September 2007 (I know there are sceptics out there, but when the time will come I am sure he will let this story go public as part of his opening campaign).

That is for now.

Ciao

PS to answer also another message, the book is on hold and being revised and only a smaller version with no cover of my personal method, will be published within the next 2 years

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #414 on: October 11, 2006, 12:40:55 PM »
David,

At the time, Jeff favored the King Arthur bread flour. He also used a slightly higher hydration but I believe he may have accounted for it differently in the baker's percents. pftaylor's preferment was respect to the weight of flour but if you added the flour and water components to the formula flour and water it increased the "effective" hydration level. However, I don't think that the hydration levels materially changed the overall results. pftaylor scrupulously weighed his ingredients whereas Jeff operated more by feel, and pftaylor took note of finished dough temperature. In the totality, I don't think these factors accounted for the dough quality that I described. Since then, of course, there have been other changes, although they are fewer in pftaylor's case.

Peter

Offline David

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #415 on: October 11, 2006, 12:46:56 PM »
Peter,
Sorry but i don't recall and i don't have the time to go back and read the whole thread right now,but were comparison records kept of water , Flour , OTH , Room Temps kept by anyone?I think these are all variables that may well have as dramatic effect on the quality of the final dough characteristics in conjunction with the type of leavening agent?

Sorry Peter I think you missed my point to to my wording?I was referring to ONLY the temperatures of each component :
Water , Flour , OTH , Room during production
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Offline scott r

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #416 on: October 11, 2006, 12:56:45 PM »
Jeff,

I was wondering whether you have ever tried making your dough without using the rest periods. The reason I ask the question is because the best doughs I have ever made from the standpoint of handling and being essentially rip-free, almost without exception, used a natural preferment. In some cases, an autolyse or similar rest period was used, but in some cases it wasn’t. In some cases I used supplemental commercial yeast (IDY) but in other cases I did not. When I used rest periods, I didn’t detect a significant difference whether I used the classic Calvel autolyse or another form of rest period. What seemed to be the constant throughout the best results was the natural preferment. To be sure, I had some lesser handling doughs when I used a natural preferment but I think in most cases it was because I was new to using natural preferments (most of my early work was at room temperature) and I perhaps allowed the doughs to overferment and become too extensible. I haven’t tried your formulation as much as pftaylor’s original “Patsy’s” dough formulation and its successor Raquel formulation, but some of the best results I achieved with the dough was using those formulations. Interestingly, at pftaylor’s suggestion, when I tried using the Raquel dough management with the basic Lehmann dough formulation, but using commercial yeast only, I did not get particularly noteworthy results.

As you know, pftaylor started out his reverse engineering exercise using a basic dough formulation posted by ilpizzaiolo (Ron). With input from many of the forum’s members, including you, that formulation was greatly enhanced, especially in the use of a natural preferment, even though the premise—that Patsy’s was using a preferment—turned out to be faulty. That aside, I know that pft’s results improved when he started using your “Patsy’s” starter, as he noted himself at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg10278.html#msg10278. To be sure, there were differences from what you were doing at the time. As recorded in this thread, which I read in its entirety over the weekend, pftaylor used a different configuration of mix/rest periods than you were using at the time, a different flour (KASL), a different mixer (a basic KitchenAid mixer), a different baking system (a high-temperature grill), and he also incorporated dough handling procedures he got from Jose at Patsy’s. He was also using a different percent of preferment than you. I believe that, at the time, you were using 40-42% preferment whereas pftaylor was using 8%. I know you guys have debated the differences in your formulations and techniques but it seems the results achieved by both of you were, and continue to be, quite similar. And at the center of the good results, even with the differences, is the natural preferment. Which brings me full circle again on whether it is the natural preferment that is the most important part of your respective dough formulations from the perspective of creating anti-rip doughs, maybe even to the exclusion of the rest periods. I would also be interested in knowing whether you ever tried pftaylor’s “Patsy’s” or Raquel formulations and methods and, if so, what results you got.

Peter



The past two months I have had more time to experiment than usual.  One of the things I wanted to accomplish was a better understanding of the effects of mixing times and autolyse.  I have come to the conclusion that the shorter mixing times are greatly aided by the autolyse.  Makes sense.  If we aren't mixing for long then we need that time for the flour to fully hydrate so that it can properly start producing the gluten strands.  With the shorter mixing times I get more large (but random) voids, and a crispier product.  That crispness comes, however, with the side effect of a potentially tougher crust.  I say potentially because I was able to get a few pies that were soft, but things just were not as consistent.  Again, this makes sense, as I think certain parts of the dough were worked more than others by my mixer.

Now when I did a nice long slow mix I reached a point where the dough sort of toughend up in the mixer.  If I took a short kneaded dough and a long kneaded dough and put them in your hand you would think the long kneaded dough had a much lower hydration.  This was very good for shaping/not sticking to the peel etc.  With these long kneaded doughs I really didn't find much difference when employing an autolyse.  In fact, I may have actually liked the non autolysed version a bit better, but either way there was no need for it in my eyes.  Not only did the long kneaded doughs handle just as well as the short knead/autolyse doughs, but the finished product was more tender and generally very consistent.

All these experiments were done with caputo flour and a long 18-22 hour room temp fermentation and a riposo at the end, so I am not sure if it will all translate to King arthur fridge rise doughs etc.  I am just starting to understand the differences between the the deformation energy (W) specs of of flours, and I am sure that will effect my mixing regimen along with other things.  I would love to see some others experiment with a really long knead in their kitchen aid.  I am talking 20-30 minutes.  The best way to do this is to add the flour just to the point of starting to clump up around the dough hook and let it go.  With our standard home mixers (DLX included)  incorporating all of the flour could give you a ball that is just stuck to the hook or bouncing around the mixer, and that wouldn't really be mixing.

Peter, I have definitely found that using wild yeast (natural preferment) is a huge factor in how the dough handles and how the consistency of the baked crust ends up.  I have always assumed that it was the acidic nature of the dough when a preferment is used that helped things out?   Whatever is going on to make it that way, I am not sure, but in every way the preferment doughs always win out in my kitchen.  I can't imagine baking without them. 

So at least for now.............. Longer kneads, wild yeast, and no autolyse for me.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 01:00:29 PM by scott r »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #417 on: October 11, 2006, 12:59:10 PM »
David,

Now I see what you are getting at. pftaylor took note of finished dough temperature and, depending on whether it was higher or lower than desired, he would suggest in his instructions that the water temperature be higher or lower the next time. To the best of my knowledge, he did not take the temperature of the different ingredients or use machine friction factors to calculate the water temperature required to achieve a desired finished dough temperature. I don't recall that Jeff did any of those things either. Since Jeff's current use of high hydration and wet doughs, I believes he feels that there is little heat buildup in the dough during mixing, kneading, etc.

Peter

Offline David

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #418 on: October 11, 2006, 01:50:56 PM »
David, thanks for mentioning this.

Let me clarify for all the forum something and why I adopted the approach used now:

You know that I started writing on the internet few years ago on pizza.it. Well, at the time, i was quite open on numerous subjetcs as I was to a lesser extent at the beginning on this forum for the same desire od promoting Pizza Napoletana and traditional breads. This was also the time that I started organising all my research to write a book Then I was left burnt:

A guy opened a pizzeria ans start promoting it as authentic out of knowledge acquired on that forum.
The product is nowhere authentic, but he believe so as he had "studied" my posts.. tHIS FOR ME WHENT AGAINST WHAT i WAS trying to achieve as  the wrong product was sold as Pizza Napoletana and what is more he is making money out of poor customers... Another guy started a bakery out of private messages he exchanged with me. Now his making loads of money... no credits nor retribuition was ever given to me.... Then I thought this is not working...

I do not really do it for marketing, trust me as I have very little time to spare for consultancy and have to refuse most. I recently had to put someone in the queue for September 2007 (I know there are sceptics out there, but when the time will come I am sure he will let this story go public as part of his opening campaign).

That is for now.

Ciao

PS to answer also another message, the book is on hold and being revised and only a smaller version with no cover of my personal method, will be published within the next 2 years

Marco,
Though I understand your frustration and your Goals,from the information quoted,I think many people would have difficulty understanding how you personally feel burned because of contributions you made along with other forum members?
For example ,If someone goes out and takes a VPN approved course,uses approved ingredients and follows (By their belief?) the correct method to produce a particular style of Pizza (Neapolitan)how is it  personally your responsibility and reflective upon you if in your opinion they don't get it right? You are but one of many who contribute to such forums.How can you determine that the guy opened his Pizzeria /started a business purely on information garnered from you?I study your posts with great interest,but also have found Teo,Stefano,Raf,Scott,Peter,Jeff etc. etc. and others to be of interest and contributing to my bank of ideas and knowledge.I believe your degree of knowledge is evident and without question,but I'm sure others do not quite get it.Should I ever decide to open a Pizzeria and it not be to your standard ,are you accountable?I don't believe so,unless that is I hired you as a cosultant,chose not to follow you guidance,yet still promoted my product as authentic.The other point is that i may totally disagree with you and have a different opinion as to what is truly representative of Neapolitan Pizza?
To be honest I was a little surprised at your comments regarding the quality of the Pizza produced at this years Pizzafest.If not one Pizzeria out of over 30 Neapolitan pizzerias represented can produce a Pizza that you consider representative of a quality fit to call GOOD,then really what hope is there for anyone outside of Naples (never mind Italy !!) in their endeavor to produce such?Positioning yourself as an Authority and Consultant on Pizza Napoletana I understand your need to maintain the highest benchmark for the product you champion, but if the majority ( and i say that because if not even One of Pizzerias at the festival reached you benchmark) in Naples are not producing something you consider worthy then what chance does Pizza Napoletana really have of true representation worldwide? I can go to any number of Fish + Chip shops in England and find food that is representative of of English Fish & Chips,however only a handfull of those are really Great at any given time,and many of the others I would consider acceptable and representative.I have yet to find ONE place in the USA that manages to get it right? Close.......but not right.Is this your opinion of Pizza Napoletana Marco?In my opinion the Pizzas I tasted at the Pizza Fest were equal to and/or better than any I have had in the US.Thanks for your input,
                                                                                                                                                       David
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #419 on: October 11, 2006, 06:15:43 PM »
David, the guy actually quotes exactly a recipe, methodology and timescale I had explained on that forum.... I was also contacted in private from old forum members that had been in that pizzeria and told me what they thought about his "marketing"... Anyway, you missed my point and the burning wasn't purely that one.

I am not talking about accountability, if that was I would have stopped writing to any degree.

Teo, Stefano and the rest do not know and did not know the Pizza Napoletana subject. Ciro and myself have prove this on that forum many times... teo was talking about spiral mixers in Naples..... You will never see those in traditional places..

About the pizzafest: One of the major sponsor was as disappointed as me because of the quality due to not managing to involve any elite pizzeria... so do not be surprised... but again it is inside info you do not seam to appreciate. In Naples there are thousands and thousands of pizzeria...  30 or less did not represent even a sample.... Also disagree with me? Not disrespect but you need to know the Napoletana to disagree with me. Again is not only me that makes those comments, I am the only one writing these in English, but in Naples there are plenty of old timers that says so. They do not even know the internet and will never even write on an Italian site. It was refreshing getting Ciro to partecipate on pizza.it....

Again you missed my point, I will reconsider my partecipation/contribution to this forum, as I have already done on other sites. 

Thanks