Author Topic: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh  (Read 3200 times)

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Offline mooncrickett

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problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« on: March 22, 2010, 04:58:10 PM »
Greetings all, First let me start off by saying, Thank you...I have learned so much about making pizza from this forum, It opened my eyes to a whole new world of pizza....secondly I am born raised in Queens NYC for 27yrs till I joined the Army. I have become so sick of Pappa Johns, Domino's, Pizza Hut...so on. Being that Iam now down south, the pizza I grew up on does not exist so I decided to make my own pizza.

I first googled NY Pizza to get a recipe and I came across Jeff V's site and recipe, so I went with that. I ordered some KABF and sordo starter, then took a crack at it........first batch of dough was very wet and sticky, after three days of the dough in the fridge the dough never rised....I followed his directions and recipe to a T. threw dough away...

Then I stumbled on Pizza forums, I spent about two weeks reading and it was a new outlook on pizza. I followed the Lehmann recipe but with a twist from a thread I found from Petezaa to pizza girl, using KABF instead of  KA high gluten......I used my active yeast from sourdo instead of IDY.....also I used the yeast conversion chart found on this site to compensate for the difference of yeasts......after 10hrs of the dough sitting on the counter, again no rise.....

Now I am wondering what I did or am doing wrong, I was able to get my yeast nice and active after two feedings and used it while it was spongy and about doubled in size........either Iam using two little yeast or my yeast is not good or iam not kneading the dough properly properly...

I followed (a) a recipe from a member crusty exactly as he described and (b) from petezaa, Lehmanns exactly as he described.....am lost
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2010, 05:33:48 PM »
What type of water are you using?  Bottled/filtered water or tap water? 

That's weird that you would not get any rise at all.  The only thing that comes to mind is that you are using tap water and the chlorine is killing off your SD starter. 

Try again and use 1/4 tsp ADY/IDY with about 1 Tbs starter per 14" pie (about 300gm).  That should work.  Knead dough, let it rest for about 20min-2 hours at room temp, put in fridge in a covered  lighltly oiled plastic container  or plastic ziplock bag for 1-2 days.  If you see tiny air bubbles through the bottom of the clear container, then your yeast is active.

Take out, let proof at room temp on a lightly oiled plate, covered loosely with plastic wrap for 4-6 hours prior to stretching and baking. 

Even if you get no rise after proofing, try baking it anyway to see if you get any oven spring.  But really you should see some rise. 

Online scott123

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2010, 05:34:53 PM »
Mooncrickett, although working with sourdough is a worthy endeavor, I can pretty much guarantee you that your favorite pizzerias from your youth never used a starter.  It was some form of commercial yeast, be it IDY, ADY or cake.

At some point, you will probably get to a point where you will be making pizza a lot better than what you had as kid and want to move into more advanced, artisan techniques like sourdough, but, for now, I'd stick to the basics.

IDY (or ADY), bromated flour, a good, thick, conductive pizza stone (cordierite is the best sub $100 choice), the hottest your oven will go, and a digital scale for dough consistency.

I'm not saying you absolutely have to have all these things to match that magical taste from your childhood, but they will make your quest a lot easier.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 05:37:36 PM by scott123 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2010, 06:20:08 PM »
mooncricket,

In addition to what the others have said, you might want to post the exact recipe you have been using and how you make and manage your dough through to baking. That might provide some more clues to things that you might be doing wrong or might be improved. We have had several members with "Crusty" in their users names and there are countless Lehmann recipes so it is not clear exactly which recipes you have been using. I'd also be curious to know which yeast conversion chart you used to "compensate for differences in yeast". Is it the one at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm?

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2010, 08:37:40 PM »
Then I stumbled on Pizza forums, I spent about two weeks reading and it was a new outlook on pizza. I followed the Lehmann recipe but with a twist from a thread I found from Petezaa to pizza girl, using KABF instead of  KA high gluten......I used my active yeast from sourdo instead of IDY.....also I used the yeast conversion chart found on this site to compensate for the difference of yeasts......after 10hrs of the dough sitting on the counter, again no rise.....

My go-to recipe is:
1000g flour (100%)
610g water (61%)
30g salt (3%)
5-25g Ischia culture depending on room temp (0.5-2.5%)
     [5g for 78-79F in the summer to 25g for 68-70F in the winter]

Mix using the VPN technique.

The dough shows very little signs of rising after 10 hours. It's generally ready to bake in 24 hours.

Craig


« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 09:45:27 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline mooncrickett

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2010, 03:04:11 PM »
mooncricket,

In addition to what the others have said, you might want to post the exact recipe you have been using and how you make and manage your dough through to baking. That might provide some more clues to things that you might be doing wrong or might be improved. We have had several members with "Crusty" in their users names and there are countless Lehmann recipes so it is not clear exactly which recipes you have been using. I'd also be curious to know which yeast conversion chart you used to "compensate for differences in yeast". Is it the one at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm?

Peter

yes sir, that is the conversion chart I used...I will post the recipe that I used, it was from crusty on the Lehmann ny pizza thread.
The perfect lover is one who turns into a pizza at 12:00 p.m

Offline mooncrickett

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2010, 03:39:21 PM »
I can not find that thread again that contains the recipe...I did in fact use pete zaa's exact mixing and kneading, tech. explained on the first post of Lehmanns NY style......can anybody kindly suggest a good recipe using KABF and active yeast starter.....would like to make 16" pies......just to put me in the right direction.......I understand that pizza dough back home were probably made using IDY, however I already have the sitting in my fridge waiting + it was not cheap.....Thank you all for your help and replies
The perfect lover is one who turns into a pizza at 12:00 p.m

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2010, 05:28:21 PM »
mooncricket,

I believe that the "Crusty" dough formulation you have in mind is the one contained within a series of Replies numbered 107 to 117, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8589.html#msg8589. I believe the specific dough formulation is given in Reply 113 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8700.html#msg8700. If that is correct, from your posts it sounds like you were trying to modify that dough formulation to use KABF instead of KASL and to use a natural starter or preferment instead of commercial yeast (IDY in this case). Is that correct? I don't how you used the yeast conversion table at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm?, but that table can only be used to do conversions between IDY, ADY and cake yeast, not from those commercial yeast forms to a natural starter. I'm guessing that you used that yeast table to do conversions between the abovementioned commercial forms of yeast, not to somehow calculate a corresponding amount of natural starter to use. Is that correct?

With respect to a dough formulation that you can use to make a 16" pizza using your natural starter, for example, along the lines of the Crusty NY style dough formulation referenced above, it would help to know what the composition of your starter is, in terms of the weight of flour and water that you regularly use to feed and maintain that starter. With that information, it should be possible to use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.htmlto come up with a test dough formulation for you to experiment with.

FYI, I played around with the Crusty's dough formulation as referenced above and, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, came up with the following dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (65.2542%):
IDY (0.2251%):
Salt (1.25132%):
Olive Oil (1.00887%):
Total (167.73949%):
334.53 g  |  11.8 oz | 0.74 lbs
218.29 g  |  7.7 oz | 0.48 lbs
0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
4.19 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
3.37 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
561.14 g | 19.79 oz | 1.24 lbs | TF = N/A

The above numbers may be a bit different than what Crusty used since the expanded dough calculating tool did not exist when Crusty posted in the Lehmann thread. I would use a lower hydration if KABF is used and I would perhaps use more salt. I calculated a thickness factor for Crusty's dough and it is 0.098444. That would place Crusty's pizza in the NY street style--or NY slice--category.

As you deliberate, you might also take a look at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6969.msg59844.html#msg59844. In that post, I presented a hypothetical example of a Lehmann NY style dough formulation (which is similar to the Crusty dough formulation) that is based on using a natural preferment. I believe that example should help you respond to the questions I posed above in terms of what you may want to do.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 06:17:39 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline mooncrickett

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2010, 08:19:06 PM »
Thank you pete, everything you said in your last post is pretty much dead on the money, I used the Italian starter from sourdo. and have been feeding with 1/2 cup tap water and 2/3 cup KABF to reactivate it, it is about 2 mo. old in the fridge, but it reactivates pretty well..... I dont really want to stay along crusty's path, rather just get on the road to a good NY style pizza recipe using the KABF and natural starter that I currently have.......but my hats off to ya for being dead on......thank you sir any help is much appreciated for i am dying for a taste of home without driving 1,200 miles(which I will do again in June)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2010, 09:39:20 PM »
mooncrickett,

I used the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with a dough formulation for you to play around with. For this purpose, I used the data you provided on your starter and estimate that the water percent of your starter is about 56%. Using the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, I came up with the following natural preferment version:

Total Formula:
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (1.75%):
Total (163.75%):

Preferment:
King Arthur Bread Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
King Arthur Bread Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:

317.99 g  |  11.22 oz | 0.7 lbs
197.15 g  |  6.95 oz | 0.43 lbs
5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
520.7 g | 18.37 oz | 1.15 lbs | TF = 0.09135
 
 
27.98 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs
35.61 g | 1.26 oz | 0.08 lbs
63.6 g | 2.24 oz | 0.14 lbs

 
290 g | 10.23 oz | 0.64 lbs
161.54 g | 5.7 oz | 0.36 lbs
5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
63.6 g | 2.24 oz | 0.14 lbs
520.7 g | 18.37 oz | 1.15 lbs  | TF = 0.09135
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.09; dough is for one 16" pizza; Preferment used at 20% of total flour weight; water percent of Preferment = 56%; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As noted above, I used a thickness factor of 0.09. That is typical of a NY street style pizza. Should you wish to have a thicker or thinner crust, you can use the preferment dough calculating tool to make that adjustment. I noted the values I used in the tool in the Note following the above table so that you will have all the information you need to modify the dough formulation given above. You will also note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. That value is for a standard home stand mixer. If you will be using hand kneading, I would use a bowl residue compensation of 2.5%. You will have to use the preferment dough calculating tool to make that change.

For dough preparation and management purposes, you might want to read Reply 151 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774. I used an autolyse for the dough discussed in that post, but you can skip it if you would like. However, if you elect to use the autolyse, I would autolyse all of the flour and water, not just a fraction of each. I also used a plastic storage bag to store the dough in the refrigerator. You can use a lidded plastic or glass storage container if you'd like.

Since I estimated the water percent of your preferment based on the volumes of water and flour you say you use to refresh your starter, you may find it necessary to tweak the flour and/or water to get the proper finished dough condition. Some people also like to use a bit of commercial yeast in the dough to get a better oven spring. If you would like to do the same, you can use the preferment dough calculating tool to do this. But I would keep the amount of commercial yeast on the low side. Otherwise, the commercial yeast can compete with the natural preferment and reduce its impact on the final crust, including the flavor of the finished crust.

To a large degree, your success with the above formulation will depend on the state of readiness of your preferment and it leavening strength. Consequentially, you may want to note the progress and performance of your particular preferment in case it becomes necessary in the future to increase or decrease the amount of preferment used.

Good luck.

Peter


Offline tcarlisle

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2010, 07:26:43 PM »
Wouldn't a better starting point be to start off making the Lehmann dough precisely as it is and get familiar with how that works before trying to modify it?

Offline mooncrickett

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2010, 06:18:39 PM »
I have used the recipe twice that Pete suggested in post #9 but am noticing that the dough is too elastic and shrinks back after trying to stretch out, making the shell is a little difficult....any ideas or suggestions?
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2010, 07:15:32 PM »
How long are you proofing the dough for before stretching?  Any idea what the dough temp is prior to stretching?  Does it feel room temp or cool or cold?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2010, 08:01:22 PM »
mooncrickett,

Can you tell us how you have been preparing and managing the dough? Also, have you been re-working, re-kneading or re-shaping the dough before trying to open it up to form a skin?

Peter

Offline mooncrickett

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2010, 08:38:34 PM »
Yes Sir.  First I poured the water into the bowl with the salt and whisked until salt dissolved. Then added all flour and natural starter and mixed with kitchen aid hook attach. for 2 min.( noticed the dough balled up high on the hook) removed dough and let sit 30 min. after 30 min I then hand knead on the counter for 8-15 min. then put in oiled bowl.....1st attempt let rise in oven 10hrs. dough and pie was good. 2nd attempt let rise in fridge 2 days..no rise, tried to make biscuits with it came out like rocks. 3rd attempt crust was alittle harder and chewy.....also noticed crust was pale....wondering if a little sugar would help... 
The perfect lover is one who turns into a pizza at 12:00 p.m

Offline mooncrickett

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2010, 08:40:19 PM »
How long are you proofing the dough for before stretching?  Any idea what the dough temp is prior to stretching?  Does it feel room temp or cool or cold?
my kitchen is a steady 65, oven is 70
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2010, 08:55:08 PM »
2nd attempt let rise in fridge 2 days..no rise

mooncrickett,

How long did you let the dough remain at room temperature (or in a 70 degrees F oven) before using? Also, since you did not answer my question about re-working the dough before using, can I assume that you did not do so?

Peter

Offline mooncrickett

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2010, 09:04:17 PM »
mooncrickett,

How long did you let the dough remain at room temperature (or in a 70 degrees F oven) before using? Also, since you did not answer my question about re-working the dough before using, can I assume that you did not do so?

Peter
let dough rise for aprox. 10hrs at 70, I did not re work dough before using, besides maybe a little tom foolery with my little girls
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2010, 09:56:53 PM »
let dough rise for aprox. 10hrs at 70, I did not re work dough before using, besides maybe a little tom foolery with my little girls

mooncrickett,

I perhaps should have been clearer. What I meant to ask is how long did you let the dough that was in the refrigerator warm up (temper) before using. Was that ten hours also?

Peter

Offline mooncrickett

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Re: problems with my NY Pizza... urrrrghhh
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2010, 10:18:45 PM »
mooncrickett,

I perhaps should have been clearer. What I meant to ask is how long did you let the dough that was in the refrigerator warm up (temper) before using. Was that ten hours also?

Peter
no Sir, was about 1 hr
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