Author Topic: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three  (Read 37307 times)

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Offline Lydia

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #120 on: May 10, 2012, 09:36:43 PM »
Dan

Don't know "how" relevant it is, but my earliest ad for Shakey's, Sacramento mentions only one beer and its Black Bavarian beer.

Other than that, I have good handful of early american recipes using hops and yeast to make "Bakers or Bread yeast". I think one mentions a bathtub  :-D I'm sure I have in my notes somewhere, what hops AB uses, so maybe this is an option.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #121 on: May 10, 2012, 10:58:03 PM »
If it's the same as the one from Sprecher Brewery, that didn't come on the scene until around 1985.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Bavarian

Interestingly, the founder is a former employee of Pabst. Which I had forgotten about actually. They have a huge label lineup of now defunct beer companies from the same scene in the Milwaulkee area that dates back to the turn of the century. They also made a lot of malt liquor as well. I'm learning that not all yeasts can make a malt liquor due to the alcohol content. It takes a very hearty yeast.

They didn't have the "Bohemian" Carlsberg strain at my LHBS so I had to order it. Should be able to pick it up and grow some this weekend. I grew up some LeSaffre S23 Lager strain last night to fire up the rig. I'll post some pics soon.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #122 on: May 10, 2012, 11:40:17 PM »
Don't know if I should post this here or not, but since we're on the conversation of yeasts that are not available to the retail user, I figure some people might want to make their own!

I am using an older version of the "yeast hog 1000" setup from http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/products/The-Yeast-Hog-1000-%252d-Yeast-Starter-Lab.html

Not a bad little deal if you consider the cost of a stir plate. I seeded the flask with ~1/3 cup of LME from Muntons here: http://www.muntons.com/homebeer/other-products/canned_wheat_malt.asp The guy at my LHBS felt that the "maltiest" flavor comes from wheat malts. I don't know one way or the other, since I am not a brewer, so I bought it. Stickiest stuff I have ever seen. Anyway about 1/3 cup in 800 mls water.  I also added some Wyeast nutrient powder. Not sure if I needed that, but I am shooting for maximum cell density here. Mix it all up and seed the flask with some dry yeast Lesaffre S23 lager yeast. I let it go 24 hours and it smells absolutely fantastic! I almost wanted to taste it! Now that I know I can grow it, I need to try the pastorianus strain this weekend. The pictures below are the setup and harvesting of the yeast. I got about 15g of fairly wet fresh yeast. It smells great. Much stronger than typical ADY. Not sure about gassing power yet. I'll have to make some pies this weekend too.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #123 on: May 10, 2012, 11:41:11 PM »
Letting gravity do it's work, you end up with this......

Offline Lydia

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2012, 11:33:37 AM »
Have you tried using small quantities of rye to boost yeast colonization yet? Yeast just loves rye for some reason. (all I have found about it, is a bunch of assumptions) You don't really taste the rye, unless you over do it, but it enhances the flavor. Maybe could be the lacking flavor component too.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #125 on: May 11, 2012, 01:43:30 PM »
Dan,

That is a cool deal right there....I hope you come up with something good. Are you still thinking that "the smell" is created from the dough rather than a secret "smelly" cheese?
Also, is there a metal "agitator" bar that goes into the beaker and is then magnetized to the vibrating base you put it on? Jus try'in to visualize how that thing works....thanks.

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2012, 02:56:09 PM »
Bob - I don't know the source of "the smell" lol, but I figure I should exhaust the yeast as a possibility since I have the ability to do so. The yeast hog is pretty neat. If you look at the picture with the funnel and no liquid, you'll see the stir bar. It's basically a nylon coated magnet that sits in the flask. The little base plate is a stir plate that RebelBrewer started selling from someone who make them at home. It's actually a little fan with supermagnets glued to the blades 180 degrees from one another. It's cheap but it works! Not a bad deal <$60 and if you're into brewing all the better. 

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2012, 09:33:50 PM »
Thanks Dan,

I'm a bit of a diy guy and he came up with a really nice lil unit.
Please keep after the smell my friend, if anyone can crack this nut I believe it will be you !

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #128 on: May 14, 2012, 10:50:42 PM »
I thought this little tidbit was an interesting find...

http://www.facebook.com/events/103400686383906/

Lager yeast is a little lazy to grow. The Bohemian pastorianus strain doesn't really settle out of solution like the previous lager one I tried. It's been going for 3 days now and although the solution is cloudy, the cells are not clumpy. It smells great. Similar to the other lager strains I have tried. So I don't think it's anything too special. I was thinking the other day what if the smell is a combination of things? Perhaps the fresh yeast, burning cheese in the oven, multiple cheeses as others have suggested, cheese powder in the dough... It could really be a combination of things. As for the taste in the crust directly, that's something more approachable because you're tasting the flavor directly IN the crust. Not just some flavor that hits you when you walk in the restaurant. I have the Vermont cheese powder and sourdough flavoring on the way from KA. If I get enough cells from the yeast, I'll use it. If not I am content using the dry lager yeast spiked with some ADY for volume. It's a lot easier working with the dry yeast.

Offline lightmeter

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #129 on: May 16, 2012, 11:05:49 PM »
I spoke to a VP, Sales at Lallemand/American Yeast this week. He stated that Lallemand Eagle yeast is indeed the decendant of Budweiser yeast and is regularly either the #1 or #2 selling commercial bakers yeast. Dawn Foods is a major distributor and he recommended contacting them directly to see if they'll sell to the public in small batches or identify some local bakers willing to resell. My next task is to hunt down a brick or two. Let me know if anyone has a local source in the Kansas City area, or by internet seller. Thanks.


Offline lightmeter

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #130 on: May 16, 2012, 11:16:39 PM »
Don't know "how" relevant it is, but my earliest ad for Shakey's, Sacramento mentions only one beer and its Black Bavarian beer.

Our menu also claimed Black Bavarian Beer at the Rockville Shakey's in the 70's. It was actually Michelob Dark in a keg. Other than that I think we served regular Michelob on tap and had a couple import bottle brands.

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #131 on: May 17, 2012, 12:01:56 AM »
Tonight I finally had a chance to bake two pies using the cheese powder from the Kraft macaroni and cheese dinner package I wrote about on March 26th. I put in about 5 teaspoons to a pound of flour. While this powder did add flavor to the crust, it also acted as a dough conditioner. The dough was quite slack after fermenting. Unfortunately, it did not yield THAT SMELL*.

For reasons I will explain later, I sprinkled some cinnamon onto the second skin. As expected, one could smell cinnamon in the kitchen after about 7 minutes. But, the crust had hints of cinnamon, not THAT SMELL*.

I note that King Arthur also sells Pizza Dough Flavor (item 1043). You can read the ingredients statement on their website. It contains cheddar cheese powder plus quite a few other ingredients, including the infamous "natural flavor". I looked at this product a long time ago, but decided against buying it because it contained flavors I knew were not in Shakey's crust. But the 132 reviews for this product form a springboard for discussion for what gives Shakey's crust its unique smell and taste. One recent reviewer wrote, "I noticed a difference by using this product. The aroma in my kitchen is to die for...just like a real pizzeria. I got a more noticeable flavour when making foccacia with no sauce than your typical all dressed type of pizzas, which is the main reason that I purchased this product."

I bring this up because a few days ago I took 1/3 of one the Shakey's pepperoni pies pictured here out of the freezer:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,518.msg173916.html#msg173916
These were wrapped in Heavy Duty aluminum foil, then overwrapped with plastic wrap. I was amazed that after all this time it still had THAT SMELL*. It had notes of wine, plus other smells I just could not place. I learned one valuable lesson from this: stick with plain cheese pies when procuring samples.

After reheating them (I reheat from the frozen state at 400 degrees for 10 minutes) I obtained THAT SMELL*. I noted a hint of cinnamon. But, others had used cinnamon in the kitchen recently. That is the reason for sprinkling cinnamon on one of the skins today. But cinnamon does not seem to be a component of THAT SMELL*.

I was very disappointed with myself that, here, I had samples (from a corporate Shakey's restaurant) in my hand but could not place the source of the aroma and taste. I now believe that if all the people who work on this project get together in one place with samples of the current version of the Shakey's pizza they are attempting to clone, this mystery will be solved.

Another problem is that I have not been able to procure a mozzarella like used on current corporate Shakey's pies. The cheese is obviously a blend that includes stinky cheeses. But this cheese, when reheated, remains very soft and pliable. I think it may have to do with the fact that these pizzas are formulated for the lunch buffet. This cheese has a much longer holding time than even Grande whole milk mozzarella, the best cheese we used so far. The only thing we found close to Shakey's cheese was the pizza cheese used by the Golden Corral buffet restaurant chain. Raw cheese samples were obtained by taking a baked potato to the pizza maker and requesting some cheese for the potato. The cheese readily melted, but was very wet.

One question repeatedly asked by Lightmeter is "What would Shakey have done?". Unfortunately, I draw a blank. No one so far has assured us that the pizza made by Shakey in 1954 was the same as that made in the 70's by franchisees nationwide. We don't know if and when any food scientists got involved.

EDITED to correct reheating oven temperature.

* THAT SMELL is a trademark of DNA Dan for a smell that is real but its source is unknown.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 08:03:53 AM by Zing »

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #132 on: May 17, 2012, 08:11:41 AM »
I saw a Dawn Foods 18-wheeler shortly after taking this picture the other day of the site of the old Shakey's Rockville. The general contractor is Florida based. The workers were from a concrete contractor. I guess the Dawn Foods truck was not delivering anything to the job site.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #133 on: May 17, 2012, 01:13:29 PM »
It's glad to know I'm not crazy. *THATSMELL is real and does exist, it's just an unknown source. This sort of feels like an episode of LOST the TV show.

A couple of updates: The pastorianus strain grows very lazy. I could tell fermentation was occuring because of the smell and bubble being produced, but the strain took 3 days to saturate a 1L flask. Also the cells do not clump at all. The mixture was turbid, so I let it settle overnight, decanted most of the liquid then poured out the cells with the last bit of liquid. It smells like a really good lager. I will make some dough tonight with some ADY as a spike in for volume.

I have some Vermont cheese powder on the way to try that next. Was hoping to run the comparison side by side with the yeast experiment.

In a third approach, I am trying to take a more simple tact. First off, would the recipe be some exotic crazy thing that Sherwood had purchased? Would he have teams of food scientists to develop a flavor profile? In both cases I think not. So reading the obituary here: http://groups.google.com/group/ba.food/msg/a27c389a592c9096

I closed in on the comments "They later added pizza, using a recipe Mr. Johnson knew from his
childhood, some of which he spent serving as a recipe interpreter
between Italian housewives and his mother, who was Swedish." And began searching for "swedish pizza recipes". That led me to this: http://www.food.com/recipe/Swedish-Pizza-137196 which has some very interesting "stinky" cheeses. Also notice the correlation that the crust is a "puff pastry" dough. Perhaps some "traditional" pizza in sweden served as the influence for Shakey's. It's a stretch, but the secret may lie in the influences? My father (who grew up in a strict italian house) told me stories about some businesses in the family that would purposely burn romano, or parm cheeses by throwing a dash into an oven to bring people in off the streets. Another good one is to cook some butter and garlic. Just some thoughts....
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 01:15:45 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2012, 10:17:26 AM »
Pizza in Sweden was not big until the guest workers created a demand for it in the 70's:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza#In_Sweden

The little gray cells were working overnight and brought back memories of articles of 10-15 years ago about forms of non-leavening yeast being added as a flavoring agent to all kinds of foods including pet foods. I have still have to research this site to see what has been written on this subject and I may wind up striking over this paragraph as a dead end. But autolyzed yeast and other kinds of yeast for flavoring may tie in with Dan's initial post in the malty laminated beer crust thread:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13389.msg132548.html#msg132548
Much of this stuff can't be found in the grocery store. I remember back in the 60's or 70's Squibb made brewers yeast tablets for use as a vitamin supplement. The yeast was debittered and otherwise processed to make it taste like candy. While my old school doctor prescribed it as a vitamin, I overdosed because it tasted so good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeast_extract
http://yeastextract.info/yeast-extract
http://yeastextract.info/yeast-products/product-information

Again, these products are mostly sold in the industrial food ingredients market.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 10:35:56 AM by Zing »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #135 on: May 18, 2012, 12:08:38 PM »
To bring this full circle, check out this patent issued to AB for cheese flavoring baked goods using digested yeast extracts.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2920965.html

I didn't even know this was possible. I wonder how "cheesy" it tastes. At any rate, all these yeast extract products going into breads is simply glutathione and glutamate derivatives. A more popular commercial one is MSG. They are trying to enhance flavors this way.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 08:35:29 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #136 on: May 18, 2012, 08:17:01 PM »
I bought some Marmite yeast extract in the supermarket, imported from the UK. I mixed some in with some dough in the fridge and baked it. While it is way off from Shakey's, it does stink up the kitchen. The problem is that besides yeast extract, this product contains vegetable and spice extracts. Ok well, onto the Marmite website for recipes to use the rest of it up ith. But it taught me a valuable lesson: Whatever I am smelling in Shakey's I have not worked with before. Otherwise, I would recognize the smell.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #137 on: May 18, 2012, 08:32:29 PM »
Did you get a lot of salt taste from the marmite?

I tried the scandinavian version which goes by the name Cenovis. Similar results as you.

I just ate the S. Pastorianus pie compared to a pie made with a Canadian lager. Although they tasted slightly different, the taste was not "super WOW" crazy different. All the lagers seem to taste pretty similar. I must say however I do prefer the lagers over the ale yeasts. This must be why I am drawn to the malt liquor.  ::)

Still on the hunt. My damn cheese powder won't be here until next week.  :-\

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #138 on: May 19, 2012, 01:08:02 AM »
Yes, the Marmite is loaded with salt. Even hours after baking the piece of pizza dough still has that unique flavor you get when you sniff the jar of Marmite.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three
« Reply #139 on: May 22, 2012, 10:27:29 PM »
Vermont Cheese Powder Results: Look somewhere else. Not the magic ingredient. The pizza tasted worse than my typical pies made with malt liquor. Not much "stinky cheese" smell coming out of the conveyor. The crust tasted a little bland actually. I could taste the toppings and pizza cheese more because the crust tasted almost "absent". Structure was really good, lots of puff in the crust. I brought the sheeter up a bit in thickness, which I think I like better. Probably hit this one with too much top heat, but still working out the nuiances of the conveyor.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 10:29:20 PM by DNA Dan »