Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three

[elsegundo]

As promised here is the final portion to the process.

Part one: ingredients of premix flour, shortening, sugar, salt, yeast
Part two: mix 25 pounds of premix with 9 pounds water at 95 degrees for 7 minutes

Finally,

Secret part. Shakey's uses a die cut method which means they take a prepared dough sheet and cuts out circles. What they do with the scraps is important.  They save them for the next day.

Here we go

Take the fresh refrigerated dough from part one and two and leave out for two hours.
Run the fresh dough through a sheeter.  Divide in half. Take the scraps from yesterday and make a sandwich with the scraps in the middle. Roll sandwich dough through the sheeter. You have three layers. New scrap new.

Fold into thirds. Now you have nine layers. Roll though sheeter until you have the desired thickness. Die cut the dough. Save the scraps. Add sauce and toppings.
Bake at about 500 degrees and claim you are the greatest pizza in the world- which you are. You are SHAKEY'S! Amen.

[DNA Dan]

elsegundo, job well done. This sounds awfully like the Round Table method, although I don't think it's confirmed that they use scraps at RT as a method per se. The inconsistency in this style certainly suggests this is actually a way of doing it, not just a way to use leftover scraps.

In regard to the lamination, do you have any indication on what sorts of thicknesses we're talking about here? In my experience, the greater the discrepancy in TF while sheeting, the more it tends to work the dough. For instance how thick would you say the final 9 layer sandwich is? Vs. how much further down is it taken for the final die cut. The more you pass it the more it seems to get developed.

[Mad_Ernie]

I agree with DNA Dan that this is a job well done  , and using scraps sounds very reminiscent of Round Table Pizza's method.

Elsegundo, based on the recipe and method you provided, it looks like although they use ADY, they do not proof the yeast separately prior to incorporating it into the dough, i.e., it is added along with the other dry ingredients and the shortening and mixed in with the water over the 7 minutes.  Correct?

-ME

[elsegundo]

DNA Dan     thin crust dough is rolled to 1/8 inch thickness. They appear to business letter fold the dough only once. They then roll until the desired thickness of 1/8 inch. This is a little different from Round Table. Yes overhanding produces tough dough.
Round Table will use up to 50% old dough in thin crust. Nothing in the thick style.
I don't know how they incorporate the old dough. Sorry. I wish I had actually worked at one of theses places.

Mad Ernie   everything is included in premix bag except 90 degree water. No proofing. Mix on speed #1 for 7 minutes. Other pizza chains used to include a 4 ounce yeast package. Neither Shakey's or RT does this.
At least not now. The fact that 90 degree water is used suggests they are using ADY. I can't be positive. I am positive the ingredients are flour, partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil, sugar, salt, yeast as stated in part one.

My writing style is not the best, so if anything is not clear, ask away.

[Pete-zza]

The fact that 90 degree water is used suggests they are using ADY. I can't be positive.

Bill,

It's possible that the 90 degree water is used to achieve a desired finished dough temperature. The results may vary from location to location due to ambient temperature variations but specifying 90 degree water may be close enough and avoids having to train workers to adjust water temperature to achieve the desired finished dough temperatures.

Peter

[DNA Dan]

The final dough temperature is one of the finer points that I don't think many consider when trying to recreate some of these recipies at home. The action and mass effect of a huge dough mass in a commercial mixer is quite different than a typical home food processor or counter top mixer.

The fact that many chains have premixed bags that just need water added seems to point towards ADY exclusively. Anyone ever seen a premix that was "just add water" and was IDY?

[Pete-zza]

The fact that many chains have premixed bags that just need water added seems to point towards ADY exclusively. Anyone ever seen a premix that was "just add water" and was IDY?

Dan,

Logically, I would think that IDY would be used in a premix because it is intended to be used dry and it can tolerate a fairly wide range of water temperatures. By contrast, when ADY is used dry, that is, without rehydrating it first in water, the recommended water temperature is 120-130 degrees F (see, for example, http://redstaryeast.com/lessons/yeast_types__usage/active_dry_yeast.php). Using ADY dry with water at 90 degrees F might be a way of slowing down the fermentation process. I don't know if that is an objective with the Shakey's dough. Maybe there are other considerations when creating premixes for commercial applications involving multiple stores, storage, transit issues, etc.

Peter

[fazzari]

Just a few passing thoughts:

As for the use of dough scraps, most of us simply take the scraps from roll 1 and incorporate them into roll 2.  The scraps from roll 2 are then rolled into roll 3 etc.  I can't speak for the Shakey's method except it seems cumbersome in that if one rolled 8 batches of dough in one day, he would have one hell of alot of scraps in his cooler...but if that is what they do, so be it.

As for water temperature....the friction factor is very small in a low hydration dough which only mixes 7 minutes....it becomes much more a factor if one mixes it over 10 minutes.  So, I agree with Peter, that the 90 degree water simply gets the dough to a desired temperature after mixing.  I also agree with Peter that the yeast is probably IDY, although in and of itself, as long as you follow correct procedures you could use any yeast to make the product.

For the past 2 weeks I have been experimenting with the method of laminating after refrigeration.  What I have found is that even though a skin is very eatable right after lamination, time improves the product tremendously.  Even 7 or 8 hours makes a huge difference, and if you wait another 24 hours, its even better.  If I knew I were going to make a pizza right after dough processing, I would purposely roll the skin a bit thinner....the "normal" thickness is just a hair dry...but this goes away with time.  The crust is very crispy, and even though it remains crispy with time, it gets a bit more tender.  I think this is very important to the home pizza guy becuase you can leave out the addition of scraps which I'm sure is used for additional flavor.

As luck would have it, I'm going to Spokane tomorrow where a new Shakey's opened last year.  It's been 40 years since I've tasted one, so hopefully I can convince my wife to have lunch there...

John

[Pete-zza]

For the past 2 weeks I have been experimenting with the method of laminating after refrigeration.  What I have found is that even though a skin is very eatable right after lamination, time improves the product tremendously.  Even 7 or 8 hours makes a huge difference, and if you wait another 24 hours, its even better.  If I knew I were going to make a pizza right after dough processing, I would purposely roll the skin a bit thinner....the "normal" thickness is just a hair dry...but this goes away with time.  The crust is very crispy, and even though it remains crispy with time, it gets a bit more tender.  I think this is very important to the home pizza guy because you can leave out the addition of scraps which I'm sure is used for additional flavor.

John,

To be sure I understand the above quoted text, are you saying that there are two preferred ways to prepare the laminated skins:

1. Right after making the dough, and then cold fermenting the skins for up to a day. In this case, the skins would be rolled a bit thinner than usual.

2. After letting the bulk dough cold ferment for up to a day?

If I got it right, is ond method preferred over the other?

Peter

[elsegundo]

Odds and ends -mostly scrap dough

I believe the use of scrap dough as a filling between two layers of fresh dough is to keep the layers separated just a little.
Can't prove it. It also uses up old dough and adds flavor, while taming the yeast a little.
 
ADY versus IDY .
My experience and reading  suggest IDY is usually used at room temperature. ADY is around 105-115. Some go higher.

Round Table directs 80-85 degrees. probably IDY
Straw Hat at one location used 105, probably ADY.
Shakeys's directs 95. Kind of warm for IDY. Who knows. All I can prove is it's yeast.
They all use a premix as does Mountain Mikes. Yes they all just add water to the premix from the bag.

Sorry these are West Coast pizza chains. Blames Shakey Johnson for it all. Abby in Oregon is a near clone and a chain.

Thanks for your comments.

[fazzari]

Peter
I was taught to laminate the dough right after it had doubled.  It is very easy on your sheeter, and that is why I have always subscribed to the notion that if the home pizza baker wants to use a rolling pin, the time to do it is when the dough has doubled and is still warm.  The skins are fabulous.

It wasn't until I read the info from Elsegundo, that I understood the process Shakey's used.  They let the dough double, punch down and refrigerate overnight.  They then take the dough out a couple hours to warm and laminate.  So, I've been experimenting with the method and I find it to be very taxing on my sheeter....but the skins are just as good as the skins I make with my method.  Having said that, there is a difference in texture developed using the two styles.  If I was forced to choose which skin was better, I would have to say it would depend on how long the skins aged.  The "same day" skin as per Elsegundo's info baked by the Shakey's method is inferior to mine or to the Shakey's skin which ages at least a day.  And my best guess is that if I sheeted the "same day" Shakey's skin a little thinner, it would be just as good as mine or the aged Shakey's skin.
John

[DNA Dan]

I think I have my IDY and ADY backwards.  If some of these mixes are using IDY, why does the red star website Peter posted suggest IDY is not meant for refrigerated or frozen dough methods.  Clearly in practice the refrigerated ferment seems to improve the dough. I can see why IDY is suggested from a commercial process perspective, but it's odd the website discourages it's use in refrigerated dough. Any thoughts on this?

[Pete-zza]

My experience and reading  suggest IDY is usually used at room temperature. ADY is around 105-115. Some go higher.

Bill,

I think we have to draw a distinction between the two forms of dry yeast used as part of a premix and outside of a premix. For example, IDY can be added directly to a premix. Once in the premix, the water temperature can vary over a wide range. For example, I have used water temperatures from around 40 degrees F to about 130 degrees F. ADY can also be added (dry) to a premix but the usual recommendation is to use water at a temperature of about 120-130 degrees F. That temperature won't harm the ADY because the ADY is buffered by the other dry ingredients in the premix. The higher water temperature may be necessary because ADY contains considerably more dead cells than IDY and ADY also has a different physical geometry than IDY.

Outside of a premix, there is no need to rehydrate IDY but it is sometimes done, either out of habit (this is common when bakers switch from ADY to IDY and don't want to change their procedures), or if the knead time is to be quite short, usually under about four minutes. An example of the latter is the use of IDY in a vertical cutter mixer (VCM) where knead times are a fraction of what other mixers require.  According to Tom Lehmann, when IDY is to be rehydrated, the temperature of water used to rehydrate IDY is critical. It should be around 95 degrees F. See, for example, Tom's PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7527&p=51038&hilit=#p51038.

Outside of a premix, the usual recommendation for ADY is to rehydrate it. Again, the temperature is critical. It should be around 105 degrees F, and the rehydration time is around 10 minutes.

As noted previously, I believe the 90 degrees F water is to achieve a particular finished dough temperature. It is perhaps a safe number to put on the instruction sheet or on the bags of premixes to be used yearround by the people who make the dough. Otherwise, to be more accurate, the workers would either have to learn how to adjust water temperatures over the course of a year or use charts that tell them what water temperatures to use based on the particular mixers used. Obviously, it is preferable to avoid such measures wherever possible, especially in an environment where workers come and go with great regularity.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I think I have my IDY and ADY backwards.  If some of these mixes are using IDY, why does the red star website Peter posted suggest IDY is not meant for refrigerated or frozen dough methods.  Clearly in practice the refrigerated ferment seems to improve the dough. I can see why IDY is suggested from a commercial process perspective, but it's odd the website discourages it's use in refrigerated dough. Any thoughts on this?

Dan,

I was puzzled by the statement you mentioned (reproduced below) so I used the contact form at the Red Star to ask for clarification. This led to a series of exchanges with "Carol", at Red Star. They are as follows:

Me: At your website, I read the following:

"Instant Yeast is not recommended for use in refrigerated or frozen dough baking methods."

Does that mean that I shouldn't use instant dry yeast to make dough that is to be refrigerated before using, such as a cold fermented pizza dough?

Carol: If the dough will be refrigerated more than 12 hours, regular active dry yeast would be better choice.  Instant yeast is a 'fast acting' yeast and may begin to diminish in leavening power if the dough is refrigerated for extended periods.

I hope you will find this information helpful.

Me: Thank you for your reply. However, I have been using some of the Red Star IDY products, notably the Gourmet Perfect Rise yeast, and also the SAF Red IDY, for several years to make pizza dough in a home setting without a problem. I have used as little as 0.17% IDY for doughs that were cold fermented for more than three days, without a problem with leavening power. Is it possible that the IDYs at Red Star sold to home bakers are not the same as the Red Star IDYs sold to and used by professionals? Tom Lehmann of the American Institute of Baking has been recommending IDY to professionals for several years for cold fermented doughs, and even for frozen doughs. He even tends to steer professionals away from ADY.

Carol: I appreciate your comments and am glad that you have had success using the IDY in your refrigerated pizza dough.  Your success is due to the very low yeast amount that in itself ‘controls’ the rate of yeast activity.  ADY would work just as well at these low levels given the long fermentation time.  I worked several years on the industrial side of our business and had much involvement with the folks at the American Institute of Baking, including Tom Lehmann.  He is certainly respected as an expert on the industrial side of pizza manufacturing.  Honestly, cold fermented pizza doughs and frozen pizza doughs are more tolerant to the action of IDY than the raised products such as cold fermented or frozen pan breads or rolls.
 
In any case, ‘don’t fix what isn’t broken’!

Peter

[DNA Dan]

Thanks Peter. So it's basically a blanket statement that mostly applies to bread products with a lot of rise. Does this infer that allowing your dough to rise prior to refrigeration is not a good thing for IDY? From Carol's statement it sounds like once you have ideal temperatures for the growth rate to completely take off, it fully exhausts itself and there's no turning back.

By using such a little amount the food source for the yeast is in such excess that they can tolerate the 3 day ferment and keep on growing. This makes sense. I suppose on breads with a lot of rise the yeast amounts are higher and you deplete the food source sooner.

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

It's important to keep in mind that at the consumer website of Red Star, and at the Fleischmann's consumer website as well, all of the recipes for pizza dough call for a lot of yeast (in some cases up to two packets) and room temperature fermentation only. I don't ever recall seeing a pizza dough recipe at either website that calls for cold fermentation of the dough. So, in that context, using ADY instead of IDY would seem to be a logical choice, for the reason Carol mentioned. The second thing to keep in mind is that yeast producers dispense different advice to consumers than to professionals. Consumers are far more likely to make errors and experiece failure when making yeasted products than professionals. So, the yeast producers advise using lots of yeast and warm water temperatures so that the likelihood of success goes up quite dramatically. Professionals know how to use much smaller amounts of yeast and cooler water temperatures along with cold fermentation. Since I didn't tell Carol whether I was a home baker or a professional, she gave me the advice for the home baker. That makes sense since I sent her the emails from their consumer website.

Peter

[fazzari]

Regarding instant yeast:  the following is taken from "Artisan Breads Every Day" by Peter Reinhart

A New Way to Work with Yeast
Another breakthrough method in this book is that of hydrating instant yeast, often using lukewarm water.  Hydrating instant yeast in warm water is something I wouldn't have embraced previously, but I've discovered that waking up the yeast in lukewarm water allows it to ferment more effectively during the cooldown phase in the refrigerator.  It also makes it possible to put the dough in the refrigerator as soon as it's mixed rather than having to wait for it to rise.  The warmer dough and activated yeast have plenty of time to rise as the dough cools, so the dough is ready to use right from the refrigerator, without the wake up time required in many of the other bread recipes I've developed............Another benefit of this method is that it's the same whether you use instant or active dry yeast, though it's best to increase the amount by 25 percent if you use active dry yeast.  (This is because 25 percent of the yeast cells are killed during the processing of active dry yeast.)

Knowledge, there is more everyday isn't there?
John

[Pete-zza]

John,

Evelyne Slomon also recommends rehydrating IDY for home pizza dough making, as discussed at Reply 455 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28773/topicseen.html#msg28773. Also, member November, who only uses ADY, says that if he used IDY he would rehydrate it as well, as he pointed out at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg34030/topicseen.html#msg34030.

All of this makes it easy for us to say what kind of yeast is used in the Shakey's premix, right? 

Peter

[DNA Dan]

I just pulled the trigger on a dough sheeter! Finally broke down and decided it was the missing piece to the ultimate crust I am after. (Not to mention it's use in making ravioli much easier!) I got a Somerset CDR-500 off ebay for $850 plus shipping. I have looked at these for quite some time and I think that is a good deal. I can't wait to try the RT clone and Shakey's recipes on this baby.

This obsession is starting to get a little bigger...

[Mad_Ernie]

Way to go, Dan!   

I was trolling through ebay yesterday for the same exact thing.  We must be afflicted with the same obsessive addiction.