Author Topic: Crust a Little dry  (Read 3382 times)

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Offline Marco Polo

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Crust a Little dry
« on: May 04, 2010, 03:50:15 PM »
I make my pizzas the traditional way, Italian 00 flour, water, salt and yeast but I donít use the traditional hand stretching techniques when making my pizza.  May the pizza gods forgive me but I do use a rolling pin.  Now, donít get me wrong, my pizzas are extremely tasty but the crust is a little crispy and dry.  Could this be the result of using the rolling pin?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 03:52:30 PM by Marco Polo »


Offline andreguidon

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 04:47:38 PM »
no, this is because of the oven... low heat... you need to go over 400C to get a nice soft crust... and hydration above 58%...
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 05:20:09 PM »
I make my pizzas the traditional way, Italian 00 flour, water, salt and yeast but I donít use the traditional hand stretching techniques when making my pizza.  May the pizza gods forgive me but I do use a rolling pin.  Now, donít get me wrong, my pizzas are extremely tasty but the crust is a little crispy and dry.  Could this be the result of using the rolling pin?

And the pizza gods will be angry about the rolling pin, too. 

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 05:57:44 PM »
And the pizza gods will be angry about the rolling pin, too. 


thats true bill !!
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline RoadPizza

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 06:23:23 PM »
And the pizza gods will be angry about the rolling pin, too. 
I'm not sure about that.  As much as I discourage the use of a rolling pin in NY style pizzas, I've seen videos of rolling pins being used in traditional Neapolitan pizzas.

Offline Marco Polo

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 07:20:14 PM »
no, this is because of the oven... low heat... you need to go over 400C to get a nice soft crust... and hydration above 58%...


It cannot have anything to do with the temperature of my oven.  I cooked my pizza in a modified Roller Grill PZ330 Electric Pizza oven at 450c for about 2ish minutes.

Maybe it's the hydration of the dough?

Here is another pizza I Cooked in my oven.

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2010, 09:36:42 PM »
can you tell us about your dough method ?
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Offline Marco Polo

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 01:06:32 AM »
Yeast: Fresh Bakers Yeast

Flour: Molino Spadoni PZ2 00



Ok, firstly I make a starter with 300g flour and 1.2g yeast. I let that develop at room temperature for 12hrs. 

I then mix in the starter with 700g flour, salt and 3g yeast on food mixer with dough hook for about 4mins medium setting then another 4mins on high or until the dough develops a creamy appearance.

I let that dough rest for 3hrs at room temp.  By that time it should have doubled in size.

I pat it back down and let it rise again for 2hrs

After this period I ball the dough up at 250g.

Leave to prove again for one hour then make my pizza.

I apologise as I have not recorded measurements for water or salt. 

But maybe you could do the maths for the water as the total dough weight after proving was roughly 1600g


Below is a picture of the moment after I separated the dough balls.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 01:16:48 AM by Marco Polo »

Offline s00da

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2010, 03:26:07 AM »
Hi Marco, when baking Neapolitan pizza in low temps, you need to add oil to your dough. Maybe a 1% would help and sometimes you might need to drop the hydration to compensate for the added moisture provided by the oil.

Good luck

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2010, 06:15:38 AM »
Sooda, Marco says he's baking at 450c which would be around 842f?  Marco have you tried increasing your hydration ratio a bit?  You may want to consider measuring your water for a more consistent result. As it is, it could be too low but how could you tell?  Are you going by feel?


Offline Marco Polo

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2010, 09:56:20 AM »
Yes, I am going by feel, and my dough balls are very soft and pliable. 

Can flour become stale over time. 

I have had my flour going on two years, so it is possible that it might be slightly out of date. 

Would this cause the slightly dry crust?

Offline s00da

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2010, 11:49:35 AM »
Sorry I missed the temperature part. I thought it was F.

Reading your posts again, this reminds me of my own experience on this post http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78872.html#msg78872

I think the caputo dough needs really high temp of no less than 900 F so you can get those sudden blisters and amber color quickly while preserving the tenderness of the crumb. I tried both temperatures of 700 F and 830 F and the result was a more evenly browned crust with slowly appearing blisters. As you can see, my pizza was also crisp and too chewy for something I'd like in a Neapolitan pizza.

Saad

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2010, 03:17:20 PM »
I'm not sure about that.  As much as I discourage the use of a rolling pin in NY style pizzas, I've seen videos of rolling pins being used in traditional Neapolitan pizzas.

Well, then they are not traditional Neapolitan pizzas ;-P
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2010, 03:28:44 PM »
Well, then they are not traditional Neapolitan pizzas ;-P

ITS TRUE !!
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Offline Marco Polo

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2010, 12:39:12 PM »
I hope some of us can refrain from nitpicking at responses from other contributors.  Itís both boring and childish and in the end serves no real purpose.  If you have nothing really constructive to add to a discussion, thenÖdonít add anything.

To get back to my dry pie crust problem.

I made this pie with the same dough from the other pies above but the only difference is that the dough for the pie below has been sitting in the refrigerator for two days.

There is a definite difference in texture and flavour.  Much softer crust and a really lovely bread-like flavour, which wasnít too yeasty.  Lovely charring on the bottom.  Itís one of the best pies I have made in along time.  A little too much olive oil maybe, but the flavour was out of this world.  Truly delicious.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2010, 12:42:58 PM »
MP, that pie does look tasty.  I'm not sure you are cooking at the temps you say you are though.  At those temps you should have more charring on the top crust.  You may be cooking at high temps on the bottom but I suspect your upper temps are in 600's by the look of your crust.  You may be losing heat somewhere? Sorry if I'm way off here or mistaken, but something doesn't seem right. 

If heat is not the issue then it's definitely your hydration ratio.  You should measure it out next time and then increase it by 5% to see if it makes a difference.  Good luck and keep posting those pics. 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 01:14:43 PM by Tranman »

Offline Marco Polo

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2010, 01:16:16 PM »
Yes, you are right, the above temp is a problem, but I am taking measures to address that.  It might not look right, but looks as we all know aren't everything.  I am sure there are pies on this forum that look aesthetically right but tastes dreadful

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2010, 01:44:08 PM »
Yes, you are right, the above temp is a problem, but I am taking measures to address that.  It might not look right, but looks as we all know aren't everything.  I am sure there are pies on this forum that look aesthetically right but tastes dreadful

Yes, looks and taste are 2 different things.  I can post a nice looking pie but taste is just ok.  I'm glad you like the taste of your pizza.  Was this one still a bit dry?  Do you use about the same amout of water in each batch or does it constantly change?  So it sounds like you are making your dough mostly by feel?

Any ideas how many pizzas you've made.  I believe you can get a consistent product by feel but takes a lot of practice.  Until then measuring is the way to go.  And try to open the dough by hand.  The rolling pin may give you a denser crust leading to the perception of it being a bit more dry.  Just a few thoughts.  Good luck.

Offline Marco Polo

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2010, 01:55:12 PM »
Check my earlier photo of dough balls.  I manged to get 6x 250g dough balls out of 1kg of flour and roughly 5g of fresh yeast.  I have used 5 dough balls and have one left sitting in the fridge.  I do mostly make my dough by feel but I will endeavour to measure everything in the future.  And yes, after that two day cold ferment, it has certainly made the dough a lot softer around the edges.  I have tried to stretch the dough by hand but find it really difficult.  I know it's all about practice.  What I do is start the dough with the rolling pin, then finish it off by hand.

Offline Bobino414

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Re: Crust a Little dry
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2010, 10:34:02 PM »

Marco Polo

Re:  Rolling pin-I have seen many pizzaiolos in Italy use a rolling pin, so go for it !!

Re: Two year old flour.  This is a problem.  Depending how you store your flour, plan on losing hydration.  According to Conagra the loss is about 1% per month.  Conagra was kind enough to test some older flour for me.  The hydration loss was about 1% per 4 months of storage(I keep my flour well sealed).  So on the surface it would seem that all you have to do is replace with additional water, but it doesn't work that way. The two year old flour would require a 28 minute machine knead to restore to a proper hydration level.  Unfortunately this amount of kneading would destroy the gluten structure.  So you end up with a "dead dough."  Time to throw out the old flour.  I hope this helps.



 

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