Author Topic: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00  (Read 13934 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« on: May 19, 2010, 01:12:16 AM »
Got my hands on some caputo and it's been kicking my @ss for a couple of weeks.  Been doing experiment after experiment and have had zero luck with it, until tonight.

Made a couple of nice looking and tasty pies.  Hope to keep it going.

These were emergency dough formulations, 6 hours to be exact.  I even got some of the elusive leoparding on the 2nd pie. :-D


Offline scott123

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2010, 01:20:48 AM »
I'm not much for NYpolitan, but I'd eat that- which, for me, is high praise.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2010, 01:39:20 AM »
I'm not much for NYpolitan, but I'd eat that- which, for me, is high praise.

 :-D Thanks Scott.  I'm not either actually BUT, I bought 15 lbs of caputo and have to use it up somehow.  :-D  As crazy as it sounds, my preferred pie is a NY pie cooked not at ultrahigh temps but around 650-700F for around 5-6mins. ;)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 01:47:53 AM by Tranman »

Offline scott123

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2010, 07:08:08 PM »
As crazy as it sounds, my preferred pie is a NY pie cooked not at ultrahigh temps but around 650-700F for around 5-6mins. ;)

Well then, I guess our tastes are not that far apart. My preference is 500F for 4.5 minutes, but that's with soapstone.  I would say that soapstone at 500F is the equivalent of your average pizza stone at 700.

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2010, 07:24:49 PM »
Very nice Tran!
So now that you have pulled off some beauties what do think of the Caputo pie?  Texture, chew, details please!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2010, 09:35:33 PM »
Thx Hog.  I'll try to be as detailed as I can without being too wordy as I have a tendency to go on.   First off, my opinions are based on my personal preferences & experiments, relatively little pizza making experience, a lack of a WFO or fancy smancy mixer.

These were made using 8 slice's formulation found here on reply #789....http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4753.780.html.  THANK YOU 8 SLICE!!  Instead of pastry flour, I used caputo 00 pizzeria flour.   So 80/20 (caputo/BF), 67% hydration, 1st pie ADY, 2nd Starter, salt, and water.   Note that the starter pie developed leoparding vs the ADY pie which had next to none.  Mixed in the food processor, and finished with hand kneading.    I upped the ADY and starter a bit and warm proofed to hurry things along.  Bulk rise covered outside in sunlight for 1.5H, reballed then under kitchen lights for 4.5H (average temp 80F?).  Dough rise was around 75%?.

Bake on firebricks (first time) at 700 and 750 in gas oven with broiler running. Rimmed to brown and with broiler off allowed bottom to bake another min or so.  Total bake time was under 4min.  Firebrick doesn't conduct heat nearly as well as my glazed primo pizza stone thus requiring a bit more of a bake time than I'm use to at the same temps using my glazed stone. 

Texture is as would be expected of caputo.  Less chew than using all BF or HG flour.  Bottom and crust is softer than compared to BF and gives way to the teeth and chews easier.   This would equate to being more digestable?  Again note, I didn't bake these at 850F for under 2 mins like a true neopolitan would require. 
So I can't say the crust wouldn't taste different if I had bake it at a higher temp.

Despite the deep brown color of the crust, it was not crunchy which I do like.  I haven't had a true neopolitan baked in WFO, but imagine it to have no crunch what's so ever.  Even on re-toasting the next day, the crust is soft and has little chew or crunch to it.

Tastewise, it taste like pizza crust.  Definitely not "special" in any different way than my other crust taste as I use the same amount of salt per pie as I normally do.  It tastes good but not insanely good or different by a wide margin.  If you are expecting that, then you may be dissappointed.  With more practice I may get better results and change my mind but I'm doubtful. 

The texture was quite good BUT i believe it had more to do with a new method of kneading I tried than the caputo flour itself.  Again remember 8 slice makes his out of pastry flour and his pies look stinkin' awesome.  So with the proper technique, I believe you can very closely replicate a true neopolitan pie without the use of caputo.  Maybe someone with a WFO and some real experience can describe the difference between making NP pies with pastry, AP, or caputo flour. 

I hope to try this experiment myself pitting pie against pie (pastry vs AP vs caputo).
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 07:50:45 AM by Tranman »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2010, 09:50:47 PM »
Well then, I guess our tastes are not that far apart. My preference is 500F for 4.5 minutes, but that's with soapstone.  I would say that soapstone at 500F is the equivalent of your average pizza stone at 700.


Scott my best and favorite pie I have made, I described here.  Look at the thick crust skin around the big airbubble.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10826.0.html.  It was baked on my glazed stone with an oven temp of 500, and likely a stone temp of 600+.  I don't really know the true temp as this was when I hadn't bought a thermogun yet.  But it was baked for around 6mins?  The lightly browned crust was from the oven and not me rimming the pie as I do now under the broiler. 

The outer crust has a definite crunch to it much like french bread while the inside is soft and moist.  The bottom crust is thin and has a crunch to it as well.  It was not droopy like a classic NY'er.   The bottom crust is thin and it is slightly crunchy but it IS NOT like a cracker crust.  A cracker crust is dry on the inside whereas mine is slightly moist.    This pizza is different from the "elite" Patsy's or Verasano's pie I believe (although I haven't had a "true" either one of those).  I believe I have made hi temp pies that are close but maybe not exactly the same. 

At high temp (and short bakes - 800F and under 2 min) there is much moisture left in the crust and it ends up softening up the crust and bottom a bit taking away from the crunch that I like.   Even if I rest the pie on a grate so it can breathe and cool a bit, the bottom ends up going soft shortly after slicing as the trapped steam and moisture does it's work to produce a floppy foldable slice.  Maybe I need to lower my hydration level a bit and try again?  ???

Do you know if there is a big difference b/t a Patsy's/Verasano pie and a true Neopolitan?  Is Patsy's what you would classify as a NY-politan?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 07:56:28 AM by Tranman »

Offline scott123

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2010, 11:42:55 PM »
I prefer droop, but with 65% doughs, 2.5 minute baking times and cooling on the tray (rather than the rack), I was getting too much droop, so I backed off the temp (600 to 500), increased the baking time to 4.5 minutes, started cooling the pie on a rack and now I'm getting the right amount of droop.  I also have been playing around with leaving the dough uncovered for a bit pre-opening to let the skin dry up a bit.  I hate it when the outside of the dough gets so dry it cracks when you open it, but a little time out helps to give you a crispier outer crust without the cracks. Also, if I have time, I flour the peel liberally and let the opened skin sit on that for a few minutes.  This not only dries the exterior, but it lets the gluten relax a bit after the agitation of opening.

I classify Patsy's, John's, Grimaldi's and Lombardi's (all Coal) as 'Neo-Neapolitan.' It's not a term you see much, and it's, by nature, a little redundant ;) but the higher temp of these coal ovens and the use of starters places these legendary pizzerias outside of the traditional NY classification. NY style, imo, is strictly a 450-700 deck oven endeavor.  Anything else isn't NY style.

NY-politan is something I just made up :)  I was remembering one of your previous posts where you were striving for something between NY and Naples.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2010, 12:43:53 AM »
Scott not sure if you've tried this or not but if you want a bit of a skin on the bottom of the pie, I have on occasion allowed the skin to sit on the counter for a bit after stretching.  This allows the skin to dry a bit as you said.  When I'm ready to dress the pie, I flip the skin over so that the dry side goes on the peel and the moist side is up.    I do like this as it gives me a little more crisp on the bottom of the pie.

Instead of NY-politan, how about Newpolitan?  :P  Yes at one time I thought that was what I wanted but maybe what I really want sounds more like a cross between a NY and an American style pie so maybe a New American Pie.  Hmmm not sure as I'll have to let that one brew a bit. 

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2010, 04:53:07 AM »
Tranman, thats a great tip about drying the skin slightly!


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2010, 07:29:22 AM »
Brady, I forgot to mention that the "skin" once turned over onto the peel also allows using less flour on the peel.  It dramatically reduces sticking even without using cornmeal or semolina. 

This method works best on a skin that is semi thin and under 14"?  The longer the skin sits before going on the peel the higher the tendecy to restick to your counter unless it's floured really well. I can't imagine employing this technique on a thin 18" pie. It probably wouldn't be easy.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 08:11:26 AM by Tranman »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2010, 09:30:59 AM »
I classify Patsy's, John's, Grimaldi's and Lombardi's (all Coal) as 'Neo-Neapolitan.'

In his book, American Pie, Peter Reinhart also refers to the pizzas from the above pizzerias, as well as the New Haven style, as "Neo-Neapolitan". The cookbook author and celebrity David Rosengarten has referred to the pizzas from these pizzerias, and the New Haven style and the Di Fara's pizzas as well, as "NYapolitan" (pronounced "New York-apolitan") style pizzas.

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2010, 12:02:34 PM »
In his book, American Pie, Peter Reinhart also refers to the pizzas from the above pizzerias, as well as the New Haven style, as "Neo-Neapolitan". The cookbook author and celebrity David Rosengarten has referred to the pizzas from these pizzerias, and the New Haven style and the Di Fara's pizzas as well, as "NYapolitan" (pronounced "New York-apolitan") style pizzas.

Really? Interesting.  Maybe I need to start saying nicer things about Reinhart ;) I'm not sure I'm happy about New Haven getting lumped in there, though. Sure, the coal ovens are the same, but isn't New Haven unique enough to just be 'New Haven?'  I kind of think of New Haven like I think of Trenton.  Trenton is it's own style.


Tranman, the dry/flip idea sounds like a good one. Thanks.

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2010, 12:50:13 PM »
Tran
Well although you were not transported to a higher place of pizzadom they do look excellent and it sounds like some texture differences were there, good show!
Quote
The texture was quite good BUT i believe it had more to do with a new method of kneading I tried than the caputo flour itself.
Might I inquire as to your new kneading method?

Thanks for all the info already and you have given me an idea for a new approach.  I am not really trying to achieve a Neapolitan as that is not possible, but aiming for my own hybrid.  NY-New Haven-NEA-Hoga-politan.  If I ever achieve it I will have to think of a new name for sure.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2010, 07:35:13 PM »
Hog never say never .   :-D  I like the name of your new pie.  I had just about given up on caputo, but these 2 pies gave me some hope again. ;D

Nothing really new about this technique but new for me.  So I've been reading the forum looking at recipes and techniques involving caputo and neopolitan.  A couple of techniques caught my attention and I wanted to try them.  Sorry I can't give credit where it is due since I've looked at so many recipes, but you guys know who you are.  Thank you!!

-Use cold water
-Add a little flour at a time
-24 hour preferment, some say same day.  So no cold fermentation, but some ppl make great looking NP using cold fermentation.
-I also looked at a VPN recipe & method posted in the Patsy's thread and took note of the hand kneading technique.  From what I recall, the dough was hand kneaded for around 30m or so.  It would appear that caputo, being low in protein would require or could tolerate extensive (hand) kneading, although I have also read that some are not kneading much at all.  Go figure huh.   As Bill's signature says, pizza making is mostly science and part magic or something like that. 

With all this and 8 slices formula in mind, a recalled a tidbit of info from J. Varasano's site mentioning that most of the mixing should be done when the dough is wet and that the flour is added in gradually.  A small but dim light bulb came on and I set out on another experiment.  Out came the food processor.  Ice cold water was used and ADY/Starter was mixed with the water.  Salt was added to the flour and only about 50-60% of the flour was incorporated and mixed well so that I now had a batter consistency.   I proceeded to over mix/knead using the pulse button checking the temps often.  I was suprise that the temp wasn't rising much as before and realized that with the batter that loose there was a lot less friction.  I must have mixed the dough with about 50 revolutions? adding in another 50% of the remaining flour and mixed some more, and then the rest of the flour gradually.   All the while making sure the dough temp didn't exceed 80F. 

Don't ask me about the 80F temp but apparently it is important.  ;)  The dough was folded/balled several times and allowed to bulk rise for 1-2 hours and then reballed and allowed for the final rise.  At this point, you can go to cold fermentation if you like or allow to proof until bake. 

The result was an improved crumb structure and texture different than my usual pies.  Take a look at the crumb structure of the first vs  the 2nd pie (ADY vs starter).  Both exhibit a very similar look and mouth feel.  I attribute this to the kneading technique.  Keep in mind I have made somewhere in the ballpark of 120 pies or so with most of them with my previous hand kneading technique that I posted in the easy to remember NY recipe, so I know precisely how my pies look, feel, and taste.  This method gave me 2 different pies than what I usually make.  2 pies that were somewhat better.  2 pies that I was excited to eat, and I pretty much don't enjoy eating pizza at this point.  JK yall.  :-D 

Can you believe it?  Same ingredients, different method of mixing to get a different texture result?  This method gave me a texture that was reminiscent of my perfect pie.  That perfect pie was a hand kneaded pie as well but it was long ago so I don't remember the exact technique used as I was always experimenting with too many variables at the same time then.   I likely followed J. Varasano's instructions on that one as well but I can't be sure.   So at any rate, it was either dumb luck or there is magic in what Varasano says. 

Varasano says that he can make the same pie using any flour, hand kneaded or mixer.  He even posted a nice looking hand kneaded pie and claims that it's all in the technique.  Well that too has been a long time goal of mine and I think with this bit of info, I'm getting closer.  I gotta give him credit.  He's a perfectionist and has spent many years perfecting his craft.  Thanks Jeff for sharing the info. 

Hope that helps and let's see some pies Hog.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 11:17:49 PM by Tranman »

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2010, 08:39:03 PM »
So Dr Tran, I would say your experiment was a success  ;D
So I wonder how much the food processor had to do with your results.  Or was it more the mix regimen.  Or even the flour blend.  Each answer only leads to more questions it seems so I will be looking forward to your next experiment for sure.
My next will be this weekend if poss. 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2010, 09:03:28 PM »
I wonder the same thing Hog, but I have achieved a very similar texture with hand kneading before but it was with HG bread flour.

I doubt it was the 80/20 combination as I have tried 1/2 and 1/2, 2/3 and 1/3, and 3/4 and 1/4 before this and didn't get this result with any other flour or caputo 00.

I'll plan on hand mixing some dough tonight using this technique.  I'll do a comparison between AP, BF, and caputo.

If the experiment fails than I'll know it's the food pro. If successful, I'll know it's the technique.  If I get a great result with the BF and mediocre results with the AP/Caputo then it's in the management of the specific type of flour.

Anyways, I'll post up results good or bad.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 11:19:35 PM by Tranman »

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2010, 09:16:03 PM »
Maybe I didn't read carefully.  Is that dough all Caputo?  If so, that's the most golden brown crust I've ever seen it produce.  Did you use sugar in the formulation?
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2010, 09:55:21 PM »
GB, the above pies are both 80% caputo pizzeria and 20% HG BF from Sunflower whole foods market. No sugar or oil was added.

My pies are a golden color when baked in the home oven b/c I will "rim" the pie against the broiler for added browness.

As an aside I bought pizzeria caputo 00 and Antimo Caputo 00 (the Chef's flour) and neither are pure white in color whether hydrated or not.  Once mixed, my caputo dough never seems to look pure white as pics I've seen around here.  ???

Offline 8-slice

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2010, 04:59:53 AM »
Nice pies Tran!  :pizza: :pizza:

Those pics have made me hungry now at 4 am... I won't be making anything in my beast for a while, as I'm flying to NY later this morning, for a couple of weeks to visit the folks.... And see what pizza goodies I can pick up!!

Cook on!

8-slice  :chef:


 

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