Success At Home

[savor]

Have had consistent success using Pete-zza's PJ Clone recipe as a baseline. I sauced and topped with a nod to the typical margarita flavor profile. Much prefer Neapolitan style pizza but don't have a wood fired oven yet.

Details:

13.05 oz     King Author Bread Flour
0.55 oz   Sugar
0.2 oz   Kosher Salt
0.05 oz   Active Dry Yeast
0.95 oz    Vegetable Oil
7.57 oz   Warm water (110 Degrees)

1.   Add Flour, Salt, Yeast, and Sugar to Mixing Bowl first.
2.   Then add oil and water.
3.   Mix for 6 minutes at speed 2 with dough hook.
4.   Remove dough and hand kneed until smooth – about a minute
5.   Shape into dough ball, lightly oil surface, and place in covered bowel
6.   Proof dough at 100 degrees in oven for 1 hour – dough ball will look somewhat flattened and larger in size
7.   Place in fridge over night  (8 hours)
8.   Remove dough from fridge 1 Hour before making pies
9.   Toss pizza for 14” or 16” Pizza Screen
10.   Add toppings of choice and bake on lowest rack at 485 degrees for 13-14 minutes or until golden brown (Oven temps vary for everyone adjust rack and temp as needed)

Makes one 14” or thinner crust 16” pie

[WestCountry]

Great job...I love the little blisters and the color that crust. Makes me want to give that recipe a try right now! Welcome to the forum.
 
Chris

[norma427]

savor,

Great looking pie!    I really like the color of your crust!

Welcome to the forum,

Norma

[savor]

Thanks, I'm happy with the results. If you're interested in replicating the flavor profile, I've been using Pizzaiolo by Stanislaus, BelGioioso Fresh Mozzarella & grated parmigiano reggiano, chopped italian basil under the cheese, and a drizzle of EVOO to finish.

[Pete-zza]

savor,

Very nice job. Even Papa John's does not have a Margherita style pizza.

Can you tell me how many hours transpired between the time you put the dough into the refrigerator and the time when you removed the dough from the refrigerator to warm it up?

Peter

[savor]

Pete,

To answer your question I'm fairly relaxed with this aspect of the process but find that I'm in the zone 24 Hours after to get the results pictured. I've baked this dough for up to two days with good results. Haven't tried to extend the use any longer.

On a related note I mixed up a batch using some ALL Trumps (Non-Bleached/ Non-Bromated) tonight to see what happens. I'm very much into understanding the difference between the two. Will post the results.

BTW thanks for posting the baseline recipe, it was very helpful in getting me started.

Savor

[Pete-zza]

On a related note I mixed up a batch using some ALL Trumps (Non-Bleached/ Non-Bromated) tonight to see what happens. I'm very much into understanding the difference between the two. Will post the results.

Savor,

I look forward to your results using the All Trumps and any differences and preferences that you might note. Did you detect any difference in the hydration or "feel" of the dough using the All Trumps during the mixing and kneading stages?

Peter

[savor]

Of the two batches I mixed up tonight (all things equal ) I found the biggest difference in how the AT dough was much more elastic and flattened out more during the proof. The dough ball is also noticeably larger than the KABF batch. Any thoughts on why this would be the case? Given the little research I've done I'm expecting the AT crust to be a bit more chewy which isn't my favorite characteristic but I wanted to see for myself.

[Pete-zza]

Of the two batches I mixed up tonight (all things equal ) I found the biggest difference in how the AT dough was much more elastic and flattened out more during the proof. The dough ball is also noticeably larger than the KABF batch. Any thoughts on why this would be the case? Given the little research I've done I'm expecting the AT crust to be a bit more chewy which isn't my favorite characteristic but I wanted to see for myself.

Savor,

I have not personally worked with the All Trumps flour but it does have more gluten forming protein than bread flour and may produce a more elastic dough as a result. Also, because of the increased gluten, the dough will have a greater capacity to trap and retain gases during fermentation. That might be why the dough expanded more. I don't know why the dough flattened more. Usually that happens when the dough has a hydration that appreciably exceeds the rated absorption value of the flour. Using a lot of oil can also cause a similar effect.

I agree that you may get a chewier crust using the AT. That is one of the reasons why I wanted to see your results using that flour. Some years ago, Papa John's said that it used a hard red spring wheat, which is the grain that high-gluten flours are milled from. In recent years, they have said that they used a high protein flour. That change in language may have given them a broader range of protein values and brands of flours to use to make their dough. I would think that flours with a protein content of about 13.5-14.2% should work pretty well the PJ style pizza and as intended by PJs. That is one of the reasons why I often supplemented the King Arthur bread flour (KABF) with vital wheat gluten (VWG). When I recently made an emergency PJ clone dough using just KABF, I could tell the difference. Maybe I just got used to the taste and texture that the VWG added.

Peter

[savor]

Some recent pies using the same dough recipe and technique

Mascarpone e Prosciutto
Mascarpone e Speck

[Pete-zza]

savor,

Very nice job. Your pizza looks great. I think you have the PJ style down pat. I'm sure that your version is better than what you would get from PJs, apart from the fact that you are using cheeses and toppings not available at PJs.

I assume that you used the All Trumps again. If so, that demonstrates that a high-gluten flour works for the PJ style. Papa John's does not use bromated flour. That is perhaps another reason why you have gotten a higher rise using the All Trumps flour than the King Arthur bread flour.

Are there any observations or comments that you think might be helpful to others who might want to use the All Trumps? Also, do you have a preference between the 14" size and the 16" size using the same dough ball weight?

Peter

[savor]

Thanks Peter!

Actually this was with the KABF. I bailed on the All-Trumps because it was a little more chewy than what I'm going for. Also I should have noted that I augmented the recipe by keeping the same thickness factor but for a 16" pie. This just makes sense when feeding a family.

As for the flavor profile I agree... I'm not a fan of PJ's or most chains for that matter. I'm beginning to dial up the sophistication of high-quality ingredients which  I've found has spoiled my family and dinner guests who don't look at their usual pizza joints the same after I feed them. 

This makes one ball for 16" Pie

Flour (100%):    424.57 g  |  14.98 oz | 0.94 lbs (KABF)
Water (58%):    246.25 g  |  8.69 oz | 0.54 lbs
ADY (0.4%):    1.7 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (1.50%):    6.37 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.87 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):    30.99 g | 1.09 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.82 tsp | 2.27 tbsp
Sugar (4.2%):    17.83 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.47 tsp | 1.49 tbsp
Total (171.4%):   727.71 g | 25.67 oz | 1.6 lbs | TF = 0.1452556

savor,

Very nice job. Your pizza looks great. I think you have the PJ style down pat. I'm sure that your version is better than what you would get from PJs, apart from the fact that you are using cheeses and toppings not available at PJs.

I assume that you used the All Trumps again. If so, that demonstrates that a high-gluten flour works for the PJ style. Papa John's does not use bromated flour. That is perhaps another reason why you have gotten a higher rise using the All Trumps flour than the King Arthur bread flour.

Are there any observations or comments that you think might be helpful to others who might want to use the All Trumps? Also, do you have a preference between the 14" size and the 16" size using the same dough ball weight?

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Savor, welcome to the forum. Excellent looking pies and beautiful photography work.   I'm a bit perplexed that your pies don't look dried out for the oven times you are baking them at.   Again, very nice work. 

Chau

[savor]

Thanks Chau. As you know everyone has different oven environments and I've found that using a screen on the bottom rack without a pizza stone @ 485 for 14 minutes gets me the results I'm used to getting in my commercial baking past... who knew? The crust is moist and has an artisan bread aroma and crumb when I'm in the zone.

Savor, welcome to the forum. Excellent looking pies and beautiful photography work.   I'm a bit perplexed that your pies don't look dried out for the oven times you are baking them at.   Again, very nice work. 

Chau

[Pete-zza]

I'm a bit perplexed that your pies don't look dried out for the oven times you are baking them at. 

Chau,

That's a good point that escaped me. A typical PJ pizza is thicker and heavier than other styles, like the NY style, and can therefore tolerate a longer bake time. When I baked my PJ clone pizzas, I baked them at around 500 degrees F for about 9-11 minutes, depending on the toppings and the need to balance the crust color with the doneness of the toppings. These clones were with respect to the 14" size. With a lower temperature, savor may extend the bake time by a few minutes more but it is also possible that he did not have to bake the 16" version for 13-14 minutes.  Maybe he can tell us if such was the case.

Peter

[savor]

I could pull them from the oven anytime between 13 & 14 minutes. Both with the 14" and 16" pies. Depends on the toppings as you stated Peter. I like my pies golden and crisp.

Chau,

That's a good point that escaped me. A typical PJ pizza is thicker and heavier than other styles, like the NY style, and can therefore tolerate a longer bake time. When I baked my PJ clone pizzas, I baked them at around 500 degrees F for about 9-11 minutes, depending on the toppings and the need to balance the crust color with the doneness of the toppings. These clones were with respect to the 14" size. With a lower temperature, savor may extend the bake time by a few minutes more but it is also possible that he did not have to bake the 16" version for 13-14 minutes.  Maybe he can tell us if such was the case.

Peter

[savor]

A recent pie made with the same technique. The key differences are this dough was used 48 hours after as opposed to 24. I also let it warm up 1.5 hr after pulling from the fridge as opposed to 1Hr. The result was an even crispier crust with a moist and airy crumb.

Flavor Profile:
Red Sauce
Fresh Basil
Fresh Mozzarella
Imported Speck

Finished With:
Baby Arugula
EVOO
Juice of 1/2 lemon
Parmigiano-Reggiano

[Jackie Tran]

Savor, thanks for posting your results.  Your pies look fantastic and I'm sure they taste great too.  They look like pizza art. 

Lately I have been slowly changing my opinion about flours vs bake times.   I haven't had time to test my theories but I highly suspect that BF's and HG flours require a much longer bake time than what I had presumed.  I had forgotten about this thread and your 14min bake time until you updated it.  Thanks for doing that.  Heck, if you are getting great results thats all that matters. 

I use to be one of these ppl who pushed for a quick bake time to spare the cheese from drying out, but apparently the BF/HG flours require the 8-10 min plus bake times for best results. 

Cheers,
Chau

[savor]

Jackie,

You're welcome, and thanks!. I also had the same perspective when i started, but I found this sweet spot after a few "lessons" with KABF that has been getting me consistent results every time with my home set-up. I posted some picks under the same post... I was having problems getting my attachments down to 128kB. It would be great if the forum platform could auto-optimize the attachments

Best,
Savor

Savor, thanks for posting your results.  Your pies look fantastic and I'm sure they taste great too.  They look like pizza art. 

Lately I have been slowly changing my opinion about flours vs bake times.   I haven't had time to test my theories but I highly suspect that BF's and HG flours require a much longer bake time than what I had presumed.  I had forgotten about this thread and your 14min bake time until you updated it.  Thanks for doing that.  Heck, if you are getting great results thats all that matters. 

I use to be one of these ppl who pushed for a quick bake time to spare the cheese from drying out, but apparently the BF/HG flours require the 8-10 min plus bake times for best results. 

Cheers,
Chau

[Essen1]

Excellent looking pies, Savor. They look well executed.

I noticed the high amount of oil in your dough and the low hydration. Is there a specific reason why you use 7.3% of oil? Doesn't it make the crust too soft?

I'm asking because that's exactly what I noticed in my own doughs when I go above the 2.5% range.