Author Topic: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?  (Read 58001 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2010, 08:34:23 PM »
I didn't get any call backs from the ultra-thin company today, but I tried two more different emails I found and inquired about their products.  At least they didn't come back saying they didn't have an email address.

Norma


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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2010, 11:32:23 PM »
I think the pizza would be better if you use a $100 bill. :-)
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2010, 10:36:48 AM »
Well, my one email came back from Ultra-thin pizza girl, saying there was no such address.  The email I sent to Doug Bronsky, who is supposed to be the President of the Ultra-thin company, didnít come back, but hasnít been answered either.  I never got a call-back from a voice mail I left either.   ::)

Looks like I am going to have to try and figure out what might be in this dough by doing some research at the nutrition data website at http://www.nutritiondata.com/ .

Norma

Offline Kemosa

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2010, 05:10:35 PM »
Hi Norma,

I'm surprised you've gotten little or no response from Ultra-Thin.  I am using them with my small concession business and have had wonderful customer service from them.  I am using the 16" original shell (1/16").  I work with a really nice lady, Cherise who generally answers the phone.  Her email is listed on the contact page of their website.  My last order came directly from them via 2-day Fed Ex.  You can try Julius Silvert in NE Phila, but they only carry the 12" shell.


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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2010, 05:54:42 PM »
Hi Norma,

I'm surprised you've gotten little or no response from Ultra-Thin.  I am using them with my small concession business and have had wonderful customer service from them.  I am using the 16" original shell (1/16").  I work with a really nice lady, Cherise who generally answers the phone.  Her email is listed on the contact page of their website.  My last order came directly from them via 2-day Fed Ex.  You can try Julius Silvert in NE Phila, but they only carry the 12" shell.



Kemosa,

Are you talking about Ultra-Thin or your distributor for them?  I did call the number for Ultra-Thin in Long Island New York and never got a call back from them.  I also tried the email on the website and it came back to me saying no such address.  I then tried Doug's email and still haven't heard from him.  Would you mind telling me if you orders come directly from New York?  I will try Juilus Sivert in NE Phila., next week since Monday is a holiday.  I wanted to ask one other question.  What do you think of their product?  I did really enjoy the Ultra-Thin pizzas when I tried them.

Thanks for your help,

Norma

Offline Kemosa

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2010, 07:31:19 PM »
Sure Norma,

I ordered them directly from their headquarters on Long Island because Julius Silvert and Sysco only stocked the 12" shell.  I did ask the guy from Julius Silvert if he would stock the larger shell and he said that he would gladly look into it for me.  His name is Alex Jackson if you need a contact name there.

Certainly though, Cherise from Ultra-Thin was very helpful in my quest to obtain their product, so I would call her on Tuesday.  You can mention my name (Todd) and Trolley Car Pizza.

As far as the product, I have not yet tried as our first event is next Friday.  We have a small concession cart that has a wood fired oven in it and I was going to use frozen dough balls from Bova but when I Googled pizza shells about 2 months ago, I came upon these and all the accolades it has received.  I was really surprised and also very happy that you started the thread!  It's made me feel good about the product that I am about to offer.  Good luck and I hope you get through to them next week.

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2010, 08:14:35 PM »
Kemosa,

I will call Ultra-Thin again on Wednesday.  I am at market on Tuesday. I also tried to get the shells through Sysco Foods in Harrisburg and they didnít stock any.  The sales rep there sold me a product that she said was the Ultra-Thins, but it wasnít.   

Best of luck to you with your concession cart.  :)  Sounds like fun.  Let us all know how you like the Ultra-Thin shells.  Did the Ultra-Thin Company say they could be cooked in a WFO?  Arenít the Ultra-Thin products frozen?  When I saw them making the pizzas in New York they were using a small conveyor oven.  Maybe the Ultra-Thins shells can be used in anything.  They really were delicious.  ;D

Thanks for your help,

Norma

Offline Kemosa

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2010, 08:29:19 PM »
Thanks Norma, I'm looking forward to it.  Yes, they do come frozen. and she seemed to think it would be fine as it would be similiar to baking out a focaccia type bread.  As you can imagine it will be a quick bake even at 750 degrees which is on the low side for WFO.

Appreciate your insight on the product and I'll let you know how it goes. 

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2010, 08:47:11 PM »
Thanks Norma, I'm looking forward to it.  Yes, they do come frozen. and she seemed to think it would be fine as it would be similiar to baking out a focaccia type bread.  As you can imagine it will be a quick bake even at 750 degrees which is on the low side for WFO.

Appreciate your insight on the product and I'll let you know how it goes. 

Kemosa,

I can imagine it will be a quick bake.  I am anxious to see how you like them.  If you have any shells leftover, if you want, try one in your home oven to see what happens.

I appreciate you taking the time to tell us about you trying this product out.

Norma


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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2010, 09:50:06 AM »


I call Ultra-thin pizza this morning and talked to Cherise.  She told me, unfortunately there arenít any distributors in my area.  The closest city would be Allentown.  I ask Cherise about samples to try in my deck oven and she said they did send samples, but it would cost 25.00 for shipping from FedEx. 

I asked the prices for 12" and 14" pizza shells and what the added shipment costs would be on those items.  She said someone are would call me back this afternoon with a price quote.

I will then try to find out what kind of ingredients are in the ultra-thin shells.

Norma

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2010, 11:51:44 AM »
I did get a call back from Megan at Ultra-thin.  She said flour used in the pizza shells is bromated.  There are no animal fats used in the dough, but I couldnít find out what kind of oil is used.  I asked if any sugar is used in the dough and at first she said yes and then checked over the ingredients used in the dough and said there are none listed.  I questioned her again, because I said on the nutritional facts it said sugar, but she said no sugar is added to the dough, after she asked someone else.

The price quote she gave me for a case of 14" ultra-thin pizza shell, 50 in a case was 69.30, including shipping from FedEx, two day shipping.  For a 12" ultra-thin pizza shell in a case of 50 including shipping from FedEx, the price quoted was 62.70.

Megan said for my Bakerís Pride deck oven the recommended temperature would be 500 degrees F.

Norma

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2010, 12:24:38 PM »
Norma, I would explain to them that you have customers with allergies, and, before you place an order, you need them to scan a nutritional/ingredient label and email it to you. Once you have that, as long as you can recall what the pizzas at the food show tasted like, it shouldn't be that hard to reproduce.

$60 seems a lot to spend to get a list of ingredients/nutritional info.  It's not like fedexed shells are going to taste all that great.  I guarantee you that the ones they had at the food show were made that day/never frozen so the ones you're going to get won't be comparable.

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2010, 12:49:15 PM »
scott123,

I did find the nutritional facts on Ultra-thin website.  I didnít ask about allergies, but did questioned them about sugar for customers that might be on low glycemic diets. 

I also wonder how the shells would taste after being shipped.  I didnít ask if they would be shipped with some kind of Styrofoam container with maybe U-tek material to keep the product cold.  I did just get a shipment from Foremost Farms for cheese and that shipment was in a really nice Styrofoam container.  It was still cold, but that product wasnít frozen. 

I will wait and see if  Kemosa finds this Ultra-thin product good when shipped by FedEx.  I also wonder how that will be. 

I have to look into how to calculate how this dough might be made.

I really donít think I will purchase this product, but wanted to see if I could get a sample to try.  For 25.00 shipping from FedEx, I donít think I will go for that route.

Thanks for your help,

Norma

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2010, 01:43:49 PM »
Norma,

Based on your recent posts, I think that something like the General Mills Full Strength flour, as detailed at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/FullStrength%20Enr%20Mal%20Bl%20Bro53381.doc, might come close to meeting the numbers given in the Ultra-Thin Nutrition Facts at http://www.ultrathinpizza.com/products/nutrition-labels/pdfs/ultrathinpizza-nutrition-facts-original-thin-crust-14inch-8.5oz.pdf for the 14" size that you are investigating. The GM Full Strength flour is a bleached bromated flour with a nominal protein content of 12.6%. It will take some work to determine how much flour is used because of dough losses during baking and the Nutrition Facts are for an 8-ounce serving whereas a baked Ultra-Thin 14" par-baked crust weighs 8.5 ounces. The Nutrition Facts also use rounding of numbers, which adds to the challenge of coming up with accurate numbers for the various ingredients.

The saturated fat content of the GM Full Strength flour is low but many oils, like olive oil and vegetable oil (soybean oil), also include saturated fats in far greater quantity than flour. I believe that just about all of the sat fat in the Ultra-Thin product comes from added oil. The GM Full Strength flour also contains some sodium but it is de minimus. That means that most of the sodium comes from salt added to the dough.

It might be helpful if you can get an ingredients list but I suspect that it would be quite broad--maybe something straightforward like flour, water, oil, salt, yeast. It is also possible that the yeast quantity is far greater than we might think. Doughs for thin-crust pizzas, like cracker-style doughs, often contain a lot of yeast for taste purposes. Such doughs are often rolled out so fermentation and getting a rise in the dough are secondary if you are going to roll the skins out anyway.

You are perhaps a few data points away from coming up with a test dough formulation, like hydration and mode of fermentation.

Do you have any bleached bromated flour with a protein content of around 12.6% to experiment with?

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For a current link to the Full Strength flour, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/full-strength-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/53381000

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2010, 02:23:05 PM »
Peter,

I only have the Kryol and Pillsbury Balancer flours right now that are bleached and bromated.  I could also check my local Country Store to see is they carry General Mills Full Strength flour.  I was just at the Country store and purchased a pastry flour in combination with another flour, that I want to try in another experiment.

I will look what kind of vegetable or olive oils I have at home or at market.  I can understand that most of the salt would come from adding it to the dough. 

Since  more yeast might be added for flavor of the crust, do you have any ideas of where I should start with for the yeast?  I will be rolling this dough out.  As for fermentation, I donít believe they would give this ultra-thin dough a long ferment.  Maybe only a one day cold ferment.

I would think at this point there would be a lower hydration in trying this ultra-thin dough.  I donít know what your opinion on trying this Ultra-Thin dough is, but I was looking somewhere between 45-48% hydration, salt around 1% and olive oil or vegetable oil, in a higher amount of around 15-21 %.

Any thoughts about these numbers and percents would be appreciated,

Norma

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2010, 02:56:59 PM »
Norma,

I don't have any idea as to the amount of yeast, and there is nothing in the Ultra-Thin nutrition data that reveals that. I think I would have a better idea if I knew the type and duration of fermentation.

I think the best approach for the moment is to address the flour, salt and oil issues first since it seems possible to isolate the nutrition information that is unique to those three ingredients. For example, the sodium information is limited mainly to added salt and the fat information is limited mainly to added oil. The total carbs, dietary fiber, sugars and protein are more closely related to the flour.

As for the type of oil to use, I think I would go with olive oil only because it should add some flavor to the finished crust. The nutrition data does not suggest 15-21% oil. The data suggests much less than that.

If the quantities of ingredients for the main ingredients of the Ultra-Thin clone dough can be ascertained, maybe the hydration number can be calculated rather than just guessing at it.

I am thinking aloud here. I will have to stare at the numbers some more to get a better feel for things.

Peter

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2010, 06:02:24 PM »
Norma,

I have set forth two dough formulations below for you to consider. The main objective at this point is to get an idea as to extent of the dough weight losses during baking. In coming up with the dough formulations, I had to make several assumptions. First, I assumed that the flour is like the GM Full Strength flour, for the reasons earlier mentioned. If the Ultra-Thin company is using a flour with a different profile, which might also be a proprietary flour milled to Ultra-Thinís requirements, then the dough formulations will be different. Without more or better intelligence, there is no way to know if the differences will be material. Second, I assumed a dough weight loss of 5% and used that figure to modify the Ultra-Thin nutrition information to reflect that assumption. I ended up with an unbaked dough ball weight of 8.925 ounces for the 14Ē par-baked crust. For this amount of dough used to make a 14Ē skin, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.05798. Obviously, if the weight loss of the dough during par-baking is more than my estimated 5%, then that will mean that that thickness factor is too low and needs upward revision. That is the reason for the bake test.

From my analysis, I concluded that the bulk of the calories of the par-baked crust come from the flour. Since oil is used in the dough, there will be calories added by the oil also. Based on the Ultra-Thin nutrition data, and adjusting for the fats normally present in flour, I estimated that the amount of oil used in an Ultra-Thin 14Ē par-baked crust to be a bit over 1ľ t. It doesnít matter if the oil is olive oil or vegetable (soybean) oil. Based on the sodium content of the Ultra-Thin 14Ē par-baked crust, and adjusting for the sodium that naturally occurs in the flour, I concluded that the added salt comes to a bit over 1/3 t. For the yeast, I arbitrarily used 0.5% (IDY) coupled with an assumption that the dough would be cold fermented for one day. Increasing or decreasing the yeast quantity will affect the weights of the other ingredients, but yeast is so light that its affect on total weight should be negligible.

When I came up with the weights of all of the ingredients but for the water, and calculating their combined caloric contributions (the salt has zero calories and the yeast should be de minimus from a caloric standpoint), the best number that I could come up with for the hydration is around 38%. If that number is anywhere near correct, then the dough will not be the easiest to roll out. I suggest a rolling pin for this purpose and, for the preliminary test, not to use heat application, as by using your Hadco unit, to make rolling the dough out easier. That approach might be used in a later experiment if needed.

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with the following dough formulation for a single dough ball for a 14Ē par-baked crust:

Flour* (100%):
Water (38.2%):
IDY (0.50%):
Salt (1.16448%):
Olive Oil (3.21128%):
Total (143.07576%):
176.85 g  |  6.24 oz | 0.39 lbs
67.56 g  |  2.38 oz | 0.15 lbs
0.88 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
2.06 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
5.68 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
253.02 g | 8.92 oz | 0.56 lbs | TF = N/A
*General Mills Full Strength bromated flour
Note: Dough is for a single 14Ē par-baked crust; nominal thickness factor = 0.05798; no bowl residue compensation

Having worked with low hydration doughs before, I learned how difficult it can be to roll out such a dough to an given size and have the skin be perfectly round. For that reason, I suggest that you use the thickness factor option in the expanded dough calculating tool and use a pizza size of about 1Ē greater than the desired final size. In your case, you might use 15Ē as the pizza skin size and use a template to cut out a 14Ē skin after you have rolled out the dough to about 15Ē. Using this method, the dough formulation becomes:

Flour* (100%):
Water (38.2%):
IDY (0.50%):
Salt (1.16448%):
Olive Oil (3.21128%):
Total (143.07576%):
203.02 g  |  7.16 oz | 0.45 lbs
77.55 g  |  2.74 oz | 0.17 lbs
1.02 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
6.52 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
290.47 g | 10.25 oz | 0.64 lbs | TF = 0.05798
*General Mills Full Strength bromated flour
Note: Dough is for a 15Ē skin; no bowl residue compensation

You should feel free to use 16Ē in the dough calculating tool if you think that using 15Ē is cutting it too close.

In making the dough, you might also consider using a food processor. I found the food processor to be the best machine to use to make a low hydration dough. When using a food processor, I usually use a bowl residue compensation of 1%. I will also leave to you whether the skin should be docked before par-baking. I suspect that you did not notice whether the Ultra-Thin crusts you sampled evidenced docking.

Of course, you will want to weigh the 14" skin before and after baking, and note the difference.

I canít tell you that you will enjoy success with the above dough formulations. I do not have any particular expertise in matters of this sort, so it is possible that my assumptions and calculations are not completely correct. I have also encountered cases where nutrition information turned out to be incorrect. However, when I calculated the total calories from all sources, I came quite close to the Ultra-Thin number.

Peter


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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2010, 07:37:02 PM »
Peter,

I will look for the GM Full Strength flour at my local Country Store.  If I canít find that flour, I will try the first attempt with Kyrol flour.  I understand how dough losses weight when baked.  I will do a bake test first to see what kind of results there will be.
 
I am going to use your second formula for 15" crust  you set forth and try my food processor to mix the dough.  I can see at 38% hydration, this will be hard to roll out. I will note any problems. The flour will be sifted to see if that can help the flour hydrate better. I probably will use the expanded dough calculating tool and put in a bowl residue of 1%.  The dough will be weighed before and after the bake to note what difference there will be. 

I didnít notice if the dough was docked when I tried the pizza at the NY Restaurant Food Show and Pizza Expo, but would imagine it needs to be docked.  When I tried the Bittmanís formula, even with docking with a fork and no yeast, the dough still wanted to rise.

I still canít figure out how you can do these calculations, just based on a label with nutritional facts.  Hopefully one day I will be able to understand all this and be able to figure this out myself.  At least there were some nutritional facts listed and there arenít any cheese or sauce to figure out. I never would have wanted to try this is all this had to be figured out.  I am still having problems figuring out the Mackís clone, with dough, sauce and cheese. 

If any changes are needed from here, I will try to figure out how to make those changes.

For the cost that the Ultra-Thin Company wants for their 14" shells and the dough usually being the cheapest ingredient, hopefully this is something I can do. 

I will probably try this formula over the weekend.

Thanks for setting forth a formula for anyone that wants to try this.

Norma 

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2010, 07:51:48 PM »
Norma,

I forgot to mention in my last post that General Mills also has a flour called Superlative that appears to have specs that are the same as the Full Strength, at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/SUPERLATIVE%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT%2056574.doc. If there are differences in the two specs, I couldn't find them.

I checked all of the white flour categories in the nutritiondata.com database and I also checked the bromated flours at the GM professional flours website. I plan to go back and look at some of the GM high-gluten flours to see if the specs line up with the Ultra-Thin nutrition information. The data at nutritiondata.com did not suggest that possibility but their data is not as comprehensive as the GM specs. It would take a meaningful reduction in the amount of flour to push the hydration into the 40+% range. I'll let you know if I find anything of significance.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For a current link to the Superlative flour, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/superlative-flour-50-lb/56573000

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2010, 07:58:16 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for mentioning that Superlative appears to have the same specs as Full Strength.  I will also check for that flour in the next two days. 

Norma

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2010, 08:13:09 PM »
Norma,

I took a quick look at the GM specs for the bromated All-Trumps high-gluten flour, which is comparable to the other bromated high-gluten flours you mentioned. On the surface it appears that the AT high-gluten flour might also be a viable candidate for what you want to do. The specs can be seen at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/AllTrumpsEnrMaltBl%20Br50111.doc. I will have to do some more work to verify whether the AT flour is a viable candidate. However, at first blush it does not appear that the numbers will change all that much to cause us to revisit our decision. When I was doing all of the calculations, I couldn't help but notice how much rounding of numbers there is in the nutrition information.

If you can't find either the Full Strength or Superlative flours, I think I would go with whatever bromated high-gluten flour you have on hand.

Peter

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2010, 08:22:54 PM »
Peter,

I just looked at the distributor C.O. Nolt & Sons, where I buy my flour and see they have the GM Full Strength bleached flour and I know they carry All Trumps.  I will call them tomorrow and see what price their flour is.  They are usually reasonable.  I think when I used to purchase All Trumps it was about 12.00 for a 50 lb. bag.

http://www.conolt.com/categories.asp?ID=1

Thanks for the information,

Norma

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2010, 08:31:26 PM »
Norma,

You might want to try using high-gluten flour to see if we are in the ballpark. Otherwise you may end up with a lot of flour on your hands to use up.

Peter

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2010, 08:56:27 PM »
Norma,

Doing all this number crunching can turn your mind to mush but I ran the numbers using the All-Trumps flour anyway. Using the thickness factor option in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, and assuming a 15" skin and a bowl residue compensation of 1%, I believe this is the proper dough formulation for the AT case:

Flour* (100%):
Water (40.613%):
IDY (0.50%):
Salt (1.18461%):
Olive Oil (3.26679%):
Total (145.5644%):
201.54 g  |  7.11 oz | 0.44 lbs
81.85 g  |  2.89 oz | 0.18 lbs
1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
2.39 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
6.58 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.46 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
293.38 g | 10.35 oz | 0.65 lbs | TF = 0.0585598
*General Mills bromated All-Trumps flour
Note: Dough is for a single 15" dough skin; nominal thickness factor = 0.05798; bowl residue compensation = 1%

I think I have given you all the information you need to change things if you wish.

Peter

Online norma427

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Re: Ultra-Thin Pizza 1/16"..Any Ideas?
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2010, 09:18:45 PM »
Peter,

I can only imagine what all the number crunching would do to my brain.  It would have been mush a long time ago.  At least you are patient with the numbers, more than I ever could be.  I will see about the cost of All Trumps. I know it is a lot cheaper than KASL. At least I can use that for future experiments and keep the rest of the flour in the freezer.  Or maybe even sell some at market.

Thanks again for the calculations,

Norma