Author Topic: Tossing dough and hydration levles  (Read 5830 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gijoe985

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 81
Tossing dough and hydration levles
« on: May 28, 2010, 01:43:15 PM »
Hi again,

Although I think I make the best pizza you can get in my small town, and all my friends love it, I feel that I have a lot of growing to do. On thing in particular is tossing nice round pies. I feel that my dough is strong, but I feel that it stretches out really thin really easily. Check out this video that I am sure many of you have seen-



I know my dough could not handle that type of treatment. Now, part of this is probably because I have been going with higher hydration levels. Like 67% or so. And I read that many NY places will go into the 50's to make their dough easier to toss. Should I play around with that? I feel like to go that low on hydration I'd need to really let the dough sit so that the flour and water really have time to mix. I feel like the lower the hydration I go, the more in need of an "autolysing period" is needed.

Anyway, I know I could up the salt to make a tossing dough, but my goal isn't show, in the end it is taste. But I feel like my dough should still be more tossible than it is.

Offline gijoe985

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 81
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2010, 02:11:32 PM »
Quickly just want to clarify. I don't have too much trouble tossing my dough, but I DO think it could be made more tossible with some recipe or procedure changes. I guess I just wanted to confirm that I wasn't looking for tossing instructions.

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8022
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2010, 02:19:55 PM »
I would agree with all your above points.  Are you using a mixer or hand kneading?  I think a mixer does a better job with a lower hydration doughs. 

I posed a similar question to yours about a similar video and his hydration ratio just a few days ago. Apparently it's another mystery of pizza making as it makes little sense to me as well.   If I handled pizza dough like these guys did I would have a tough crumb.  So my only guess is maybe it's the oil or any dough softeners or conditioners?

« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 02:22:09 PM by Tranman »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24986
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2010, 02:32:17 PM »
gijoe985,

What kind and brand of flour are you using, what pizza size are you making, and are you using any oil and, if so, how much?

Peter

Offline gijoe985

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 81
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2010, 02:47:16 PM »
Largest Kitchen Aid mixer you can get (that's not commercial).
Pendleton High Gluten Flour (Power Flour- http://www.pfmills.com/premiumflours.htm)
Typically a 16" pie
1% oil on average. I have played with numbers up to 4% which matches my Pita bread recipe.
65-67% hydration.

I'm thinking about trying a 60% hydration.


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24986
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2010, 03:25:54 PM »
gijoe985,

I was going to suggest starting at 58% hydration and work your way up a percent or two each time until you find what works best for you.

Peter

Offline pizzadoughboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 26
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2010, 12:34:58 PM »
I dropped mine to 56% and my dough comes out pretty "tear" resistant.  Also make sure you aren't overkneading the dough.

Offline gijoe985

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 81
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2010, 11:52:29 PM »
I dropped mine to 56% and my dough comes out pretty "tear" resistant.  Also make sure you aren't overkneading the dough.

I always think that I underknead the dough. I guess that is another thing I am trying to get a solid grip on. And don't get me wrong, I made some amazing pies tonight. Did 60% hydration, but just did a counter top rise for a couple hours. Still turned out great. Today I played with cheeses. 4 10" pies. Two with part skim low moist, one with whole low moist, and one with fresh. All Precious brand. They all were good, but the whole milk one was a nice compromise.

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8022
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2010, 01:13:04 AM »
I always think that I underknead the dough. I guess that is another thing I am trying to get a solid grip on. And don't get me wrong, I made some amazing pies tonight. Did 60% hydration, but just did a counter top rise for a couple hours. Still turned out great. Today I played with cheeses. 4 10" pies. Two with part skim low moist, one with whole low moist, and one with fresh. All Precious brand. They all were good, but the whole milk one was a nice compromise.

As I have recently learned that underkneading is "better" than overkneading dough.  If the texture of the crumb is soft and you are happy with the result than I wouldn't change it.  Overkneading can lead to a dry leathery tasting crumb even if it's not too chewy.  Also with a 60% hydration ratio, you are better off underkneading as overkneading (esp of a low hydration as you are using) can lead to a really tough dough that will be hard to open even if proofed to room temperature.   
  Especially if you are cold fermenting, I've been told that there is plenty of time here for gluten to develop so it isn't even necessary for you to knead that much.  I've use "no knead" techniques and have still gotten good gluten development and good result.

Offline Morgan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 393
  • Location: Finland
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 05:26:45 PM »
With dough hydration around 63-65% i never get good tossable dough, is it impossible to get good dough for tossing such a high hydration ?
I dont toss these 63-65% balls, but what formula should i use if i would like to test bulletproof dough for tossing ?

Offline tdub154420

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 57
  • Age: 27
  • Location: Denver, CO
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2013, 01:12:43 AM »
I'm very interested about this too.  Does anybody here toss there pies vigorously? I would really like to know their level of hydration. 

I don't feel like I've ever made dough that's that squishy, that tossible.  What makes it so squishy and stretchable?
- Trevor

Offline PizzaJerk

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 255
  • Location: PA
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2013, 12:24:55 PM »
The more you handle (especially so if you're tossing it in this manner) a dough of any level hydration the tougher and more dense the crumb and overall texture will become. The proper way is to take your time and treat the dough gently (from initial mixing to final formation or the skin just prior to baking) and it will reward you with a beautiful result. Do this only if you want to put on a show.

Anthony
May I glorify the Lord in all that I do.

https://www.facebook.com/TheLunchRoomPenArgyl


Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3140
  • Age: 45
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2013, 02:02:51 PM »
Im sorry to be negative, but dont worry about emulating this pizzeria.    It sounds to me like you were already on the right track and places like this are actually making you take steps backwards.    Thats a dough with hydration in the 50's with highish gluten bromated flour that has been over mixed and under fermented.   This is not a world class pizzeria.    If you want papa johns, domino's, then use this as your benchmark, but come on.... lets watch some chris bianco videos or something to get some inspiration from!   

     

One more note.....  its next to impossible to make a dough like this with a home mixer, and yes your on the right track, the only way at home is with rest periods... still its not as good as a hobart.      ALL small (home mixers) develop the dough way to fast.... so the only way to really emulate is a tiny mix, rest, tiny bit more mixing, rest... repeat.   

 
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 02:07:40 PM by scott r »

Offline Morgan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 393
  • Location: Finland
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2013, 03:44:29 PM »
I dropped mine to 56% and my dough comes out pretty "tear" resistant.  Also make sure you aren't overkneading the dough.

I made batch of 58% and kneaded with Assistent (+10minutes) until it passed windowpane test. It is really tossable, maybe pulling
back little to much, maybe i over kneaded just a bit.

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8022
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2016, 07:15:44 AM »
I've been working with lower hydration doughs lately and it's really interesting to read my comments from 6 years ago. 

Online The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1897
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2016, 03:06:25 PM »
Here is a good dough formulation that tosses well. How well you ask??? Many years ago Tony G. hung on of the skins made from this dough up in our pizza lab rafters (20-feet high) during our AIB pizza seminar.
Flour: 100% (strong bread type flour/12.2 to 12.8% protein content)
Salt: 1.75%
Sugar: 2%
Oil: 2%
IDY: 0.375%
Water: 58% (65F)

Water is added to the bowl first, then the salt and sugar followed by the flour and IDY.
Mix dough for about 2-minutes until you don't see any dry flour in the bowl then add the oil and mix 1-minute in low speed.
Change to medium speed and mix for 10-minutes.
Target finished dough temperature is 80 to 85F.
Immediately scale and ball.
Place in dough boxes and wipe the top of the dough balls with oil.
Immediately take to the cooler and cross-stack for 3-hours.
Down-stack and allow to cold ferment for a minimum of 24-hours before using.
If you want to do it more like PJ's cold ferment for 3-days.
To use the dough, remove from the cooler and allow to warm to 50F and begin opening the dough balls into skins.
You can also see this dough in use by going to the PMQ web site <www.pmq.com> and viewing their pizza videos.
This should help in getting you started, once you have mastered the technique you can begin making changes to the dough formulation and/or dough management procedure to make different types/styles of pizza.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline waltertore

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2543
  • Location: Reno, Nevada
    • Smiling With Hope Pizza
Re: Tossing dough and hydration levles
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2016, 05:36:54 PM »
Tossing dough is easy to learn and impresses most people but for a really killer flavored crust one has to ferment the dough to peak flavor and this puts it in a delicate state so bench/hand stretching is needed.  I don't toss pies except for a news story (if they ask) because our dough is very fragile at the point we use it.  Walter

you can see it at the end of this short video NPR did on us

SMILING WITH HOPE PIZZA MISSION STATEMENT
TO CREATE HOPE AND MEANING IN THE LIVES OF PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
http://www.smilingwithhopepizza.com/