Tossing dough and hydration levles

[gijoe985]

Hi again,

Although I think I make the best pizza you can get in my small town, and all my friends love it, I feel that I have a lot of growing to do. On thing in particular is tossing nice round pies. I feel that my dough is strong, but I feel that it stretches out really thin really easily. Check out this video that I am sure many of you have seen-

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcTKeslAmk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcTKeslAmk</a>

I know my dough could not handle that type of treatment. Now, part of this is probably because I have been going with higher hydration levels. Like 67% or so. And I read that many NY places will go into the 50's to make their dough easier to toss. Should I play around with that? I feel like to go that low on hydration I'd need to really let the dough sit so that the flour and water really have time to mix. I feel like the lower the hydration I go, the more in need of an "autolysing period" is needed.

Anyway, I know I could up the salt to make a tossing dough, but my goal isn't show, in the end it is taste. But I feel like my dough should still be more tossible than it is.

[gijoe985]

Quickly just want to clarify. I don't have too much trouble tossing my dough, but I DO think it could be made more tossible with some recipe or procedure changes. I guess I just wanted to confirm that I wasn't looking for tossing instructions.

[Jackie Tran]

I would agree with all your above points.  Are you using a mixer or hand kneading?  I think a mixer does a better job with a lower hydration doughs. 

I posed a similar question to yours about a similar video and his hydration ratio just a few days ago. Apparently it's another mystery of pizza making as it makes little sense to me as well.   If I handled pizza dough like these guys did I would have a tough crumb.  So my only guess is maybe it's the oil or any dough softeners or conditioners?

[Pete-zza]

gijoe985,

What kind and brand of flour are you using, what pizza size are you making, and are you using any oil and, if so, how much?

Peter

[gijoe985]

Largest Kitchen Aid mixer you can get (that's not commercial).
Pendleton High Gluten Flour (Power Flour- http://www.pfmills.com/premiumflours.htm)
Typically a 16" pie
1% oil on average. I have played with numbers up to 4% which matches my Pita bread recipe.
65-67% hydration.

I'm thinking about trying a 60% hydration.

[Pete-zza]

gijoe985,

I was going to suggest starting at 58% hydration and work your way up a percent or two each time until you find what works best for you.

Peter

[pizzadoughboy]

I dropped mine to 56% and my dough comes out pretty "tear" resistant.  Also make sure you aren't overkneading the dough.

[gijoe985]

I dropped mine to 56% and my dough comes out pretty "tear" resistant.  Also make sure you aren't overkneading the dough.

I always think that I underknead the dough. I guess that is another thing I am trying to get a solid grip on. And don't get me wrong, I made some amazing pies tonight. Did 60% hydration, but just did a counter top rise for a couple hours. Still turned out great. Today I played with cheeses. 4 10" pies. Two with part skim low moist, one with whole low moist, and one with fresh. All Precious brand. They all were good, but the whole milk one was a nice compromise.

[Jackie Tran]

I always think that I underknead the dough. I guess that is another thing I am trying to get a solid grip on. And don't get me wrong, I made some amazing pies tonight. Did 60% hydration, but just did a counter top rise for a couple hours. Still turned out great. Today I played with cheeses. 4 10" pies. Two with part skim low moist, one with whole low moist, and one with fresh. All Precious brand. They all were good, but the whole milk one was a nice compromise.

As I have recently learned that underkneading is "better" than overkneading dough.  If the texture of the crumb is soft and you are happy with the result than I wouldn't change it.  Overkneading can lead to a dry leathery tasting crumb even if it's not too chewy.  Also with a 60% hydration ratio, you are better off underkneading as overkneading (esp of a low hydration as you are using) can lead to a really tough dough that will be hard to open even if proofed to room temperature.   
  Especially if you are cold fermenting, I've been told that there is plenty of time here for gluten to develop so it isn't even necessary for you to knead that much.  I've use "no knead" techniques and have still gotten good gluten development and good result.

[Morgan]

With dough hydration around 63-65% i never get good tossable dough, is it impossible to get good dough for tossing such a high hydration ?
I dont toss these 63-65% balls, but what formula should i use if i would like to test bulletproof dough for tossing ?

[tdub154420]

I'm very interested about this too.  Does anybody here toss there pies vigorously? I would really like to know their level of hydration. 

I don't feel like I've ever made dough that's that squishy, that tossible.  What makes it so squishy and stretchable?

[PizzaJerk]

The more you handle (especially so if you're tossing it in this manner) a dough of any level hydration the tougher and more dense the crumb and overall texture will become. The proper way is to take your time and treat the dough gently (from initial mixing to final formation or the skin just prior to baking) and it will reward you with a beautiful result. Do this only if you want to put on a show.

Anthony

[scott r]

Im sorry to be negative, but dont worry about emulating this pizzeria.    It sounds to me like you were already on the right track and places like this are actually making you take steps backwards.    Thats a dough with hydration in the 50's with highish gluten bromated flour that has been over mixed and under fermented.   This is not a world class pizzeria.    If you want papa johns, domino's, then use this as your benchmark, but come on.... lets watch some chris bianco videos or something to get some inspiration from!   

     

One more note.....  its next to impossible to make a dough like this with a home mixer, and yes your on the right track, the only way at home is with rest periods... still its not as good as a hobart.      ALL small (home mixers) develop the dough way to fast.... so the only way to really emulate is a tiny mix, rest, tiny bit more mixing, rest... repeat.   

 

[Morgan]

I dropped mine to 56% and my dough comes out pretty "tear" resistant.  Also make sure you aren't overkneading the dough.

I made batch of 58% and kneaded with Assistent (+10minutes) until it passed windowpane test. It is really tossable, maybe pulling
back little to much, maybe i over kneaded just a bit.