Author Topic: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough  (Read 1359 times)

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Offline StrayBullet

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Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« on: July 15, 2010, 10:51:32 PM »
I detailed the basic dough process here that I used to make the balls on Tuesday.  I was planning on using them Fri-Sat but due to a number of factors, I thought they were closer to ready now, so I made one tonite.  The first one, I messed up stretching and baking but hey, it's just like "bad sex" right  ;) :D

Because of all the errors, I found myself baking another pie at 9pm, and this one turned out much better.  I also made some new dough since I was already in the kitchen, and besides I need to bring something to pizza party on Saturday...never thought I'd be saying that phrase past the age of 40 :D


Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2010, 10:55:35 PM »
Here's what the rise looked like that led me to making the dough...the bottom was pretty wet when I removed it from the container:

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2010, 10:57:52 PM »
And here's the new ball(s) I made tonite...followed advice about kneading much closer this time.  I also adjusted the initial water temp to have a finished dough at 70 degrees and it worked out perfectly.  Everything else about the recipe I kept the same.  Oh, and I got some containers that will allow better feedback ;) :D

Online scott123

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2010, 01:39:51 AM »
Wow, Mark, slow down, you're making me dizzy!  :P

First of all, the big question- the first question we will always ask- bake time? ;D

Do you see the number of bubbles underneath the dough? Next time, double that (one more day).

Aesthetically, I think your first attempt was a little prettier, but in terms of your grasp of NY street style, I think this one reveals how much you've learned in such a short time.

That thickness factor is perfect (for street style). I think that with one more day of fermentation and a little less bake time, you'll be right on the money. Unless, of course, you're looking for an abundance of color.

Besides the visual and olfactory judgment that needs to be cultivated for determining proper dough fermentation, there's another skill set that takes more than a few attempts to master- opening and launching.  Launching is a little easier to master.  Make an extra dough ball, flour it liberally and top it with something disposable (like a pound of dried beans). Put a piece of tape on the counter, slide the pizza on to the peel, then launch it back into the counter, aiming for the tape, slide the pizza back onto the peel and do this over and over again- 100 times. Brush some of the flour off the peel for a few of the attempts so you get a feel for it when it's not so slippery.  Let the skin sit on the peel for a few minutes and see if you're able to launch that.  A few days of this kind of training and you'll have no problem launching pies.

Now opening... I would start off by watching this video a few times.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>


With a 65% hydration, minimally kneaded flour, you're never going to want to toss the dough.  Just press it with your fingers (avoiding the rim) and gently knuckle stretch it open.  I really wish there was a product that you could stretch and have it come back to a ball so you could repeat this a few hundred times, but, there isn't. Dough is cheap, and you've got plenty of flour, so I would just make a lot of dough balls and open them, one after the next. Practice going so thin you can see through it. Purposely make a tear, so you can practice repairing tears. Be aware of the thinness at the center of the skin- it takes some practice to get a uniform thickness from the center to the rim.

Those are, imo, the biggies- fermentation recognition, opening and launching. You're well on your way to 'getting' fermentation, and, with enough practice, opening and launching should be a breeze.  With your level of motivation, I have no doubt this will happen quickly  ;D

Very well done on the cottage cheese look. 





Offline norma427

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2010, 07:37:36 AM »
StrayBullet,

I think you made the right decision to use the dough ball when you did.  You said it looked pretty wet.  You are using a high hydration, for just starting out to make pizza.  A higher hydration dough will be harder to handle in my opinion, when opening the dough or being able to slide it off the peel into the oven.  How was your skin to open and then slide into the oven? 

What was your opinion on the taste of the crust?  You did a great job for just starting to make pizza.   :)

I am over 60 and still learning. With your determination you will learn.

Norma
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Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2010, 07:56:08 AM »
Wow, Mark, slow down, you're making me dizzy!  :P

First of all, the big question- the first question we will always ask- bake time? ;D

Do you see the number of bubbles underneath the dough? Next time, double that (one more day).


Bake time was 6 minutes, stone temp was 675 and back wall temp was 630 or so.  I couldn't get the oven temp up any further but I think I figured that out for next time.

I knew my patience was getting the better of me, I'll definitely let it go further next time.  I won't form it up until pics are posted and I'm told it's good to go :D

Aesthetically, I think your first attempt was a little prettier, but in terms of your grasp of NY street style, I think this one reveals how much you've learned in such a short time.

That thickness factor is perfect (for street style). I think that with one more day of fermentation and a little less bake time, you'll be right on the money. Unless, of course, you're looking for an abundance of color.



I totally agree about the appearance.  The difference between the 2 recipes was really eye opening after cold ferment and opening the dough, even cooking appearance as mentioned.  Amazing what different hydrations and oil % can do!

For a regular Lehman Ny, if my oven temp was 500 or so, am I looking at 5-6 minutes bake time, regardless of color?  I think a few of those dark spots are caused by the iron skillet I have on the top rack.  I think this is helping to retain more heat in the box and force some of the heat down on the pie, it may be too much and in fact, I actually removed the pan with about 2 minutes left to cook.

The more I play around, the more I'm nailing down what I'm actually looking for in a pizza and although a "normal" NY slice is not my end goal, I want to continue with this exact recipe, working out the kinks and trying to understand what happens when I start changing individual factors.  I'm definitely looking for more color but I don't want to expense correct cooking time for color, so I need to make sure my oven can do or bake what I'm eventually looking to do.

Besides the visual and olfactory judgment that needs to be cultivated for determining proper dough fermentation, there's another skill set that takes more than a few attempts to master- opening and launching.  Launching is a little easier to master.  Make an extra dough ball, flour it liberally and top it with something disposable (like a pound of dried beans). Put a piece of tape on the counter, slide the pizza on to the peel, then launch it back into the counter, aiming for the tape, slide the pizza back onto the peel and do this over and over again- 100 times. Brush some of the flour off the peel for a few of the attempts so you get a feel for it when it's not so slippery.  Let the skin sit on the peel for a few minutes and see if you're able to launch that.  A few days of this kind of training and you'll have no problem launching pies.


I had been doing ok with this but you obviously noted the fold on the left side of the pie....hesitation kills, it applicable in many areas of life but none more so here and now :D  I definitely need to practice a bit and maybe get a better/bigger peel.

Now opening... I would start off by watching this video a few times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA

With a 65% hydration, minimally kneaded flour, you're never going to want to toss the dough.  Just press it with your fingers (avoiding the rim) and gently knuckle stretch it open.  I really wish there was a product that you could stretch and have it come back to a ball so you could repeat this a few hundred times, but, there isn't. Dough is cheap, and you've got plenty of flour, so I would just make a lot of dough balls and open them, one after the next. Practice going so thin you can see through it. Purposely make a tear, so you can practice repairing tears. Be aware of the thinness at the center of the skin- it takes some practice to get a uniform thickness from the center to the rim.

Those are, imo, the biggies- fermentation recognition, opening and launching. You're well on your way to 'getting' fermentation, and, with enough practice, opening and launching should be a breeze.  With your level of motivation, I have no doubt this will happen quickly  ;D

Very well done on the cottage cheese look. 


Great feedback/advice, thanks!  I found tonite that opening up and stretching the dough has just as big an impact on cooking time, etc as the other factors.  I felt the second one (pictured) I formed much better and am getting better at what to look for.  It's almost like I have to forget what I've been doing for the last 6 months and start all over again! 

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2010, 08:21:41 AM »
StrayBullet,

I think you made the right decision to use the dough ball when you did.  You said it looked pretty wet.  You are using a high hydration, for just starting out to make pizza.  A higher hydration dough will be harder to handle in my opinion, when opening the dough or being able to slide it off the peel into the oven.  How was your skin to open and then slide into the oven? 

On the first one, I was going more based on smell and bubbles on bottom of dough.  When I lifted it out of the bowl, it was "wet" on the bottom, so I figured the 3nd one had to be in the same shape.  Since I'd messed up stretching it out, made a little small due to both my poor technique and not being used to working with dough so "soft."    I'm now employing tamping down the dough from the center out with my fingers only, flipping over and repeating, pushing the air out to the rim.  Then pinching down a rim and stretching out the center using both hands creating a push/stretch motion while keep my hands off the formed rim.  Once large enough I stretch with knuckles from the the edges and use the weight of the dough to stretch itself as I rotate around, draping over my forearm as needed to hold shape.  I then drape onto my peel, dusted with semolina.

The first one was so bad, I didn't even want to post the pics...it was edible of course, just under-stretched and undercooked.  The second one was much better although I hitched in the middle of the launch, hence the fold that can be seen in the pic above.

What was your opinion on the taste of the crust?  You did a great job for just starting to make pizza.   :)

I am over 60 and still learning. With your determination you will learn.

It's hard to discern without them being side by side.  I know there's a difference but it's hard to quantify.  Different flour, technique, recipe, etc but I do like how the AT tastes and performs to the KASL but again, that could be due to the above factors.  Since I bought such a big bag of AT, I won't be trying out any other flours soon :D

Thanks for the compliment, I appreciate that!  I'm not totally new as I was making pies using KASL and a recipe I found along the way for the past 6 months.  But the recipe was WAY off, my technique across the board SUCKED, etc and since I've been here, I've learned so much and been able to apply it; it's awesome to see this stuff at work. 

I'm a pretty determined person and when I get things in my head, I blast ahead full steam.  I got into drag racing and taught myself the 1/4 mile and autocross, along with help from a lot of people.  I also got into poker and while I'm still a working stiff, I've been able to keep a separate bankroll to play out of for the past 4 years.  When I got back from Paris last year, I taught myself how to make French Macarons (and espresso), a tasty little Parisian treat....very demanding petit pastries!  I love to learn new stuff and am looking forward at getting better with y'alls help!  Thanks again!!!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 08:25:44 AM by StrayBullet »

Offline norma427

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2010, 08:41:38 AM »
StrayBullet,

I am not an expert on anything, but make many doughs for my market stand that I operate one day a week.  I use KASL with a preferment for the Lehmann dough.  My hydration is 61%.  This isnít a professional video, but one that I made to show how opening the dough went for the formula I use.  If you are interested in seeing how I open my dough you can view this video.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvOWNq0lZLg" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvOWNq0lZLg</a>


and another video with regular Lehmann dough

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT2YoDEcBaQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT2YoDEcBaQ</a>


Norma
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 09:01:59 AM by norma427 »
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Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2010, 04:18:11 PM »
Norma, those are great videos, very detailed and since I'm more of a visual learner they help a ton.  With the help you, Scott and others have provided I should be able to improve my technique tremendously!  I also noted by the way you launched that pie into the oven that I've been doing that wrong as well.  I've been doing more of a slide outer edge onto stone and slide peel out from under as it lands.  With what Scott suggested earlier and your video, that gives me something else to work on!  I may just do what Scott suggested and make a skin just to practice launching onto the counter.  I've been using Semolina on the peel, but I'll try flour and see how that differs.  Thanks again!

Offline norma427

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2010, 05:39:49 PM »
Norma, those are great videos, very detailed and since I'm more of a visual learner they help a ton.  With the help you, Scott and others have provided I should be able to improve my technique tremendously!  I also noted by the way you launched that pie into the oven that I've been doing that wrong as well.  I've been doing more of a slide outer edge onto stone and slide peel out from under as it lands.  With what Scott suggested earlier and your video, that gives me something else to work on!  I may just do what Scott suggested and make a skin just to practice launching onto the counter.  I've been using Semolina on the peel, but I'll try flour and see how that differs.  Thanks again!

StayBullet,

There are other videos under my name on YouTube.  If you just click on my videos you can see them.  I even think there is one of Steve (Ev) opening the dough.  I use rice flour to put on my wooden peel, but many members on here use other flours.  The rice flour does help me to launch the pies.  Sorry the videos aren't professional, but they were just taken for me to remember what I did in the past. 

All members on this forum are very helpful and I am sure in no time, you will know what to do. 

Keep up the good work,  :)

Norma
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Online scott123

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2010, 06:03:08 PM »
For a regular Lehman Ny, if my oven temp was 500 or so, am I looking at 5-6 minutes bake time, regardless of color?

If your oven temp was 500, with your stone, I would put the baking time at about 10 minutes. Your current temperature (675) appears to be just about right for your hydration, thickness factor and stone.   

With one more day of fermentation, the dough will have more CO2 bubbles, so you'll get a puffier crust.  A 5 minute bake will give you plenty of color (especially with the extra sugar from the additional fermentation) but not too much. 5 minutes is, imo, the 'sweet spot' for puffy chewy pizza with some rigidity/crispness.

I wouldn't mess with the iron pan quite yet. Is the stone on the bottom shelf and the pan on the top?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2010, 06:05:50 PM »
Norma I enjoyed your videos.  Great job. You show great skill in opening the skins with such a uniform thickness.  The dough condition/elasticity also looks fantastic (given they were frozen).  There's nothing like consistent practicing every week.  I sometimes wish I had a little pizza stand so I could consistently make more pizza.   :chef:

Offline norma427

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2010, 06:19:35 PM »
Norma I enjoyed your videos.  Great job. You show great skill in opening the skins with such a uniform thickness.  The dough condition/elasticity also looks fantastic (given they were frozen).  There's nothing like consistent practicing every week.  I sometimes wish I had a little pizza stand so I could consistently make more pizza.   :chef:


Jackie Tran,

Thanks for saying you enjoyed the videos.  The regular Lehmann dough and the preferment for the Lehmann dough are easy to open, being they are only 61% hydration.  These dough balls weren't frozen, but they are also easy to open. Yes, I do practice every week, but still have mishaps.  You would be a good one to have a little pizza stand.  I'm sure everyone would like your pizzas.  I was just trying to help StayBullet out to show him how my lower hydration dough opens.

Norma
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Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2010, 09:37:32 PM »
Norma, I'll definitely check out the other videos and thanks for the confidence!

If your oven temp was 500, with your stone, I would put the baking time at about 10 minutes. Your current temperature (675) appears to be just about right for your hydration, thickness factor and stone.   

With one more day of fermentation, the dough will have more CO2 bubbles, so you'll get a puffier crust.  A 5 minute bake will give you plenty of color (especially with the extra sugar from the additional fermentation) but not too much. 5 minutes is, imo, the 'sweet spot' for puffy chewy pizza with some rigidity/crispness.

I wouldn't mess with the iron pan quite yet. Is the stone on the bottom shelf and the pan on the top?

Makes me give a lot more thought to recipe variables, cooking tools and target times.  Yes, the stone is on the bottom the whole time and pan on the top.

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2010, 11:16:33 AM »
And here's the new ball(s) I made tonite...followed advice about kneading much closer this time.  I also adjusted the initial water temp to have a finished dough at 70 degrees and it worked out perfectly.  Everything else about the recipe I kept the same.  Oh, and I got some containers that will allow better feedback ;) :D

Here's pics of what the balls look like after cold fermenting for 38 hours.  I'm bringing one of these to use tonite at a "pizza party" then cook the other myself tomorrow nite after having a full 72 ferment, will be nice to see how this turns out on Sunday!

Online scott123

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Re: Second Attempt at Lehman Dough
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2010, 04:46:49 AM »
Yup, one more day.  It'll be good today, but tomorrow, it should be better.


 

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