Author Topic: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.  (Read 2165 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mooncrickett

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 26
Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« on: July 22, 2010, 11:37:16 AM »
Greetings, I have been trying to get my dough right now for a while and to no avail. I have made roughly 10 pies now and it has been heartbreaking for me. I keep hitting the same wall. When I use my sourdo yeast (which smells awesome and has a great flavor) I can only accomplish a warm 24hr rise. It will not rise in the fridge. If I put the dough in the fridge, after 3 days it will need 24 hrs on the counter before rising........When I use active dry yeast (Sam's club) it rises great in the fridge but does not have the same flavor as the sourdo......here is the most frustrating part, in nearly every attempt my dough is too elastic and will not open, it just springs back. I have tried mixing all ingredients all at once with no rest, quick mixing time, letting the dough rest(Autolyse), hand kneading, I cant seem to get it right......I am using High Gluten flour from Sam's club with a 63% hydration..kitchen aid mixer( dough rises on the paddle or hook very quickly).....btw when mixing in the mixer it appears that the flour is too much......I wont give up however am feeling whipped....I have posted a few times on here and the help has been super.....I think its the mixing thats beating me.....I have used the recipe tool on here to try and tweak my ingredients ie sugar, salt and oil but I think its still off........any help or ideas for recipe's or mixing techniques for a NY style 16" would be great....here is my go to recipe from Pete.......Thanks

Total Formula:
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (1.75%):
Total (163.75%):

Preferment:
King Arthur Bread Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
King Arthur Bread Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:
 
317.99 g  |  11.22 oz | 0.7 lbs
197.15 g  |  6.95 oz | 0.43 lbs
5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
520.7 g | 18.37 oz | 1.15 lbs | TF = 0.09135
 
 
27.98 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs
35.61 g | 1.26 oz | 0.08 lbs
63.6 g | 2.24 oz | 0.14 lbs

 
290 g | 10.23 oz | 0.64 lbs
161.54 g | 5.7 oz | 0.36 lbs
5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
63.6 g | 2.24 oz | 0.14 lbs
520.7 g | 18.37 oz | 1.15 lbs  | TF = 0.09135
The perfect lover is one who turns into a pizza at 12:00 p.m


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6968
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2010, 11:50:59 AM »
In order for members to help we need to know exactly what you did so we can troubleshoot.  What is your exact mixing regimen including mix and rest times. Herein lays your problem with not being able to open the dough.

We also need to know the overall ferment times including the proofing times and temps. 
Are you also using any yeast in the preferment?
Also a few pics of your pies would help others see what is going on.

Be patient grasshopper. After well over 200 pies, I'm still working at it.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 11:55:45 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline sear

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 366
  • Age: 30
  • Location: ny
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2010, 12:20:10 PM »
Are you weighing flour and water with a scale ?

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6680
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2010, 12:32:55 PM »
Mooncrickett, have you tried:

67% water
2 minutes total mix/knead time (dough balls should have the consistency of cottage cheese)
No autolyse
No sourdough (ADY only)
Immediate balling of the dough after mixing
No punch downs, no stretches or folds
Using enough yeast for the dough to double (no more, no less) in the fridge after 3 days.
1.5 hour warm-up and then form

Elasticity comes from kneading and lack of water.  If you add enough water and scale back the kneading enough, make the balls immediately and don't mess with the dough until it's time to open, you will have no problems with elasticity.

Offline mooncrickett

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 26
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2010, 12:38:18 PM »
In order for members to help we need to know exactly what you did so we can troubleshoot.  What is your exact mixing regimen including mix and rest times. Herein lays your problem with not being able to open the dough.

We also need to know the overall ferment times including the proofing times and temps. 
Are you also using any yeast in the preferment?
Also a few pics of your pies would help others see what is going on.

Be patient grasshopper. After well over 200 pies, I'm still working at it.
ok,
mixing- first I tried the Jeff V, mixing technique- dough was way too elastic
then I was advised to pour water in bowl add salt(and sugar if using) to dissolve, mixer on lowest setting add four, yeast and oil (if using), mix for 1 min or so then form balls, into fridge for 3 day rise. no rest times with this- on one attempt dough seemed to form but the rest since had been too elastic

ferment-(ADY) fridge 3 days
sourdo active yeast - the dough wont rise in the fridge, so 24hrs on counter

I do weigh all ingredients with a scale

you don't want to see pics, I am still trying to perfect my skin...and sliding it on the stones, my pies look like something out of a horror flick
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 12:44:06 PM by mooncrickett »
The perfect lover is one who turns into a pizza at 12:00 p.m

Offline mooncrickett

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 26
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2010, 12:39:39 PM »
Mooncrickett, have you tried:

67% water
2 minutes total mix/knead time (dough balls should have the consistency of cottage cheese)
No autolyse
No sourdough (ADY only)
Immediate balling of the dough after mixing
No punch downs, no stretches or folds
Using enough yeast for the dough to double (no more, no less) in the fridge after 3 days.
1.5 hour warm-up and then form

Elasticity comes from kneading and lack of water.  If you add enough water and scale back the kneading enough, make the balls immediately and don't mess with the dough until it's time to open, you will have no problems with elasticity.
thank you sir iam printing this reply for next my use, however i use an electric stove which only heats to about 500- 550
The perfect lover is one who turns into a pizza at 12:00 p.m

Offline sear

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 366
  • Age: 30
  • Location: ny
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2010, 01:04:43 PM »
thank you sir iam printing this reply for next my use, however i use an electric stove which only heats to about 500- 550

that oven temp is fine.
i have been playing around with my SD starter & refrigerating dough too.
i usually do a 4-6 hr room temp rise after a short mixing.15% SD Starter.  then divide, ball up and refrigerate.
then i use the dough usually within 2-5 days with good results.

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6968
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2010, 03:03:59 PM »
MC, we have all had our share of jacked up pies, no worries there.

I asked about specific amounts of ADY or Starter vs ferment times so we can know exactly what happened.  If you remember then post them up.  Also post up the total amount of flour used.  The yeast amount used divided by the flour amount gives the % of yeast.  This is what I need to know. 

I have been down this road before.  My suspicion is that you used a very small amount of ADY (0.1-0.2%) or starter (1-2% of the flour weight), cool or cold water, no bulk rise, cold refrigeration (40F) or so and got no rise but only after 24 hours room temp did you get some rise. 

Dough doesn't necessarily have to rise in the fridge but it should a bit.   You can used Scott's outline and you should be fine.  If you want to retry your current recipe, then including a bulk rise on the counter at room temps for at least 1 hour (2 maybe better) should fix your problem.   This allows the yeast to get kick started.  Also use room temperature water and not cold water. 

In your situation, you likely used cool or cold water shocking the small amount of yeast that you have.  Then without a bulk rise and into the fridge, the yeast never has a chance to take off.  The only time you would do this is if you were going for a 10-14 day cold ferment or something that long. 

I would double up your yeast amount, use room temp water, bulk rise 1-2 hours, then cold ferment for 2-3 days in a clear container.  You should see small bubbles develop on the bottom over the course of 2-3 days.  The dough won't look like it's risen much but it will rise some (~20%).  Room temp proof on the counter for 2-3 hours or until dough doubles and then use.  That should work. 

good luck and do post some pics up.  We won't be critical I promise. 

JT

Offline kross

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2010, 04:16:12 PM »
As for the elasticity problem, I think 62% is too low for KABF.  64-65% would be better.  This will make the dough softer and easier to stretch, and should give better oven spring, too.  The downside is it will be stickier, and will require a bit more bench flour, and you'll need to work quickly when putting on the toppings, before the dough starts to stick to the peel.  Newcomers will make the mistake of putting lots of flour on the peel, to keep the dough from sticking, but then you end up with too much raw flour on the bottom of the pizza, which doesn't taste good.  You need to use just enough, but not too much, and work quickly.  This takes practice.

Hope this helps!
-- Kevin

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6680
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2010, 07:23:18 PM »
thank you sir iam printing this reply for next my use, however i use an electric stove which only heats to about 500- 550

What kind of stone are you working with? (brand, composition, dimensions).


Offline c0mpl3x

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1064
  • Age: 27
  • Location: north of pittsburgh PA
  • crumb bubbles!
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2010, 08:09:59 PM »
you don't site using yeast.  thats your problem for no-rise
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2228
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2010, 08:12:31 PM »
you don't site using yeast.  thats your problem for no-rise

He's using a preferment.

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2228
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2010, 08:22:51 PM »
Greetings, I have been trying to get my dough right now for a while and to no avail. I have made roughly 10 pies now and it has been heartbreaking for me. I keep hitting the same wall. When I use my sourdo yeast (which smells awesome and has a great flavor) I can only accomplish a warm 24hr rise. It will not rise in the fridge. If I put the dough in the fridge, after 3 days it will need 24 hrs on the counter before rising........When I use active dry yeast (Sam's club) it rises great in the fridge but does not have the same flavor as the sourdo......here is the most frustrating part, in nearly every attempt my dough is too elastic and will not open, it just springs back. I have tried mixing all ingredients all at once with no rest, quick mixing time, letting the dough rest(Autolyse), hand kneading, I cant seem to get it right......I am using High Gluten flour from Sam's club with a 63% hydration..kitchen aid mixer( dough rises on the paddle or hook very quickly).....btw when mixing in the mixer it appears that the flour is too much......I wont give up however am feeling whipped....I have posted a few times on here and the help has been super.....I think its the mixing thats beating me.....I have used the recipe tool on here to try and tweak my ingredients ie sugar, salt and oil but I think its still off........any help or ideas for recipe's or mixing techniques for a NY style 16" would be great....here is my go to recipe from Pete.......Thanks

Total Formula:
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (1.75%):
Total (163.75%):

Preferment:
King Arthur Bread Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
King Arthur Bread Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:
 
317.99 g  |  11.22 oz | 0.7 lbs
197.15 g  |  6.95 oz | 0.43 lbs
5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
520.7 g | 18.37 oz | 1.15 lbs | TF = 0.09135
 
 
27.98 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs
35.61 g | 1.26 oz | 0.08 lbs
63.6 g | 2.24 oz | 0.14 lbs

 
290 g | 10.23 oz | 0.64 lbs
161.54 g | 5.7 oz | 0.36 lbs
5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
63.6 g | 2.24 oz | 0.14 lbs
520.7 g | 18.37 oz | 1.15 lbs  | TF = 0.09135

When using a starter you must start with a fully active starter, bulk ferment your dough, divided & ball.  Then & only then you can place the dough in the fridge.  By placing the dough into the fridge the metabolism of the organisms in the starter slow down & eventually reach dormancy.  When you remove the dough balls from the fridge allow them to warm to room temperature 5-6 prior to use.

Matt


Offline c0mpl3x

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1064
  • Age: 27
  • Location: north of pittsburgh PA
  • crumb bubbles!
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2010, 09:55:41 PM »
He's using a preferment.

i had to re-read.  i see that now below his recipe
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6968
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2010, 10:34:11 PM »
He's using a preferment.

Yes but his preferment is just flour and water.  I thought preferments usually have a bit of commercial yeast or starter. Unless he's using starter, which is made with flour and water and he's calling it preferment. I'm confused.???

Offline dmcavanagh

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2010, 11:38:54 PM »
Preferment=starter. And it is just flour and water which contains wild yeasts which were present in the flour at the time the starter was developed. Adding any commercial yeast to a starter is a no-no in the true sense of sourdough. The preferment needs to be fed and active before it is used to bake with. A well fed, active starter should give your dough all the rise it needs. Refridgerating the dough will slow the fermentation so the doughs will not show any great expansion, but there is still activity taking place. I do cold ferment sourdoughs with KASL and have no problem at all with elastic doughs. My doughs spread like silk after a 3-5 day cold ferment. Just give the dough time to come to room temp before you attempt to make your pies. And, I do like to let my doughs rest at room temp for 1 hour after mixing and before storing in the refridgerator.

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2228
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2010, 06:37:40 AM »
Yes but his preferment is just flour and water.  I thought preferments usually have a bit of commercial yeast or starter. Unless he's using starter, which is made with flour and water and he's calling it preferment. I'm confused.???


Chau,
The following summary on preferments should help you out:

Pate Fermentee (Old dough method):
flour, salt, yeast, & water. 

Poolish (wet sponge):
flour, yeast & water.

Biga (the italian version of a firm preferment):
flour, yeast, & water

Sourdough Starter:
Flour & water

Hope this helps.

Matthew







Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6968
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2010, 06:58:04 AM »
Thx Matt.  ;) had I looked at the amounts on the "preferment" MC is using it would have been obvious that it is a starter.  That's what I get for reading too quickly on the iPhone and missing the fine print. So literally, anyone of those is technically a preferment? A biga is just a stiffer preferment than a starter (preferment)? If so then, the term "preferment" is just a general all encompassing term?

JT
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 07:02:30 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline sear

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 366
  • Age: 30
  • Location: ny
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2010, 10:51:57 AM »
If so then, the term "preferment" is just a general all encompassing term?


thats what i assumed as they are all fermenting before added to final dough  :)

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2228
Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2010, 11:21:50 AM »
So literally, anyone of those is technically a preferment? A biga is just a stiffer preferment than a starter (preferment)? If so then, the term "preferment" is just a general all encompassing term?

JT

Yes, they are all preferments.  A biga is a preferment/starter.  Preferments can either be a poolish (equal parts water & flower), a sponge (relatively loose textured), biga (stiff or loose textured), or pate fermentee/old dough(can be prepared as a separate mixture or taken from a batch of pre mixed dough for later use in another dough.  To further complicate things there is also a "chef" which by definition is a piece of ripe sourdough culture kept aside before final dough mixing in order to perpetuate the culture.

Matt

« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 11:23:56 AM by Matthew »


 

pizzapan