Author Topic: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.  (Read 2160 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2010, 11:37:03 AM »
Thank you Matt.  I always learn something new everyday here.   ;D


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2010, 01:37:17 PM »
Chau,

I can commiserate with you on the nomenclature issue. Traditionally, a "preferment" was a mixture of flour, water and yeast (and sometimes a few other things) that was based on using commercial yeast and in a quantity where the preferment would yield sufficient organic acid byproducts that would both strengthen the dough (a problem that mooncrickett appears to be experiencing) and contribute to the taste, aroma and flavor of the finished crust. However, if you research the literature, and also on this forum, you will find references to "natural starters", "natural preferments", "natural bigas", "natural poolish", an old dough based on natural yeast, etc. These are all based on using natural, or wild, yeast. There is also a combination that can contain both a natural starter/preferment and commercial yeast. I believe that Professor Calvel referred to such a preferment as a "hybrid". Professor Calvel intended that such preferments be used to make bread during the cool months of the year, to give the dough more volume. As an acolyte of Jeff Varasano, you may recall that he used what was, in effect, a hybrid preferment, in his case 9% preferment and 0.25% IDY (optional). When IDY is used, it would have the same effect as Professor Calvel mentioned except that I believe Jeff referred to getting more "poof" out of the dough.

On a related matter, when I was designing the preferment dough calculating tool with Boy Hits Car, I had a hard time trying to find a good name for the tool. The tool (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html) was specifically designed for use with natural starters and preferments. There were three things I wanted to cover with the tool: the use of a natural preferment in quantities that would produce the same effects as discussed above, hybrid preferments, and the use of a small amount of starter (natural) whose sole purpose, in essence, was to leaven the dough, and not materially strengthen the dough or produce a lot of acids and related byproducts. This last example was what pizzanapoletana (Marco) called "Crisceto" or sometimes by the spelling "Criscito". The amount of the Crisceto/Criscito was small, only up to 5% of the formula water. I believe Marco would call such a composition a "starter" rather than a "preferment", which would have the more technical features as mentioned above. I eventually just threw my hands up in the air and decided to call the preferment dough calculating tool just that. To minimize confusion, I mentioned in the post that described the tool when it was introduced, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4996.msg42266.html#msg42266, that the term preferment was intended to cover all of the abovementioned forms.

These days, I personally try to use the descriptor "natural" or "naturally leavened" when speaking of starters or preferments that are based on natural, or wild, yeast. And I would use the term "hybrid" for a combination of a natural starter/preferment with added commercial yeast. When I use the term "preferment" without a descriptor, I almost always mean a commercial-yeast preferment, examples of which Matt and other members mentioned earlier in this thread.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2010, 01:47:49 PM »
Thank you for the background info Peter.

Chau

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2010, 03:18:18 PM »
mooncrickett,

In order to see the dough formulation you used with all the numbers properly lined up, and to recall the particulars of the dough formulation, I went back to the dough formulation as set forth in Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10578.msg93963.html#msg93963. From that post, I can see that you are using a natural preferment at a rate of 20% of the total formula flour. At that rate, it is probable that you have been getting high levels of organic acids that may be tightening up the protein and creating a gluten structure that is elastic rather than extensible. In Reply 23 in the same thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10578.msg95262.html#msg95262, I suggested a couple of things that might have addressed that problem. Did you ever try either of those proposed solutions?

I can sympathize with your plight trying to make a cold fermented dough using a natural preferment. Some time ago, I attempted to do something similar when I made a naturally leavened Papa John's clone dough. As you will see from Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60892.html#msg60892, I made and cold fermented a dough that was based on an Ischia preferment. My Ischia starter was not particularly virile at the time so I used it at a rate of 25% of the total formula flour. Normally, I would use about 15-20%. The dough fermented in the refrigerator for about 4 1/2 days. As you experienced, when I wanted to use the dough, I saw that it had risen very little. In my case, I needed another 20 hours or so at room temperature for the dough to rise to the desired volume. When I ended up using the dough (after about another 4 1/2 hours), I easily formed the dough into a skin without any elasticity problems. However, in my case, I was using over 7% oil, which no doubt helped the extensibility of the dough.

While a naturally leavened dough is cold fermenting, everything gets slowed down. However, the enzymes and bacteria are still on the job and you can end up with a dough with decent levels of organic acids and related byproducts of fermentation. However, the yeast, whether natural or commercial, can remain lethargic. Consequently, the dough may require a long period at room temperature, or in a temperature-controlled environment, to get the desired volume expansion of the dough after removing the dough from the refrigerator. That is just the nature of naturally leavened cold fermented doughs, especially if little or no fermentation takes place before refrigerating the dough or the starter culture is not quite ready.

I know from your other thread on this subject that you have read Jeff Varasano's material at his website (or elsewhere) and that he made naturally leavened cold fermented doughs that went into the refrigerator for about 1-6 days. However, I don't know whether he was using IDY in addition to the natural preferment (9%). I do recall that his dough was subjected to about 55-60 minutes of preparation time (with no autolyse) during which the dough was given time to ferment before being refrigerated. That no doubt helped jump start the fermentation process. However, I don't know if that would have been enough to allow the dough to be used shortly after removing it from the refrigerator. In your case, you could supplement the natural preferment with commercial yeast, but in a hybrid situation the natural yeast and the commercial yeast compete for nutrients. In such a case, the commercial yeast is likely to win the battle, resulting in reduced organic acid production and less crust flavor and aroma. But a natural side effect--and a possibly beneficial side effect in your case--is that the reduced acid levels may have less tightening effect on the gluten structure, resulting in reduced elasticity. Of course, you could use only commercial yeast, as was earlier proposed by scott123, I believe, but then you would be foregoing the benefits of using the natural preferment.

You can read a bit further on some of the above matters at Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13410/topicseen.html#msg13410.

Another possibility for you to consider is to use a regimen as suggested by Matthew in an earlier post in this thread. In my opinion, that might produce a more "balanced" fermentation protocol (biochemically speaking). You could also increase the total formula hydration as was suggested by scott123, and you could add some oil, which is common for a NY street style pizza. Usually, when oil is used, it is used at a rate of up to 3% of the total formula flour. If you try any of these methods and your dough still ends up with excessive elasticity, then the next logical step in my opinion would be to use less natural preferment or alter its composition, as I noted above. As you consider the possibilities, you might also want to read the following articles on preferments by Didier Rosada, at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm. The Rosada writings are directed to commercial-yeast preferments although there are some references to starters/levain.

Please keep us posted on your progress.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 10:39:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline mooncrickett

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Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2010, 10:21:01 PM »
What kind of stone are you working with? (brand, composition, dimensions).
am using metropolitan ceramic quarry tiles, doubled up two high
The perfect lover is one who turns into a pizza at 12:00 p.m

Offline mooncrickett

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Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2010, 10:23:12 PM »
As for the elasticity problem, I think 62% is too low for KABF.  64-65% would be better.  This will make the dough softer and easier to stretch, and should give better oven spring, too.  The downside is it will be stickier, and will require a bit more bench flour, and you'll need to work quickly when putting on the toppings, before the dough starts to stick to the peel.  Newcomers will make the mistake of putting lots of flour on the peel, to keep the dough from sticking, but then you end up with too much raw flour on the bottom of the pizza, which doesn't taste good.  You need to use just enough, but not too much, and work quickly.  This takes practice.

Hope this helps!
-- Kevin
Thanks for your advise but have switched from KABF to Sam's club high gluten flour, if that makes a difference with hydration percents....
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 10:27:24 PM by mooncrickett »
The perfect lover is one who turns into a pizza at 12:00 p.m

Offline mooncrickett

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Re: Can't seem to get it my NY style right.
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2010, 10:31:18 PM »
MC, we have all had our share of jacked up pies, no worries there.

I asked about specific amounts of ADY or Starter vs ferment times so we can know exactly what happened.  If you remember then post them up.  Also post up the total amount of flour used.  The yeast amount used divided by the flour amount gives the % of yeast.  This is what I need to know. 

I have been down this road before.  My suspicion is that you used a very small amount of ADY (0.1-0.2%) or starter (1-2% of the flour weight), cool or cold water, no bulk rise, cold refrigeration (40F) or so and got no rise but only after 24 hours room temp did you get some rise. 

Dough doesn't necessarily have to rise in the fridge but it should a bit.   You can used Scott's outline and you should be fine.  If you want to retry your current recipe, then including a bulk rise on the counter at room temps for at least 1 hour (2 maybe better) should fix your problem.   This allows the yeast to get kick started.  Also use room temperature water and not cold water. 

In your situation, you likely used cool or cold water shocking the small amount of yeast that you have.  Then without a bulk rise and into the fridge, the yeast never has a chance to take off.  The only time you would do this is if you were going for a 10-14 day cold ferment or something that long. 

I would double up your yeast amount, use room temp water, bulk rise 1-2 hours, then cold ferment for 2-3 days in a clear container.  You should see small bubbles develop on the bottom over the course of 2-3 days.  The dough won't look like it's risen much but it will rise some (~20%).  Room temp proof on the counter for 2-3 hours or until dough doubles and then use.  That should work. 

good luck and do post some pics up.  We won't be critical I promise. 

JT
Thanks your advise is awesome, however I use room temp water and my starter is about 20% of my total recipe but i was not doing a bulk rise. that may be the problem with the dough not rising in the fridge...its the elastic dough problem thats killing me...
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