Author Topic: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?  (Read 17581 times)

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Offline norma427

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Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« on: July 28, 2010, 07:44:23 PM »


I am wondering if there could be a possible modification to the Lehmann dough using a sour dough approach? 

Since pizza making seems to be part art, science, chemistry, physics, and biology and can include countless variations in making a pizza dough and then making it into a pizza crust, I was wondering if this approach might work. I am always looking for new ways to experiment and find a better flavor in the crust.  This was posted on PMQTT. 

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=2119&sid=0d2ff1312518df75d77262531129df64#p2119

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2010, 09:25:52 PM »
Norma,

Is there a particular dough batch weight you would like to experiment with or, alternatively, is there a particular number of pizzas of a given size and thickness factor that you would like to test out?

I believe the Lehmann dough formulation that you are now using at market is the one given at Reply 273 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181. The corresponding dough formulation for a single 16" pizza is given at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226. Do you want the new sour dough version of the Lehmann dough formulation to track the one you are now using, in terms of dough batch weight, baker's percents, thickness factor, etc.? The reason I pose this question is that the sour dough mix given at the PMQTT thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=2119&sid=0d2ff1312518df75d77262531129df64#p2119 appears to represent a fairly small percent of the total formula flour. For example, if you want to make enough dough for a couple of 16" pizzas along the lines that you are now making, you may find that you will be using only a few tablespoons of whole milk in the sour dough mix. That isn't readily apparent when you see five cups of whole milk at the abovereferenced PMQTT post. That five cups (Australian cups, BTW) is with respect to 30 kg of flour.

The formulation of the sour dough mix can be represented as follows:

Flour (100%):
Sugar (60%):
Milk (fresh) (215.168%):
Total (375.168%):
567 g  |  20 oz | 1.25 lbs
340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | 28.44 tbsp | 1.78 cups
1220 g | 43.03 oz | 2.69 lbs | 81.33 tbsp | 5.08 cups
2127.2 g | 75.03 oz | 4.69 lbs

For the record, the nutrition data for whole milk is given at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/69/2. That data indicates that the water content of whole milk is 88.12%. That water content has to be subtracted from the normal hydration value of the Lehmann dough formulation. The hydration value you have been using is 61%.

FYI, an Australian cup is 250 ml. A U.S. cup is smaller, at 236.59 ml. That means the Australian cup information has to be converted to U.S. cup information. The conversion ratio is 1.0566882. I used that conversion in coming up with the sour dough mix formulation given above. In the above sour dough mix, the milk represents 57.35238% of the total weight of the sour dough mix; the sugar represents 15.99285% of the total weight of the sour dough mix; and the flour represents 26.65475% of the total weight of the sour mix.

Peter

« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 10:08:40 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2010, 10:25:16 PM »
Peter,

I would like to test this sour dough modification for the Lehmann dough, with using five dough balls, as I have done in the past.  I would be mixing the dough at market in my commercial mixer to first test this out.  Maybe if this works out, then I would test mixing a sour dough modification for the Lehmann dough at home.  I would be making the sour dough modification for the Lehmann dough in my home oven to test it out first.  Maybe I would freeze some of the dough balls and then also test them at market. 

I would like to just start out with a regular Lehmann dough at 61% hydration and a thickness factor a little higher than I have been using.  I think I now like a higher thickness factor.  How would I go about figuring out how much sour dough would be needed to start this test or donít you think it would work?  Would this dough formula take a lot of math to figure out?

For me doing the conversions from Australian to US measurements would be hard, and then incorporating the sour dough into the final dough, is also something I am not sure of.

Thanks for all your information.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2010, 10:47:00 PM »
Norma,

I won't know all of the issues for sure until I put pencil to paper but at the moment I don't foresee any problems in coming up with a dough formulation for you to play around with. For that purpose, I would plan on making enough dough for five 16" pizzas, using a thickness factor of 0.10, if that value is acceptable to you. I have already figured out the percents for the sour dough mix, so that part of the effort is done. What remains to be determined is the amount of sour dough mix to use. I estimate that the sour dough mix given at PMQTT is around 7% of the total formula flour (30 kg). I think I would go with around 10% to start and adjust from there based on your results.

Let me know if the above sounds like a plan.

Peter


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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2010, 11:05:01 PM »
Peter,

That sounds good that you could help me come up with a dough formulation for me to play around with.  I would like to see if this sour dough will give better flavor to the Lehmann dough crust. 

That is also good you already figured out the percents for the sour dough mix.  I agree that it would be a good idea to start with 10% for the sour dough mix.  The above plan sounds good to me.

Thanks for your help,

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2010, 01:15:48 PM »
Norma,

Because of the way that wadave (Dave) makes his dough (in two additive steps) and the way that the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html is designed to operate, it took me a lot more work and a lot more time to come up with a dough formulation for you to try. Because of this, and to record the steps I took, I have laid out the sequence of calculations and operations.

First, I started with the current Lehmann dough formulation that you have been using. It is the one that is labeled "Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation" at Reply 273 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181. The same formulation from a baker's percent standpoint appears at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226. Since you indicated that you wanted to make five dough balls for five 16" pizzas and that you wanted to use a larger thickness factor, which we chose to be 0.10, using the expanded dough calculating tool I came up with the following starting dough formulation:

KASL Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
Single Ball:
1736.25 g  |  61.24 oz | 3.83 lbs
1059.11 g  |  37.36 oz | 2.33 lbs
6.94 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.31 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
30.38 g | 1.07 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.44 tsp | 1.81 tbsp
17.36 g | 0.61 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.86 tsp | 1.29 tbsp
2850.05 g | 100.53 oz | 6.28 lbs | TF = 0.1
570.01 g | 20.11 oz | 1.26 lbs
Note: Dough is for five 16" pizzas; thickness factor = 0.10; no bowl residue compensation

Second, since we decided to use a sour dough mix equal to 10% of the total formula flour in the above dough formulation, the actual amount comes to 10% of 61.24 ounces, or 6.124 ounces.

Third, using the breakdown data (baker's percents, etc.) I posted earlier for the wadave sour dough mix, the "formulation" for that mix based on using the expanded dough calculating tool, and with a little razzle and dazzle with that tool, comes to:

KASL Flour (100%):
Sugar (60%):
Whole Milk (fresh) (215.168%):
Total (375.168%):
46.28 g  |  1.63 oz | 0.1 lbs
27.77 g | 0.98 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.96 tsp | 2.32 tbsp
99.57 g | 3.51 oz | 0.22 lbs | 6.64 tbsp | 0.41 cups
173.62 g | 6.12 oz | 0.38 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Fourth, I merged the values of the ingredients in the basic Lehmann dough formulation and the sour dough mix formulation, including adding the flour in the sour dough mix formulation (1.63 ounces) and subtracting out the water content in the whole milk (88.12%, or 3.0950032 ounces). Ordinarlly, that would have been the end of the exercise. However, because of the way that Dave makes his dough and the way that the expanded dough calculating tool is constructed to work, I found it necessary to tweak the hydration value, while at the same time keeping the original baker's percents for the salt, IDY and oil (otherwise the percentages would have gone down when adding the sour dough mix). I also wanted to get the final hydration value as close to 61% as possible. When I was done, I ended up with the following total dough formulation:

KASL Flour (100%):
Water (55.1%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (1.55776%):
Whole Milk (fresh) (5.58633%):
Total (165.39409%):
1774.92 g  |  62.61 oz | 3.91 lbs
977.98 g  |  34.5 oz | 2.16 lbs
7.1 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.36 tsp | 0.79 tbsp
31.06 g | 1.1 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.57 tsp | 1.86 tbsp
17.75 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.94 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
27.65 g | 0.98 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.94 tsp | 2.31 tbsp
99.15 g | 3.5 oz | 0.22 lbs | 6.61 tbsp | 0.41 cups
2935.61 g | 103.55 oz | 6.47 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

In the above formulation, when the water content of the whole milk is compensated for, the effective total hydration is a bit over 60%. However, the milk fat will inch up the effective hydration a tiny bit. The final percent of the sour dough mix comes to about 9.8% of the total formula flour, or a bit less than the original 10% number.

Fifth, in order for you to actually prepare the dough, I backed out the sour dough mix from the above dough formulation and came up with the following numbers for you to use to make the basic dough:

KASL Flour (100%):
Water (56.5792%):
IDY (0.39357%):
Salt (1.75467%):
Olive Oil (1.00032%):
Total (159.72776%):
1728.75 g  |  60.98 oz | 3.81 lbs
978.11 g  |  34.5 oz | 2.16 lbs
6.8 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.26 tsp | 0.75 tbsp
30.33 g | 1.07 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.43 tsp | 1.81 tbsp
17.29 g | 0.61 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.84 tsp | 1.28 tbsp
2761.29 g | 97.4 oz | 6.09 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

For the sour dough mix, you should use the "formulation" I gave above for that mix.

You will also note that I did not use a bowl residue compensation. Again, that was because of the additive approach that Dave uses. However, if you divide the total dough batch weight by the weight of a single dough ball based on a 16" pizza size and a thickness factor of 0.10, which is 20.11 ounces, you will find that you get a bit over 5 dough balls. If you assume a bowl residue loss of about 1.5%, you should come very close to five 20.11 ounce dough balls.

In terms of the timing of the preparation of the sour dough mix and the basic dough, you should be guided by Dave's instructions given at his PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=2119&sid=f9d9c276866ada91f14b4aacfb7bea6f#p2119. However, in your case, with about 0.40% IDY, I believe that you should be able to get from one to three days of cold fermentation once the sour dough mix has been added to the basic dough. Of course, the longer the fermentation, the more crust flavors you should get, which is what you have been after.

There were a lot of calculations to come up with the above formulations so you should feel free to adjust the final hydration in the event I made any errors that affected the hydration numbers.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 11:18:20 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2010, 02:06:17 PM »
Peter,

Yes, I did want to try this approach to see if there can be better flavors in the crust, but never thought it would take all these calculations.  Have you ever done a five part dough calculation before?  I can understand how long this dough formula must have taken you to do all the calculations.  I appreciate you took on this challenge and figured all this out.  Hopefully this will give the crust a better flavor.

What would be your advise to make the sour dough mix?.  Should I follow wadaveís instructions at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=2119&sid=f9d9c276866ada91f14b4aacfb7bea6f#p2119  using about a 24 hour room temperature fermentation, or should I mix the sour dough mix and try a proofing box?

I would like to try making the sour dough today, since you have set-forth the formula and then do the final mix tomorrow at market.  I am just wondering which approach would be the best to use. 

Now, my printer is out of ink, so hopefully it will have enough ink left to print out the sour dough mix.

I can see this formula took a lot of razzle and dazzle.

Thanks for helping me and if this formula works out, maybe other members or guests can get better flavors in the crust for the Lehmann dough.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2010, 02:43:56 PM »
Norma,

It took me over four hours to do all the calculations so I hope that you either love the formulation as is and would never want to ever, ever change it again or you hate it so much as to never want to set foot near it again  :-D.

What complicated matters is your desire to keep the hydration at around 61%. I wanted that also since otherwise you could end up with a hydration like Dave's. Dave didn't post all of the ingredients for his dough at the PMQTT, but based on what he did say I estimate that he ends up with a hydration of around 53%. That might works with a sheeter/roller to form the dough skins but it wouldn't work for your NY style. As I mentioned, I also wanted to keep the salt, IDY and oil at the values you have been using. It was the shoehorning of a reduced version of Dave's sour dough mix into the basic Lehmann dough formulation that you have been using that took so much work and time.

With respect to the preparation of the sour dough mix, I suspect that you can just let it sit at room temperature for as many hours as it takes for the mix to expand from its initial liquid state to a foamy mix. Dave talked about the pressure building up in the jars. How long it takes to achieve that condition will depend on your ambient room temperature. You could also use your proofing box but you may have to play around with the temperature to achieve the desired condition. Dave talks about a 24-hour room temperature rise but it sounds like he has one or more places to keep his mix depending on the time of year. You might want to keep notes of what you do for future reference.

Peter

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2010, 03:34:28 PM »
Norma,

If you are interested, you can see wadave's pizzas at http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=150088&id=308250367901. You can see his shop at http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=152007&id=308250367901. His menu can be seen at http://www.realpizzas.com/.

For photos of the man himself, see http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3434538&id=308250367901 and then click on Previous a couple of times.

Peter

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2010, 03:53:09 PM »
Peter,

If it took you four hours to do the calculations, I never would have gotten them done.  I also hope this sour dough mix does contribute to the flavors of a Lehmann dough crust.  I wonít ever ask you to change the formulation in any way.  I can see that keeping the hydration at 61% was a problem.  I can also understand based on your estimate of wadaveís formula, (from what ingredients he gave) that this wouldnít work out for a Lehmann dough if his hydration is that low. 

Doing that shoehorning of the reduced version of Daveís sour dough mix into the basic Lehmann dough formulation is unthinkable to me. I just hope the shoe fits when this is tried.

Thanks for your thoughts on how to go about proofing the sour dough mix.  I will just mix the sour dough mix, let it sit at room temperature and see what happens until tomorrow.  If it doesnít look like a foamy mix until then, I will decide if I want to use my proofing box or the Hatco Unit until the sour dough mixture looks foamy enough in my opinion.  I will keep notes on what I do, so the next time I make this attempt, I will know better what to do. 

Thanks for posting the links to wadaveís pizzas.  His pizzas do look a lot different than a Lehmann dough pizza. His shop looks great and it sounds like he uses the freshest and best ingredients for his pizzas.  It was also good to see a picture of Dave.  He looks like a really friendly man.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2010, 04:06:44 PM »
Norma,

I suspect that there is a much easier way to come up with a Lehmann dough formulation that is based on using a sour dough mix, especially if the formulations I gave you work well enough to consider them further. I was trying to be super precise for the first try so that future modifications can be accomplished easier and without having to repeat everything I did. I think the major changes would be to keep the hydation in line. Even there, you are skilled enough to be able to make hydration adjustments to get the final dough condition you want.

I'll be interested to see how the sour dough method works out for you.

Peter

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2010, 04:07:23 PM »
thought i would throw a wrench in the works  >:D... tho this may not relate to what you want to do

on pizzazz website
"Our dough is made in store from scratch with our unique sour dough additive, oil and eggs,"

Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2010, 04:17:49 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for being super precise is doing this formulation. If this works out, then you can decide what to do in terms of further formulations.

I will note if I have to make any changes in the amount of water added to the final dough mix.  I know about what 61% hydration should feel like.

I also interested to see how this sour dough modification of the Lehmann dough works out.

Norma

thought i would throw a wrench in the works  >:D... tho this may not relate to what you want to do

on pizzazz website
"Our dough is made in store from scratch with our unique sour dough additive, oil and eggs,"

sear,

LOL..that indeed is a wrench.   :-D  Will report back what happens without the wrench.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2010, 04:20:24 PM »
on pizzazz website
"Our dough is made in store from scratch with our unique sour dough additive, oil and eggs,"

James,

Actually, I was aware of that. Some time ago, another member asked wadave for his dough recipe and I was asked for help in assessing the recipe. I did not want to mention the eggs before because I did not want to broadcast the recipe all over the forum (and the Internet) where even wadave's competitors might see it. In Norma's case, the eggs do not affect things. We are just adapting Dave's sour dough method to the Lehmann dough formulation.

Eggs add a bit more color to the crust, some protein and fat, and increase the hydration a bit because eggs (large) are about 76% water.

Peter

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2010, 04:28:53 PM »
I also interested to see how this sour dough modification of the Lehmann dough works out.

Norma,

I forgot to mention that by keeping the Lehmann sour dough version close to the basic Lehmann dough formulation you have been using, you should have a good basis for comparing the sour dough version against your preferment Lehmann version. I shudder to think about the possibility of your deciding to use both a sour dough mix and a poolish preferment in the basic Lehmann dough recipe. That would be a Rube Goldberg affair.

Peter

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2010, 04:54:31 PM »
Peter,

I can understand I will be able to compare this sour dough modification for the Lehmann dough with my current formula.  I was also wondering about the possibility that I might like this formula better.

I donít want to make you shudder.  This is what I think could happen.  :-D

Norma
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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2010, 08:32:56 AM »
This is the sour dough mix, that was mixed yesterday afternoon around 5pm.  It was left on the table for 13 hours when I took the last picture.  Looks like I am going to have to intervene in some way with a proofing box or the Hatco Unit, so this sour dough mixture does bubble more and get foamy, if I want to mix this into the final dough today. I put this sour dough mix in a food safe container and tightly closed the lid.  It smells about the same as it did when I mixed it.  The ambient temperature of the room is about 82 degrees F.

1st picture just mixed
2nd picture 4 hrs. on table
3rd picture 14 hrs.

Norma
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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2010, 05:59:45 PM »
I donít understand why this always happens, but whenever I start a project it seems like there are always problems. I guess that is to be expected. I always proceed, but it can sometimes get frustrating.  No razzle and dazzle today.

After I posted this morning, I placed the sour dough mix in my home proofing box, and left it there at 120 degrees F for 5 hours.  The sour dough mix, didnít look any different.  Well, it was off to get gas and do a few more errands. Into the van the sour dough mix went.

When I first arrived at market, I turned on the Hatco Unit and placed the sour dough mix in there, before I did anything else.  The temperature of the Hatco Unit was 120 degrees F.  I then proceeded to mix my batches of poolish for Monday, clean and do other things that needed done at market.  After I mixed the batches of poolish, I place them inside the Hatco Unit, along with the sour dough mix.  I thought maybe those bigger bad boy poolishs would help this little sour dough mix to liven up.  Well the bigger bad boy poolish were bubbling and ready for the deli case and the sour dough mix still didnít look like it had done much of anything.  I finished doing what I needed to do at market and then some, to let this sour dough mix have a chance to get foamy.  Well, that wasnít meant to be.  It was almost 5:00 pm and I needed to leave market, before the alarm system was turned on.  I sure didnít want to get a fine for setting off the alarms.  If the police need to come to market and it was you that made the alarm go off, then you get a fine.  That sure would have been an expensive sour dough mix.  Well this sour dough mix sure didnít have a chance to go into the bad big boy mixer.  Three more hours this sour dough mix was at 120 degrees F. 

Sour dough mix back into the van and back home again.  Now it is sitting on the table again.  I am not sure at this point what I am going to do, but I sure donít want to mix five dough balls up by hand, since I donít have a mixer at home.  The smell of the sour dough mix is good and it looks a little thicker.  I canít decide if this sour dough mix gets foamy, if I want to just divide the sour dough mix by 5, use that amount and then also take the final dough formulation and also go on the Lehmann dough calculator and just make the final dough mix for one dough ball.  I also can't decide if I want to put this sour dough mix back into the proofing box or just let it sit on the table. 

Another thing happened this morning that I can't figure out.  When I went to upload the pictures of this sour dough mix, my camera won't upload now.  Tried to figure that out, but still can't get them to upload.  I then borrowed my daughter's camera and put me memory stick into her camera, so I could take and upload pictures.  If it isn't one thing it is another.  :-D

Pictures below of the journey this sour dough mix has been on so far, today.  One good thing did happen today, but I will put that on another thread.

1st  picture after I took the sour dough mix out of the home proofing box.
2nd picture of sour dough mix alone in the Hatco Unit
3rd picture of sour dough mix along with batches of bad big boy poolish
4th picture of sour dough mix home again

Norma
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 06:01:48 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2010, 06:00:41 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2010, 07:29:45 AM »
Peter,

I had this sour dough mix going for awhile and I donít really understand if I am not doing something right with it or maybe I am not handling it right.  I remember when Toby helped me with making a natural starter and how that needed to sit for awhile before it started to bubble and then I fed the starter. That natural starter only had flour and water added to start the starter.  I also remember that different members did add some kind of acidic ingredient to this mix to get it started.  Since I am using on KABF, milk and sugar to make this sour dough mix, I am wondering if you know what is going to happen or how long this mix might take to become active.  I know wadave had a unique way of making his sour dough mix become active, but I have tried different methods and it has been a fair amount of time for it to become active. 

This morning I looked and smelled the sour dough mix.  It doesnít look much different, but it does smell a little sour, which it also did yesterday. The sour dough mix does look a little thicker.  I didnít put the sour dough mix in my proofing box when I came home from market and just let it sit on the table.  First thing this morning, I put the sour dough mix back into the proofing box.  This time I put a metal aluminum cake type pan under the sour dough mix to see if the heat would radiate from the pan and help this sour dough mix to become active. 

I have Googled what happens when flour, milk and sugar are used to make a sour dough mix.  I canít find a lot about that and mostly it tells how to make a starter, but not adding the sugar until later sometimes for something like a Amish starter. 

This sour dough mix does have a little sour smell, but there are no bubbles.  I would think from what I learned so far about starters, that the sour smell can tell you if lactic acid bacteria are working and also if there is yeast present and active.  Since no yeast was added to this sour dough mix, and this sour dough mix was made with KABF, it makes me wonder if a small amount of IDY should have been added to this mix to make it become active in a decent amount of time.  I would think this still would take at least a day to make the sour dough mix active even with using a small amount of IDY, but I am not sure of that.  I also would think this sour dough mix, then  would have some kind of yeast flavor instead of a real sour dough, since yeast competes with the real sourdough. 

Although this sour dough mix is something like a starter and wild yeast can help make a starter, I donít understand how this mix will behave or if it will ever become active.

Do you have any ideas on all of this or did you ever try a sour dough mix before?

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

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