Author Topic: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?  (Read 17077 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #100 on: August 05, 2010, 10:56:59 PM »
Norma,

I don't think you made a mistake. It was the brand I was asking about. The tool has two brand options--Morton's or Diamond Crystal. The amounts are different for the two brands.

Peter



Peter,

I used Morton's like I always use at market.  I had just checked my numbers from the last attempt and saw on them that the last attempt, it said to use 6.27 grams and when I figured it out for this attempt it said to use 6.26 grams.  With all the foul ups I did in the past, I could understand if I did something wrong in entering the numbers.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #101 on: August 05, 2010, 11:06:39 PM »
Norma,

Whenever I use the dough calculating tools to create dough formulations, I use regular/sea salt as the default salt. It is usually not a problem to substitute one type of salt for another, since that is what the Kosher salt producers often recommend to avoid confusing consumers, but the tools draw a distinction.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #102 on: August 05, 2010, 11:14:31 PM »
Norma,

Whenever I use the dough calculating tools to create dough formulations, I use regular/sea salt as the default salt. It is usually not a problem to substitute one type of salt for another, since that is what the Kosher salt producers often recommend to avoid confusing consumers, but the tools draw a distinction.

Peter

Peter,

I didn't know to use regular/sea salt as the default salt and surely didn't know that the tools do draw distinctions.  I will learn all this in time.

Norma
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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #103 on: August 05, 2010, 11:27:01 PM »
Norma,

I forgot that you were using the Morton's Kosher salt. I will try to keep that in mind when I create new dough formulations for you in the future.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #104 on: August 05, 2010, 11:52:56 PM »
Norma,

I forgot that you were using the Morton's Kosher salt. I will try to keep that in mind when I create new dough formulations for you in the future.

Peter

Peter,

If I ever need new dough formulations, I will remind you.  You have enough things to remember, let alone what kind of salt I am using.

Norma
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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #105 on: August 06, 2010, 02:25:04 PM »
Thanks for reporting on your last two sour dough mixes.  Did you put them in the refrigerator at all to try in something like a pancake mix?

Norma,

I don't want to steer this thread in the direction of pancake making but I did try using the last two sour dough mixes to make pancakes. Although I did not get good results, I learned a few things that I think might be useful in using sour dough mixes as discussed in this thread in pizza dough. Otherwise, I would not have posted on my results.

In my case, I used a simple sourdough pancake recipe that I found on the Internet at http://www.cowboyshowcase.com/sourdough.htm#regular%20sourdough%20pancakes. I followed the recipe although I omitted the sugar because the sour dough mixes were initially made with a fair amount of sugar and I thought that perhaps some of that sugar still remained in the mixes. The first surprise was that the pancakes did not taste sweet at all. That leads me to believe that after three or four days of prefermentation the sugar is essentially all gone. It will be recalled that the sour dough mixes had some sweetness after one day of prefermentation, so the bulk of the loss of sugar appears to occur during the second, third and fourth days of prefermentation (I had refrigerated the sour dough mixes after three days of prefermentation). This result suggests that one might be able to add sugar as part of the final mix if desired without fear that it might lead to an overly sweet finished crust.

The second thing that surprised me was that the pancakes turned brown very quickly--so quickly, in fact, that I had to lower the pan temperature so that the pancakes would cook in the middle. Even then, the pancakes browned too much for my taste. If I had to guess, it is perhaps the milk solids that contributed to the darkening of the pancakes. This can be a desirable thing for a pizza dough, where you might want that coloration. And, if the milk solids are responsible for the increase coloration, the sour dough mixes can apparently retain that characteristic or feature throughout the entire period of prefermentation, even after four days.

I was also surprised that I did not particularly detect a flavor contribution from the use of the sour dough mixes, even without the real maple syrup and fresh blueberries I finally used on the pancakes.

Of course, my results may simply demonstrate that I am a lousy pancake maker.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 02:34:55 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #106 on: August 06, 2010, 04:36:55 PM »
Peter,

I find your results interesting in your pancakes and how that relates to pizza making.  I would have thought there would be some kind of sweet taste, but understand the sugar might have been depleted.  I will note your observations about how many days the sugar is depleted in sour dough mixes. Your guess that the milk solids that contributed to the darkening of the pancakes is probably right.  I can understand that the darkening from the milk solids could help a pizza crust to have more color in the crust.

Thanks for your observations related to pizza making.

Norma
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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #107 on: August 06, 2010, 06:29:27 PM »
This is the same sour dough mix, that I have left on my kitchen table since yesterday, when I incorporated part of it into the final Lehmann dough.  It is still bubbling and foaming.

Picture just taken

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #108 on: August 06, 2010, 10:32:12 PM »
Something really strange just happened, with my sour dough mix.  Although I do have fresh fruit sitting in a container in my kitchen I haven’t noticed any fruit flies this summer.  I had taken the lid off the sour dough mix pictured above and was going to try and feed it some more flour and sugar to see if it would stay active.  I was on the web about 15 minutes searching for how a Amish starter is fed and by what amounts.  When I went back to the sour dough mix there were about 15 fruit flies around the inside rim of the Mason Jar.  I quickly put it in the sink and ran soapy water in the container.  Then I looked at my bananas, peaches and plums that were none around the fruit.  I then searched the web and saw different articles, but this one seems to fit, as other do. That is the end of that sour dough mix.  :-D

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2124/where-do-fruit-flies-come-from

If anyone is interested I did make waffles out of part of the sour dough mix, that was kept in the refrigerator until today. The waffles are in Off-Topic Foods at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11552.msg105834.html#msg105834

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #109 on: August 07, 2010, 07:47:08 PM »
I just wanted to post on “fruit flies” is anyone any one every wants to try anything like a sour dough mix or ever lets anything sit out to ferment for a long while.  I haven’t seen any fruit flies in my kitchen for many years.  It has been cooler in our area for the last few days.  I have the doors and windows open, but there are screens in those windows.  My guess is the “fruit flies” came in though the screens, but I don’t know.

After I saw the “fruit flies” around the rim of the sour dough mix, I have seen a few more.  I understand they multiply quickly and have a short life span.  I have made a make shift container to sit on my kitchen table and as you can see it has caught the fruit flies.  I used some of the sour dough mix, that is still in the refrigerator and put some of it on the bottom of this container.  I formed a funnel so the “fruit flies” can get in, but is it smaller on the bottom of the funnel so they can’t get out.  I have the top of the funnel taped to the container. There are about 8 “fruit flies” in the container now.  As I am typing this another one is going into the funnel. 

I just wanted anyone to know that fermenting anything can bring these “fruit flies”.  There still aren’t any “fruit flies” around the fruit I have in another container.

Just beware.  :o

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #110 on: August 08, 2010, 11:21:05 AM »
The dough ball I made with the sour dough mix at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11475.msg105797.html#msg105797  is still cold fermenting in the refrigerator.
Since the IDY was used in lesser amounts, it might last until Tuesday.  I had planned on making some more sour dough mix today and then making a sour dough mix incorporated into the Lehmann dough tomorrow and also making a regular Lehmann dough keeping the other variables the same, except the sour dough mix.  Since my mishap, I think I am going to wait until next week for the comparison of the two Lehmann doughs.

Pictures of the dough ball with the sour dough mix today.

Norma
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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #111 on: August 08, 2010, 02:05:16 PM »
Norma,

On a couple of occasions recently, you posed questions about possible causes of the softening of crusts made using the milk-based sour dough mix. I have been trying to think what might be behind the softening phenomenon, from enzymes in the milk to inactivated whey protein in unscalded milk. Today, I stumbled across an interesting thread on the use of milk in dough, at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5609.msg47524.html#msg47524. You might want to read it. One possibility that occurs to me after reading that thread is to conduct a simple experiment with one of your future sour dough mixes in which the milk is scalded and cooled before using in the sour dough mix. Another possibility that occurs to me would be to use a baker's grade dry milk powder and reconstitute it in water before using in a sour dough mix.

Peter

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #112 on: August 08, 2010, 03:48:42 PM »
Peter,

Yes, I did pose questions about possible causes of why the crust softens, when using the milk-based sour dough mix. 

I had thought about scalding the milk back at reply #22 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11475.msg105150.html#msg105150 but never gave that a try to see what would happen. Steve (Ev) also had scalded milk, but I don’t think he ever tried the sour dough mix in a dough, that I am aware of.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11475.msg105163.html#msg105163

I can see that thread you referenced was interesting and the next time I try to make a sour dough mix, I will make one sour dough mix with scalded milk and one without.  Maybe the tests will be able to explain why the crust get softer the next day and doesn’t seem to want to get crisp again.

If that doesn’t work, then I will try using a baker’s grade dry milk powder reconstituted in water. 
Maybe we can get this figured out. 

I hope this latest dough with the sour dough mix lasts until Tuesday.  I had wanted to try it out with my new soapstone today at home, but it is getting too hot here again, to keep the oven on so long.  I am anxious to try out the soapstone, but will wait until later.  My oven at market will be on all day Tuesday, so if this dough lasts, if should also be interesting how the crust tastes with a long ferment.

By looking at the pictures I posted in my last post, do you think the dough will last until Tuesday?  It still feels firm on the top of the dough ball and doesn’t look over fermented on the bottom.

Thanks,

Norma
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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #113 on: August 08, 2010, 04:05:45 PM »
Norma,

I agree that the dough does not look like it is fermenting too quickly. I would stick with Tuesday.

Peter

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #114 on: August 09, 2010, 08:48:16 AM »
Peter,

I have been checking on the sour dough mix dough ball that has been in my refrigerator and last evening saw it was beginning to spot on the top side surface. The dough ball is in a NSF food safe container, but there isn’t any hole drilled in the lid. I am wondering if I should wipe the condensation out of the inside of the container. I remember you saying in the Re:New KtichenAid Dough Making Method that the spots wouldn’t affect the final results. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg84364.html#msg84364  Hopefully this sour dough mix dough will last until tomorrow.

Pictures of dough ball this morning taken outside.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #115 on: August 09, 2010, 09:53:46 PM »
This is about starters and not a sour dough mix, but here northway, says to feed the starter a warm scalded milk and all-purpose flour. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5118.msg52800.html#msg52800

Here icemncmth says if you want a real twang, use milk in your starter.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4482.msg40750.html#msg40750

Another about drying starter by pacoast concentrating the lactobacilli in sterilized milk,  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9258.msg81250.html#msg81250

Another post by giotto, about any fat by-products also help soften the end results.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2027.msg18068.html#msg18068

These posts just make me wonder about scalding the milk for a sour dough mix.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 05:47:31 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #116 on: August 09, 2010, 10:33:34 PM »
Norma,

On the matter of whether you should make a small hole in the lid of your dough container, my recollection is that I used a metal container with a tight fitting lid. The lid did not have a hole in it, although I don't think that that would have affected the dough or its propensity to spot.

I don't think that I would wipe off the water that condenses on the inside of the lid. The water is good because it helps keep the dough ball from drying out. If gas buildup were to pose a problem, then a small hole in the lid would be appropriate.

With respect to the scalding of the milk for the sour dough mix, my view is that you could try to analyze what happens when you combine milk (whether scalded or not), flour and sugar over a period of one to three days but it is likely to be far easier to just conduct two simple experiments in which the milk is unscalded in one case and scalded in the other. If you find that one form of the milk does not affect the reheated pizza slices (that is, they are still firm and not floppy), then you will have the answer. Then, if you would like, you can try to analyze what happened to the sour dough mix during its prefermentation that produced the desired results.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 10:43:11 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #117 on: August 10, 2010, 06:26:58 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for your advise on the condensation.  This morning there is still condensation on the lid, but the sides of the container are dry.  I guess the dough ball used the condensation on the sides.  Since it is supposed to be hot in our area today (around 95 degrees F) and there is no air-conditioning at market, I will watch the warm-up of this dough ball. The temperature at my market stand will probably be near 100 degrees F.  I don’t want to let it warm-up to long, because I have found in the past at the New KitchenAid Dough Making Method at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg84593.html#msg84593, if I let the dough ball out too long, the dough wanted to become unmanageable and that was in the winter time. My regular preferment for the Lehmann dough balls can’t be left out for too long in this hot weather either. Hopefully this dough ball will be okay today, in terms of opening it and also okay in making a pizza.

I will conduct an experiment this week, with scalded and unscalded milk to see if that has any effects on the sour dough mix fermenting and also make two more dough balls from the mixes to see how they then cold ferment.

Picture of dough ball this morning.

Norma
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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #118 on: August 10, 2010, 10:22:11 PM »
Steve and I made a pizza today out of the sour dough mix dough ball, that I had made last Thursday.  Since it was so hot at market today, (around 96 degrees F) I didn’t want to let this dough ball warm up too long.  We let the dough ball warm up for about 45 minutes.  This dough with the sour dough mix added today felt much drier than last weeks dough.  It took awhile to open the dough ball.  I started and let Steve finished opening the dough ball. The opened skin was just dressed with mozzarella and regular sauce.  The finished pizza in terms of the crust tasted better in my opinion than last weeks pizza.  To me there was a much more complex taste to the crust.  It wasn’t sour in any way and I also thought it did have a little sweetness in the taste.  I am trying to fix the pictures I took today, because I tried to resize them all at once and somehow, I made them to small and then too big.  I am only going to try to post two at a time to see what then happens.  Steve will comment later on how he thought this pizza turned out in terms of taste and crust flavor.  Steve did take home two slices and so did I.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Sour Dough Modification for Lehmann Dough?
« Reply #119 on: August 10, 2010, 10:25:48 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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