Author Topic: Please help get me started...  (Read 4167 times)

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Offline onemsmom

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Please help get me started...
« on: August 14, 2010, 10:17:51 PM »
Once my 2 small children are grown, I plan on spending a lot of time perusing & enjoying all of your posts & learning how to make a magnificent pizza, but for now, my time is extremely limited & my goal really is to make decent N.Y. style pizza dough in a big batch & freeze the dough balls so I can make one a week.  I have read enough posts to gather the following info:

I have a round pizza stone (15")
I bought a digital scale
I have IDY  (in the freezer - is that o.k.?)
I bought Sam's high gluten flour (enriched/bleached/bromated)
I bought a peel
I know to preheat stone & oven at 500+ for 1 hour
I should use fresh/good quality mozzarella
I should use good quality crushed tomatoes for a sauce & add oregano, etc.
I should rub crust w/oo  ??  did I get that right?
I should drizzle cheese w/ oo before baking



I have a bosch universal mixer which is big/strong enough to make 6+ loaves of ww bread at a time.

Can someone please get me started with a good dough recipe/protocol?

I have seen so many different recipes depending on flour type/dough ball size/type of yeast - I'm getting a headache trying to find a recipe that I can start with for the flour that I bought and then scale it to make 6 or so balls at one time?  How many grams should each ball be for my size stone?  Should I let it rise at room temperature before the freeze?    Any other tips? 
 

Also, could anyone point me in the direction of a few  good newbie threads that explain all the steps well?  I am spending a lot of time jumping from thread to thread and only coming up with a headache from information overload.

Thanks so much,

Jennifer








Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2010, 10:37:39 PM »
Jennifer welcome to the forum. Good informative post. You definitely have the necessary equipment and supplies to make really good NY style pizza.  Just have some patience, read and practice as often as you can. SAMs HG bromated flour is an awesome flour. The Bosch is a great mixer I hear.  Order some stanilaus tomato products and Gangi Dante oregano.  Try a few different mozzarellas and pepperonis until you find one suits your taste.   Search for the "Lehmann" recipe posted by Peter. That's a good starting point.  Jeff Varasano's recipe or reverse engineering Patsy's is a good one as well.  Ive also posted a beginner recipe called "basic easy to remember NY pizza recipe".

Good luck and don't forget to post pics.
Chau

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 10:42:44 PM »
onemsmom,

Is there a particular number of dough balls you want to make? I think I should be able to come up with a NY style dough formulation for you to use for whatever number of dough balls you'd like. Do you know how much dough your Bosch mixer can make at one time?

Peter

Offline onemsmom

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2010, 10:53:28 PM »
It appears as if I can make 10lbs of dough in the mixer.  I will make as many as will still taste good from the freezer at a rate of baking 2 a week.

Thanks!

Jenn
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 10:56:04 PM by onemsmom »

Offline norma427

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2010, 11:19:18 PM »
It appears as if I can make 10lbs of dough in the mixer.  I will make as many as will still taste good from the freezer at a rate of baking 2 a week.

Thanks!

Jenn

Jenn,

I freeze my dough, but don't know how long you will be able to keep the dough frozen.  I only keep my dough frozen for one week.  I have froze my dough for two weeks, but it seems to suffer some when frozen for that long.  I have a freezer that stays frozen until I defrost it.  It doesn't cycle to defrost.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 11:23:52 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2010, 11:22:07 PM »
Jennifer, I do not own a mixer but have been told that this is agood technique.  It's posted by senior member Scottr.  It's mixing instructions for the Electrolux DLX.  Not the bosch but close enough.  ;)

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7605.0.html

Jeff Varasano's website has detailed mixing instructions and recipe as well and lots of photos.
http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm

Lehmann recipe
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.0.html

That should get you started.

Chau

 






Online scott123

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2010, 11:32:14 PM »
I have a freezer that stays frozen until I defrost it.  It doesn't cycle to defrost.

Norma

Norma brings up a good point.  Jenn, is your freezer self defrosting? I'm not sure how well frozen dough will work in a self defrosting freezer.

Offline onemsmom

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2010, 11:44:18 PM »
Yes, self defrosting.  Maybe I need to set my sights on making enough dough just for that night & one week later - so let's say 4 dough balls at a time.   Would that be better?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2010, 12:05:17 AM »
Jenn,

I am not the biggest fan of frozen dough but I have done a lot of research on the subject and have conducted several experiments with frozen dough to lead me to believe that you should be able to successfully make and use frozen dough balls over a two to three week period. Four dough balls is a safer approach than six dough balls but if you are interested it might be worth an experiment to test the outer limits of the frozen dough ball method. I will address this topic in greater detail tomorrow.

In the meantime, is there a particular size pizza you would like to make? Unless you have had a lot of experience loading unbaked 15" pizzas onto your 15" stone, which would be an accomplishment in itself, I would suggest that you start with 13" pizzas and work your way up to 14". If you have a preference between 13" and 14", please let me know.

Peter

Offline onemsmom

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2010, 12:12:51 AM »
Well, the peel I just bought is 13.5" wide, so I guess I had better stick with the 13", but then I had better make 3 pizzas, so let's do 6 dough balls for a 13" pizza each - 3 for one week, 3 to freeze for the next week.  New York style.  Yum.  (My favorite is Grotto's pizza @ Rehoboth, Beach De. (and now expanding)  - they use some combo of mozz & white cheddar, but I'll save that for a later discussion!)  For now, I'll just do a regular NY style.  I'm getting hungry just thinking about it.

p.s.  no experience with loading at all


Online scott123

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2010, 12:44:20 AM »
Jenn, I took a look a few photos of the pizzas Grotto's sells.  If you're looking to recreate it, I'd make a short fermentation dough (2 hours max) with a good amount of sugar (I'm thinking maybe 2%) added to it.

Working with a peel:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 12:47:12 AM by scott123 »

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2010, 12:59:56 AM »
you can't launch a pizza bigger than your peel but you can pull a pizza bigger than the peel (ie 18" pizza on a 12" peel, used to do it all the time)
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline norma427

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2010, 07:37:37 AM »
Well, the peel I just bought is 13.5" wide, so I guess I had better stick with the 13", but then I had better make 3 pizzas, so let's do 6 dough balls for a 13" pizza each - 3 for one week, 3 to freeze for the next week.  New York style.  Yum.  (My favorite is Grotto's pizza @ Rehoboth, Beach De. (and now expanding)  - they use some combo of mozz & white cheddar, but I'll save that for a later discussion!)  For now, I'll just do a regular NY style.  I'm getting hungry just thinking about it.

p.s.  no experience with loading at all


Jenn,

If you are looking to produce a pizza similar to Grotto’s Pizza, maybe you want to look though some of the pages in the NJ Boardwalk thread, under General Pizzamaking.  That is a long thread, but if you scan though from about the middle, you can decide if that is something like the kind of pie you want to create.  From what I understand their pizza is something like Mack’s pizza or Mack and Mancos Pizza at the NJ shore, except Grotto’s uses mozzarella and a cheddar blend, where the pies were are working on only use mild white cheddar. Peter and I both have formulas there for that style crust of pizzas.

These are a few pictures and one of the formulas from that thread.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg103522.html#msg103522

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg103524.html#msg103524   

I don’t usually use that formula for my pizzas, but have been experimenting with the Mack’s pizzas and one week a couple customers bought a few slices of that kind of pie and said it tasted like Grotto’s pizza.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2010, 10:10:35 AM »
Jenn,

Since you mentioned the Grotto's pizzas and other members have commented on those pizzas, I will defer from proceeding further on recommending a NY style dough formulation until you confirm that you are indeed interested in that style, not the Grotto's style. I would rather not go through an elaborate discussion of the NY style if you are not really after that style after all.

I commented recently on the Grotto's style pizza at Reply 410 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg103570/topicseen.html#msg103570. The photos referenced in that post are for Grotto's pizzas from a different location, but it appears from photos I found through Google Image that the Grotto's that makes the Rehoboth Beach pizzas are part of the same chain. The Grotto's pizza is not a NY style but if it is the Grotto's pizza that you are after, then you should by all means look at the NJ Boardwalk thread that Norma mentioned. Some adaptation of the dough formulations described at that thread may be needed to get you to a 13" pizza size but either Norma or I should be able to help you with that if you decide to go with the style of pizza covered in that thread. A discussion of how to freeze dough balls should be essentially the same for a NJ Boardwalk style pizza as for a NY style pizza.

It would also help to know how much experience you have with pizza making. Knowing that will make it easier to tailor the instructions to your level of pizza making and knowledge.

Peter

Offline onemsmom

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2010, 11:25:32 AM »
For now, I would truly love to know how to make a regular NY style pizza like we get from pizzarias each week, spending a small fortune.  Grotto's style will be for someday later, as an occasional treat.  Personally, I only like Grotto's with plain cheese - toppings ruin it for me.  I want to be able to load a pizza up with interesting ingredients each week, so let's just stick with NY style. 

I have only limited pizza making experience - but that was experience doing things WRONG (ex.  flattening a store bought dough with a rolling pin & loading it into the 350 degree oven on a cold stone - don't laugh at me!)  I have almost no experience doing them correctly other than one evening at a pizza buff's house (he use to own a pizzeria)  he showed us how to flatten the dough with fingers leaving a  rim & them picking it up & spreading with fists.  So, in sum - only one evening of experience & we didn't MAKE the dough we just flattened/stretched & loaded it.

I'm eager to hear your protocol & formulation for 6 dough balls for  13" pizzas baked on a 15" stone.  I will freeze 3 for use one week later if you think that will work out well.  I appreciate your time.  I have read many of your posts, Peter & see you spend a lot of time helping newbies.  Thank you.  I am ready to learn & ready to make some pizza.  Thanks for everyone else's replies as well - I am reading, reading, reading.

Jennifer

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2010, 02:01:12 PM »
Jennifer,  if it helps,  the bosch is one of the easiest mixers I know if to make dough in.  Here are the basic steps I use.

1 add all water for formula to bowl with hook already in it
2 add sat and mix for a couple seconds till dissolved.
3 add all formula flour,  yes this is ok.
4 add idy or ady on top of flour.
5 cover with lids
6 mix for 1 minute or until combined speed one
7 let rest for 10 minutes
8 mix for 5 minutes on speed one
9 remove from bowl and age as desired.

-marc

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2010, 03:02:13 PM »
Jenn,

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I have set forth the following version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation (http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_nystyle.php) as adapted for your particular purposes:

Sam's High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.35%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (166.1%):
Single Ball:
1379.68 g  |  48.67 oz | 3.04 lbs
869.2 g  |  30.66 oz | 1.92 lbs
4.83 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.6 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
24.14 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.33 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
13.8 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.07 tsp | 1.02 tbsp
2291.64 g | 80.83 oz | 5.05 lbs | TF = 0.1015
381.94 g | 13.47 oz | 0.84 lbs
Note: The dough is for six 13" pizzas; the salt is table salt or sea salt; nominal thickness factor = 0.10; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; desired individual dough ball weight = 3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5 x 0.10 = 13.27 ounces, or 13.27 x 28.35 = 376.2 grams

As you will note from the above table, the dough formulation is intended to make six 13" pizzas. I selected a bowl residue compensation for your application of 1.5%. The bowl residue compensation compensates for minor dough losses that occur during the preparation of the dough, such as the flour, water and dough sticking to mixer bowls, work surfaces, the fingers, etc. Usually you will end up with a bit more dough than you need but it is almost always a slight increase with no material effect on the weight of the dough balls or how you will use them. As noted above, the desired individual dough ball weight is 13.27 ounces, or 376.2 grams.

The thread that I usually recommend to newbies on the Lehmann NY style dough formulation when used in a home setting is the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19503.html#msg19503. The main part of the discussion starts at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563/topicseen.html#msg19563, but I often suggest that readers read the entire thread in order to get a more complete view of the entire process. Reading the entire thread also gives the reader an opportunity to pose questions or to ask for clarifying detail.

In your case, since you have a digital scale, you should weight the flour and water. If your scale is accurate enough to weight the rest of the ingredients, you can do so but I usually just use the volume measurements (with rounding of the volume numbers if needed) for the remaing ingredients. Also, in your case, since you have a Bosch mixer, you should have an easier task of making the dough. There are other members who have Bosch mixers and may be able to answer any questions on how to use that mixer (as I see widespreadpizza has already done as I was composing this reply) to make the Lehmann dough in the batch size you will be using (a bit over 5 pounds), but you can also do a forum search using the keyword "Bosch" (without the quotes) to find posts that discuss the Bosch mixer. For example, you might specifically do a forum search on posts about the Bosch mixer by scott r, a member who swears by the Bosch and who indicates that you can just about throw all of the ingredients into the mixer bowl and start mixing and kneading. To do such a search, you should click on the icon at the top of each page of the forum next to the Search box.

On the matter of making and freezing dough balls, the advice that Tom Lehmann gives on freezing the dough balls in a home setting where a static freezer is used that cycles through defrost sequences is not to freeze them for more than about 10 days, which he sometimes stretches to 15 days. I discussed this point, along with some advice on how to defrost the dough balls, at Reply 176 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg84165/topicseen.html#msg84165 and at Reply 249 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2403.msg46372/topicseen.html#msg46372.

The two most common approaches to freezing dough balls from a timing standpoint is to either freeze the dough balls after they are made or after they have fermented. When I first started experimenting with frozen dough balls, I made them the way that commercial companies make frozen dough balls for their customers (mostly pizza operators). That meant modifying the dough formulation to compensate for the harm that freezing does to dough balls and freezing the dough balls right after they were made. The downside to this approach is that the dough balls cannot ferment when frozen. The fermentation is what is responsible for the flavor, taste, texture, aroma and other desired attributes of a finished pizza crust. With frozen dough balls made this way, essentially the only fermentation the dough balls get is while they are defrosting and warmed up prior to using.

As mentioned above, the second method for freezing the dough balls from a timing standpoint is to freeze the dough balls after they have fermented (risen). As I noted at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10056.msg89496/topicseen.html#msg89496, Cook's Illustrated conducted frozen dough tests and came to the conclusion that dough balls frozen after fermentation were better than those that were frozen before fermentation. As it so happens, the last frozen dough ball that I used to make a pizza (a Lehmann NY style pizza) was one that I had cold fermented for three days and then froze for about 17 1/2 days. I described the results from using that dough ball, along with a new baking method I was experimentiing with (and which you can ignore for your purposes at this point), at Reply 830 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg96046/topicseen.html#msg96046. The dough ball was a regular Lehmann NY style dough ball, not one that I had modified for freezing purposes.

In your case, I think I would freeze the dough balls after fermenting. The dough formulation that I have set forth above should allow you to cold ferment the dough balls for up to three days if you make sure that the finished dough temperatures are below 80 degrees F. Also, in your case, you can decide when you want to freeze the unused dough balls based on your schedule. To keep things in order, you should note when you freeze the dough balls and how long they were cold fermented before freezing. With experience, you should be able to compare fresh with frozen dough balls and, if necessary, make adjustments to the starting dough formulation and/or freezing regimen. With the expanded dough calculating tool mentioned above, formulation changes are easy and fast to make. In due course, as with many of our members, you may end up making the changes yourself. For example, you might want to make the crusts thicker or thinner (by increasing or decreasing the thickness factor), or make larger pizzas, or different numbers of pizzas, etc.

In my experience, once members have "mastered" the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, they inevitably tire of it and want to kick it up another notch so to speak. There are many ways of doing this, but my usual prescription to new members, especially those who do not have much pizza making experience or even artisan bread making experience, is to first master a basic recipe such as the Lehmann recipe to learn how it works and how to achieve consistent, uniform and reproducible results. By that time, you will have read more about pizza making on the forum and be ready and maybe even prepared to make changes.

Peter

Note: Edited to state the targeted individual dough ball weight

« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 07:48:30 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline onemsmom

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2010, 04:13:25 PM »
YAY!!!!  I'm going to make some pizza!!!!! 

Wish me luck.  Hopefully, I'll come out alive.

Thanks so much, Peter & everyone else who took time to reply!

I'll let ya know how it turns out.  As long as my kids don't say, "Mommy, could you please buy pizza at the pizza store next time?", I will be happy. 
Jenn

Offline norma427

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2010, 06:09:00 PM »
YAY!!!!  I'm going to make some pizza!!!!! 

Wish me luck.  Hopefully, I'll come out alive.

Thanks so much, Peter & everyone else who took time to reply!

I'll let ya know how it turns out.  As long as my kids don't say, "Mommy, could you please buy pizza at the pizza store next time?", I will be happy. 
Jenn

Jenn,

Best of luck to you in making your pizzas.  :)  When you learn to make your own pizzas, you won't want to buy them out again, unless you want some kind of special pizza.  This forum is where I learned to make pizzas.

Norma
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Offline onemsmom

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Re: Please help get me started...
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2010, 08:13:55 PM »
Well, 6 balls of dough in the fridge.....I feel like an expectant mother again.

Everything went fine, except the scale only went to .1 instead of .01, so that will have to be exchanged.  I ended up with 5 at 283g and one at 253g ???, Probably from all the rounding???  I'll give the small one to the kids!

Here's a pic of the dough, divided & ready to go in the ziploc.  It didn't look that oily in person - hope I didn't use too much!

Can you tell by looking at it if it's going to turn out well?  I'm going to leave it in the fridge until Tuesday night.

Jenn


 

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