Author Topic: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula  (Read 30983 times)

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Offline norma427

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Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« on: August 25, 2010, 06:17:44 PM »

The Ischia starter is active, alive and was incorporated into the Lehmann dough.  When I measured the Ischia starter, I only used 3/4 cup of starter because that was the weight given in the formula set-forth. 

I am going to try the Lehmann dough with the Ischia starter incorporated and see how long this dough can cold ferment, before having to make pizzas out of two dough balls. This dough pictured in the pictures is for two dough balls for a 14" pizza.  Half of the bulk fermented dough is going to be balled and left to room ferment until it doubles in size, then cold fermented..  The other half is going to be balled and put into the refrigerator to ferment.  This dough was made with KASL.

I recently started playing around with starters at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11578.msg106188.html#msg106188

Formula for two dough balls for 14" pizza

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):                552.51 g  |  19.49 oz | 1.22 lbs
Water (61%):                337.03 g  |  11.89 oz | 0.74 lbs
Salt (01.75%):                  9.67 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.73 tsp | 0.58 tbsp
Total (162.75%):         899.21 g | 31.72 oz | 1.98 lbs | TF = 0.1030225
Single Ball:                           449.6 g | 15.86 oz | 0.99 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:                           39.76 g | 1.4 oz | 0.09 lbs
Water:                             39.76 g | 1.4 oz | 0.09 lbs
Total:                             79.51 g | 2.8 oz | 0.18 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:                   512.75 g | 18.09 oz | 1.13 lbs
Water:                    297.28 g | 10.49 oz | 0.66 lbs
Salt:                             9.67 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.73 tsp | 0.58 tbsp
Preferment:                 79.51 g | 2.8 oz | 0.18 lbs
Total:                   899.21 g | 31.72 oz | 1.98 lbs  | TF = 0.1030225

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2010, 06:19:42 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2010, 06:43:13 PM »
Norma,

As a point of clarification, are you saying that 3/4 cup of your Ischia poolish weighed 2.8 ounces?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2010, 06:58:20 PM »
Norma,

As a point of clarification, are you saying that 3/4 cup of your Ischia poolish weighed 2.8 ounces?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, the 3/4 cup of my starter weighed 2.8 ounces or 79.51 grams.  My starter is a little thick, so maybe that is why it weighed heavier.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 07:06:21 PM »
Norma,

After I posted, I mixed roughly 40 grams of flour and 40 grams of water in a one-cup Pyrex measuring cup and it was around 1/3 cup.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 07:18:17 PM »
Peter,

Did I figured out this formula out wrong on the preferment dough calculating tool?  I had entered to make 2 dough balls using the starter representing 14.3908 % of the Total Formula Flour and the percent of water used in the poolish at 50%.  I am still learning about my starters and sometimes feed them more flour than water.  The starter I pulled out of the fridge this morning was a thicker starter.  By what I have seen so far this Lehmann dough with the starter added becomes active very fast. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2010, 07:41:17 PM »
Norma,

I believe that you used the tool correctly, but to get your numbers I had to use regular salt instead of Kosher salt, a thickness factor of 0.10 (the value you have been using with the Lehmann formulation) and a bowl residue compensation of 3.0225%, which was an unusual value. Are those the values you used or did you use a different combination of values?

I think it was a weighing error, since 3/4 cup of a poolish preferment with equal weights of flour and water should weigh somewhere between 5.5-6.8 ounces. If we simply assume a weight of 6 ounces for two dough balls, that comes to almost 31% of the weight of the Total Formula flour. That could explain why the dough has bolted out of the gate.

Peter

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2010, 08:00:30 PM »
Peter,

I did use regular salt in the preferment dough calculating tool, a thickness factor of 0.10 and a bowl residue of 1.5.  I think I also must have had a measuring error with the starter.  I canít remember if I had tared out my measuring cup, but thought I did. Maybe that is why this dough is so active.  I probably added to much starter to the Lehmann dough.

I will make the pizzas when I think the dough is ready.  I think I have already learned that when using a starter, I will have to find out how much starter to use if I want this Lehmann dough to last for a few days.  I will see what happens with the dough.

These are some pictures of the dough after bulk fermented and the dough balls. One dough ball refrigerated right about bulk ferment.  Second dough ball after room ferment of two hours. I then reballed the second dough ball and put it into the refrigerator.  I didnít want to reball, but the dough ball already looked like it was fermenting a lot. Picture of last dough ball before I reballed.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 08:15:33 PM »
Norma,

If you used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, you must have used a thickness factor of 0.1015. Otherwise, the numbers are not the same as you posted. I mention this in case someone wants to modify your dough formulation for some reason.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 08:31:31 PM »
Norma,

If you used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, you must have used a thickness factor of 0.1015. Otherwise, the numbers are not the same as you posted. I mention this in case someone wants to modify your dough formulation for some reason.

Peter

Peter,

You are right.  I just looked at my papers I have the dough formula on and the thickness factor is 0.1015.  The last time I posted I was looking at nominal thickness factor.  Sorry for the confusion if someone might want to try to use this formula. 

Thanks for your help in finding my weighing error for the starter.  I would have wondered why the dough was so active. 

Norma
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 10:05:07 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 08:37:20 PM »
Norma,

It is still a good experiment to show what using a fairly large amount of poolish preferment does to the fermentation of the dough. You might also see how the increased acid production has a strengthening effect on the gluten structure and a tendency to produce a more elastic dough.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 10:18:07 PM »
Peter,

I am interested how this experiment will work out.  I can understand the poolish preferment was high.  When I went to pull the bulk fermented dough out of the bowl, I saw all that gluten formation.  I will watch the dough balls while they are cold fermenting and see when they are ready to be baked into pies.

Next time I will make sure to measure the starter poolish preferment out right. At least this botched weighing might teach me more about how starters work, when used in higher amounts.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2010, 08:15:07 PM »
This is how the dough balls look this evening.  I am going to let them go for another day or two to see if they are useable.  The bottom of the dough balls do look like there is a lot of fermentation going on, but the top of the dough balls looks okay.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2010, 08:52:45 PM »
I baked a Chicken Buffalo Pizza tonight using the dough ball that had been room bulk fermented, balled once and room fermented again and then reballed and finally cold fermented. I thought maybe this dough would be hard to handle, because it looked to me, like the dough ball was overfermenting. 

I was surprised this dough ball was easy to open and didnít show any signs of overfementation.
The Ischia starter incorporated into the Lehmann dough must act different than the preferment Lehmann dough I usually use. The dough ball was left to warm-up for an hour.

The pie was dressed with Kenís Ranch Dressing, chicken I had mixed with Franksí Cayenne Hot Sauce and Butter, blend of Foremost Cheese and Blue Cheese Crumbles.  I baked this pie on my cordierite stone.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2010, 08:53:46 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2010, 08:55:03 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2010, 10:31:59 PM »
Norma,

Can you compare the latest pizza with the last one you made with the Ischia starter? And did you prefer one over the other and, if so, why?

Peter

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2010, 07:32:43 AM »
Peter,

I enjoyed the pizza that was made last night better than my last attempt.  I had forgot my IR gun at market, from when I was trying out the soapstone there.  My deli fin coils had frozen up Tuesday night, so I had to remove everything from the deli case, put everything in my pizza prep fridge, then go back and sanitize everything and put it all back in the deli case Thursday. From all the humidity we are having in our area this summer, I thought at some point this was going to happen, because the deli case is on all the time.  Friday morning I went to market to make the poolish and forgot the IR gun again, so I didnít have any way of measuring the temperature on the baking stone before I started to bake this pie.  I just left the oven on for one hour.  I donít think the stone was hot enough.  Right at the end of the bake I turned the broiler on.  I should have just left the pizza do a normal bake on the stone.  I think the rim would have gotten a more even color.  The bake took about four Ĺ minutes. When I opened the oven door to take the one picture, I could hear the sizzle of the rim expanding. 

I enjoyed this crust better, because the inside of the crust was moister and in my opinion there was a more complex taste to the crust.  The taste wasnít a sour dough flavor at all.  I had thought by looking at the underneath of the dough ball that it was overfermented, but that wasnít the case.  Did you ever have dough balls that looked overfermented, but we fine when you went to open them?  There were a few little dark specks on the top of the dough ball.  I need to learn and understand better how starters work in a dough balls and just actually how long you can let them cold ferment.  I still have the other dough ball that was bulk fermented, balled and cold fermented.  It also looks on the bottom of the dough ball to be overfermented, but if I find time today, I want to try to make that dough ball into a pizza, using my BBQ set-up with the small soapstone.  I will still have problems with how hot the top firebricks and soapstone are, because I canít measure the temperatures.  I will have to guess the temperatures, like I did last evening. 

I really donít know how dough balls smells that will produce a pie that has a sourdough taste, but when smelling both of these dough balls, they do have a different smell than any of my other dough balls. I havenít ever tasted a pizza crust with a sourdough flavor, so I donít know what to expect. Since I had used more starter in this formula than I should have, what did you expect to happen to these dough balls in terms of them opening and being baked into a pizza?

I also enjoyed this recent pie, because it was a Buffalo Chicken pizza.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2010, 10:30:00 AM »
Norma,

Since most of my pizza doughs use small amounts of yeast and since I control temperatures of everything as best I can, I rarely have a problem with doughs overfermenting. After years of using this approach, I think I developed a sixth sense, largely based on technical factors but including some intuition, for when a dough should be ready to use. In a sense, I "program" the dough to be ready when I want to use it. But, on occasion, a dough ball will have its own mind and want to do its own thing and can be ready sooner than I planned. Usually it is temperature related and where I perhaps didn't do a good enough job controlling the finished dough temperature. However, since I use the poppyseed method most of the time, at least until I learn the dough's behavior pattern, things don't get out of control. So, once a dough doubles in volume, I pay close attention and I observe the degree of fermentation as evidenced by the amount of fermentation bubbles that I can see in my glass or plastic container at the sides and bottom.

I also observe the top of the dough to see if it is firm. If it is firm, I usually don't worry about the degree of fermentation of the dough. I also discovered that bubbles can form at the top of the dough yet the dough is not overfermented. If the top of the dough is firm and not billowy or soft, I just pinch the bubbles shut. If the top of the dough is soft and there is a profusion of fermentation bubbles, then I use the dough. You can see examples of bubbles in doughs that were not overfermented at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652 and at Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081. These were doughs leavened with commercial yeast, not a natural starter or preferment. These days I am more lilely to use glass or plastic storage containers to allow me to better see what is happening at the sides or bottoms of the dough balls.

In terms of sourdough flavor, I personally do not like crusts that have a flavor such as one would get in a classic San Francisco sourdough bread. I have never gotten that type of sourness using any of my natural starters/preferments. The flavors have always been complex but not sour.

What I was interested most in your experiment is whether the large amount of Ischia poolish starter you used would produce too much acid that might affect the strength of the gluten structure in a way as to make the dough overly elastic and difficult to open and stretch, which would not be desirable for use at market if you ever took it that far. That might be more common with a poolish that is leavened with commercial yeast and is given a chance to produce a lot of acid in the final dough but it may be that that isn't an issue with a natural starter or maybe your fermentation protocol, including a period of cold fermentation that slowed things down, did not reach the point of producing an overly elastic dough.

My practice when embarking on a dough project such as yours is to frame the issue by working both extremes of the exercise so that I get a clearer perspective of what the parameters are. For example, I might first use a very small amount of starter and then a very large amount of starter while keeping everthing else exactly the same as much as possible. Otherwise, I won't do the experiment. Then, based on the results, including personal preferences that emerge from the exercise, I fill in the gaps with other experiments. Often the results suggest the next experiments to conduct. In your case, you have done two such experiments at somewhat opposite ends, even if the latest one was by accident, so you may already have decided in which direction you want to take your next experiment.

Peter

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2010, 12:05:00 PM »
Peter,

I appreciate you explaining to me how you have developed a ďsixth senseĒ in knowing when dough balls have are overfermented and need to be made into a pizza.  I hope some day I can also know enough about overfermenting, dough balls and will be able to understand all of this.  All the links you provide do help me to understand how dough ferments.

The top of the last dough ball is still firm and there is no evidence of any bubbles on the top.  I just went outside and took pictures of the top of the dough ball and the underneath.  From all that you have explained to me, I think I will continue to watch this dough ball and see if I can let it go and try to make a pizza tomorrow.  At least then the dough ball will be 4 days old, and I could then see if something like using a starter for my market pizzas could work out.  I will continue to do experiments at home to learn more about starters incorporated into the Lehmann dough. 

You are also right, that by accident, this has taught me more about how too much starter can behave in a starter dough.  Probably my next experiment will be to use the normal amounts of starter called for in the formula you set-forth to see how that dough behaves. 

I had learned over time how my preferment Lehmann dough behaves and what all goes into that.  Hopefully, I also will learn all this with the Ischia Lehmann formula.  If you can think of any other tests I should do on this last dough ball, let me know, or if you think I should go about using this dough ball in a different way, also let me know. 

I also find on the first link you posted, and reading down to the post about the three stages of French levain method interesting.  I might try that experiment someday.

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/threestagefrench.html

I appreciate you helping me with this new project.

Pictures below of dough ball in the last Ĺ hour.

Norma
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