Author Topic: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula  (Read 28811 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #120 on: September 19, 2010, 11:00:39 PM »
Mike,

If I can find a formulation to use for a 24 hr. dough with a starter, I could split the starter.  I havenít gotten that far as of this date.  I am using the Ischia starter right now and can see how finicky it is.  What I have at market that could proof the dough is a Hatco Unit.  The temperature of that unit at its lowest is 85 degrees F.  I use that unit to make the poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough.  I would need a rather large unit to be able to proof all my dough.  The other obstacle I could see right now is I wouldnít want to let that unit on overnight.  I do have liability insurance, but if that unit would catch on fire, I would be responsible for what would happen. 

I donít know if a Thermokool MR-138 would be allowed for inspection by the food inspectors.  Each thing I use needs a NSF rating. 

When I get to market in the morning, I need to light my oven, get all my utensils ready, mix water to sanitize utensils and do many other things.  That takes about an hour.  I donít know when I would have time to ball the bulk fermented dough and then have it ready for 8:30 am. This would be needed for a 24 hour dough. Since I am getting older, the amount of time I spend at market Tuesday is enough for me.  Most days I donít get to sit down even one time.  If I am not getting things ready, I am washing dishes, waiting on customers, cleaning things or making pizza.  You would be surprised how many pans and other items get dirty in a days time.  There are also rules that you need to clean out the container that holds sauce and your utensils that you serve the pizza with at different times. 

Thanks for your ideas and if you have anymore, I am willing to listen.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #121 on: September 19, 2010, 11:12:55 PM »
Norma,

The optimum fermentation temperature for dough to be fermented along the lines advocated by Marco (pizzanapoletana) is between 64.4-68 degrees F (18-20 degrees C). So, your Hatco unit, if it could handle 10-15 pound of dough, would not be suitable, or else your dough would ferment much faster and most likely produce sub-par results. If you had an MR-138 unit, or one similar or comparable to it, and even if it were NSF rated, it also would be unsuitable for 10-15 pounds of dough. However, it could be used for experimental purposes for small batch sizes.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #122 on: September 19, 2010, 11:29:45 PM »
Norma,

The optimum fermentation temperature for dough to be fermented along the lines advocated by Marco (pizzanapoletana) is between 64.4-68 degrees F (18-20 degrees C). So, your Hatco unit, if it could handle 10-15 pound of dough, would not be suitable, or else your dough would ferment much faster and most likely produce sub-par results. If you had an MR-138 unit, or one similar or comparable to it, and even if it were NSF rated, it also would be unsuitable for 10-15 pounds of dough. However, it could be used for experimental purposes for small batch sizes.

Peter

Peter,

I can see that there would have to be some special kind of equipment needed to ferment the dough in those temperatures.  I didnít know what the optimal temperature were for fermenting doughs, but had an idea that is was lower than my Hatco Unit. I have read about MR-138 units and donít think I am ready to purchase one for experimental purposes. 

Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #123 on: September 19, 2010, 11:50:47 PM »
Quote
Most days I donít get to sit down even one time.  If I am not getting things ready, I am washing dishes, waiting on customers, cleaning things or making pizza.  You would be surprised how many pans and other items get dirty in a days time.

Oh believe me I do.  ;D

I worked in Bakeries, Restaurants and Hotels and I know how fast things get dirty, supplies need to be restocked and the like.

I mentioned the Thermokool option just as an idea. It can't hold a 10-15 lb dough, I know that. However, it can hold the amount of starter you might use. The rest of the proofing could be done in the way you do on a regular basis.

But just like you, I wouldn't be comfortable having it on unsupervised overnight. Things nowadays are mostly made in China and we know what that quality is like. Isn't there any American-made quality out there anymore without paying an arm and a leg for it?? I digress.

Peter,

I am wondering if Marco referred to a Neapolitan dough or a pizza dough in general? If it's in a general sense, Norma shouldn't have any problems establishing a temp for the dough to ferment given she has the proper equipment. But then again, 10-15 lbs of dough pose a challenge for a small stand at a market.


Norma,

All this aside, I think you're a trooper for wanting to be able to make the best pies possible and provide your customers with great quality. I'm in the Sales & Service field myself, albeit not food, but I know how tough it can be to satisfy some customers.

Keep at it and I'm sure with Peter's help, it'll be possible.  :chef:


P.S.: Come to think of it...that man needs a monument named after him!

Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #124 on: September 20, 2010, 07:46:04 AM »
Oh believe me I do.  ;D

I worked in Bakeries, Restaurants and Hotels and I know how fast things get dirty, supplies need to be restocked and the like.

I mentioned the Thermokool option just as an idea. It can't hold a 10-15 lb dough, I know that. However, it can hold the amount of starter you might use. The rest of the proofing could be done in the way you do on a regular basis.

But just like you, I wouldn't be comfortable having it on unsupervised overnight. Things nowadays are mostly made in China and we know what that quality is like. Isn't there any American-made quality out there anymore without paying an arm and a leg for it?? I digress.

Peter,

I am wondering if Marco referred to a Neapolitan dough or a pizza dough in general? If it's in a general sense, Norma shouldn't have any problems establishing a temp for the dough to ferment given she has the proper equipment. But then again, 10-15 lbs of dough pose a challenge for a small stand at a market.


Norma,

All this aside, I think you're a trooper for wanting to be able to make the best pies possible and provide your customers with great quality. I'm in the Sales & Service field myself, albeit not food, but I know how tough it can be to satisfy some customers.

Keep at it and I'm sure with Peter's help, it'll be possible.  :chef:


P.S.: Come to think of it...that man needs a monument named after him!




Mike,

This is one post of Marco about making dough that is left to cold ferment.  He says in that post that proper cold fermentation is quite complicated to do and more difficult to obtain good results.  He also says that if you would like to make a good dough in the fridge, than you need to develop a dough with a flour of different enzymatic activity and use different salts quantities and a different hydration.  He goes on to state that the dough would need to be in the fridge for 3 or 4 days for a cold ferment.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3057.msg25932.html#msg25932

Thanks for saying I am a trooper, for wanting to make the best possible pies at market.  My customers really arenít that hard to satisfy and like myself a little while ago, most donít know what a good pizza tastes like.  I do have some customers that appreciate a good crust.  I make mulitiple batches of 15 or 10 lbs, all depending on the weather and the time of year.  I have a friend that has a brother, that operates an Irish Pub in Lancaster.  He been after me to open a pizza business in Lancaster, because he said there isnít any good pizzas there.  I told him I am too old to open a pizza business.  He remembers when they did have good pizzas in Lancaster.  Recently he said also his brother might be thinking of opening a pizza business and asked if I could help him develop a good pizza.  I said I would help where I could, but I am not an expert on developing a good pizza.  :-D I have enough problems with trying new ideas. Who knows if they will go though with that or not.  My friend owns a flower business and helps his brother at the Irish Pub.

I can see with you being in the sales field, that customers can be hard to deal with. 

You are also right that Peter needs a monument named after him.  All the help he has given so freely has helped so many people.  We should start another appreciation thread.

Thanks,

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Matthew

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #125 on: September 20, 2010, 08:11:54 AM »
Norma,
I have an MR-148; don't waste your money.  The capacity is way to small & the temperature is always off by about 5-7 degrees.  I rely on a digital thermometer & then adjust the temperature on the Mr-148 according to that.  The biggest container that will fit in there is a 4QT round Cambro.  The diameter must be less than 9" in order for the door to close.  What I use for cool fermentation is a wine fridge.  I disconnected the white wine peltier & run the whole unit in the red wine zone which holds extremely stable temperatures.  The temperature range in this zone is 60-64 degrees.  For proofing focaccia & breads in warmer temperatures I use another proofing chamber that I made using 2 large storage containers using an aquarium heater.  I have managed to arrange it so that I can have 2 focaccia pans in there at the same time.  I use a damp cloth inside to increase the humidity if need be.

As far as using a starter goes; there are starters out there that peak in 3.5-5hours.  I know of an Alaskan one & I'm sure that there is many more out there.  Peter made a good point; you're not catering to an elite crowd so I'm sure your current pizza is better than anything they've tried.  Personally, I would forgo the starter all together for the market unless you're into making yourself nuts.

Matt

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #126 on: September 20, 2010, 08:33:02 AM »
Matt,

Thanks for telling me about your MR-148.  I can understand by using your wine fridge, you can get the right fermenting temperatures. I donít even know about different types of wines or never even tasted a good wine. Just like pizza making, even at my age, I still have a lot to learn. I did see your proofing chamber in another thread and have seen the amazing breads and focaccia you make.

I know I am not catering to an elite crowd.  Some customers are tourists, customers that regularly come to market, and some are just people that happen to venture into my area at market. 

I have always been adventurous in anything I do.  I am not trying to make myself nuts, but can see your point in how far I might need to go in understanding how a starter for the dough at market might work out.  You have learned a lot about using starters and you have achieved success with using starters.  My hat is off to you.   :chef:  You have come a long way in a short while.

Thanks for you help and knowledge,

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Matthew

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #127 on: September 20, 2010, 08:41:22 AM »
Norma,
I still have alot to learn & have I have been doing alot of experimenting behind closed doors lately.  Although it's still extremely early I have something planned & will post something when the time is right. ;)

Matt

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #128 on: September 20, 2010, 09:24:32 AM »
Norma,
I still have alot to learn & have I have been doing alot of experimenting behind closed doors lately.  Although it's still extremely early I have something planned & will post something when the time is right. ;)

Matt

Matt,

I guess we will never get finished learning.  That is what makes pizza making so mysterious and fun at the same time.  Great to hear you still are experimenting behind closed doors.  8)  I will be looking forward to the time you post and be able to learn from your posts.  ;D  You are also amazing in all you try.  :)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #129 on: September 20, 2010, 10:14:19 AM »
I used the ďpoppy seedĒ trick that Peter explained to me for seeing how much a dough has risen at Reply 14 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg72360.html#msg72360

and referenced me to at

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.msg59335.html#msg59335

Since the measurements on this dough ball arenít 1 1/4" as of this morning, it looks like this dough ball will still be good until tomorrow.  At a bit more than 1 1/4" the dough should have doubled by half.  I am going to use this ďpoppy seedĒ trick to monitor all my dough balls for experimental purposes, if I remember to place them on the dough balls.  :-D This dough ball seems to be rising slower than my last attempt, but then I didnít use the ďpoppy seedĒ trick. 

Pictures below of how dough ball looks this morning.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #130 on: September 20, 2010, 11:52:23 AM »
Peter,

I am wondering if Marco referred to a Neapolitan dough or a pizza dough in general? If it's in a general sense, Norma shouldn't have any problems establishing a temp for the dough to ferment given she has the proper equipment. But then again, 10-15 lbs of dough pose a challenge for a small stand at a market.


Mike,

Marco discussed various types of doughs for various purposes but when he spoke of using a Crisceto of up to 5% of the formula water, he was referring to the Neapolitan pizza dough. When I made Neapolitan style doughs, I basically followed the 5% rule. However, for other types of doughs using a starter culture, I used preferment quantities that were much higher than 5%--more like 15% (of the flour weight) or more depending on the room temperature. That number came to me from work that member bakerboy (Barry), a professional baker, conducted and discussed on the forum.

As long as one is at the mercy of room temperatures that cannot be controlled, there will be problems trying to make a dough that can be reliably and consistently reproduced and be usable exactly at the required times--when customers line up for pizza slices. The pizzaioli in Naples learn through years of hands-on experience how to contend with seasonal changes and how to make adjustments to the amounts of Crisceto or commercial yeast to use, the hydration value to use, the water temperature to use, and the amount of salt to use and, in so doing, have the doughs ready when customers show up. But even then, they have had to devise systems that allow them to successfully contend with temperature variations. For example, as Marco noted at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12548/topicseen.html#msg12548, Da Michele Antica Costa in Naples use cellars in the summer to get cooler fermentation temperatures. So, even if Norma decided to take a sabbatical from her work at market and go to Naples to learn from the masters there, what she might learn may still not help her contend with temperatures at market that can reach as high as 99 degrees F in the summer and 44 degrees F in the winter. I might also add that Norma might also come up short on guidance on how to use natural leavening systems in a varying room temperature environment since, to the best of my knowledge, there may not be any well-known pizzeria in Naples that is using such a natural leavening system anymore. I believe that they are pretty much all using commercial yeast.

I still believe that Norma's best chance at using her Ischia culture at market is the three-stage method I mentioned earlier. Even then, the room temperature bulk fermentation part will be subject to seasonal variations that will require Norma to act like a Neapolitan pizzaiolo and make the necessary compensatory adjustments.

Peter

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #131 on: September 20, 2010, 12:40:19 PM »
Peter,

I saw after doing some searching that you tried a dough with a preferment amount of 20% at reply 180 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13971.html#msg13971

Although that dough was not made with KASL, I find it interesting that you used a salt value similar to what I am now using for this current formulation.  You used a  higher oil factor, too.  I can understand why you used dairy whey to help brown you crust, because you were baking in a home oven, with Caputo. You said in that post that your rim was not bready.  Your dough wasnít cold fermented, but I find what you posted interesting.

I will be interested in seeing what happens with my current experiment tomorrow. If this dough ball doesnít change too much until tomorrow, I will decide how long I have to let it warm-up.  There are so many posts on this forum and it is hard to know what to try, but at least members have posted on what they have tried and what works.

I also believe that a three-stage method might possibly work out, if I can get all this figured out.

Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #132 on: September 20, 2010, 01:30:26 PM »
Norma,
I have an MR-148; don't waste your money.  The capacity is way to small & the temperature is always off by about 5-7 degrees.  I rely on a digital thermometer & then adjust the temperature on the Mr-148 according to that.  The biggest container that will fit in there is a 4QT round Cambro.  The diameter must be less than 9" in order for the door to close.  What I use for cool fermentation is a wine fridge.  I disconnected the white wine peltier & run the whole unit in the red wine zone which holds extremely stable temperatures.  The temperature range in this zone is 60-64 degrees.  For proofing focaccia & breads in warmer temperatures I use another proofing chamber that I made using 2 large storage containers using an aquarium heater.  I have managed to arrange it so that I can have 2 focaccia pans in there at the same time.  I use a damp cloth inside to increase the humidity if need be.

As far as using a starter goes; there are starters out there that peak in 3.5-5hours.  I know of an Alaskan one & I'm sure that there is many more out there.  Peter made a good point; you're not catering to an elite crowd so I'm sure your current pizza is better than anything they've tried.  Personally, I would forgo the starter all together for the market unless you're into making yourself nuts.

Matt

Norma,

Matt has a few good points.

And after everything you said and how difficult it is to work with a starter at your market stand, I would have to second what Matt said and might consider canning the idea but that is of course up to you.

My suggestion in regards to the MR-138 was simply an example to show how one could go about it but in your case the capacity isn't sufficient. And like Matt said, I might look into those starters that have a shorter activation time or peak times.

Quote
I still believe that Norma's best chance at using her Ischia culture at market is the three-stage method I mentioned earlier. Even then, the room temperature bulk fermentation part will be subject to seasonal variations that will require Norma to act like a Neapolitan pizzaiolo and make the necessary compensatory adjustments.

Peter,

Let's just hope that Norma, after her project concludes, will still have all her hair and her sanity because there were times where I came close to pulling out all my hair regarding starters  :-D

But like Norma said, if there are such drastic temp differences it does pose a problem indeed, even if she would compensate for it one day but then have to do it again the next. I'm wondering how the temps are once we reach fall and winter? The colder temps might make it easier for her to conduct the experiment at her market facility.



Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #133 on: September 20, 2010, 04:45:43 PM »
Mike,

I do agree that Matt has a few good points.  I donít know that much about starters as of this date, but I am willing to learn and do experiments.  I am not ready to can the idea at the present time. 

I know your ideas about the MR-138 were a suggestion and I appreciated your suggestion.  :)  I might have to look into the other starters or go a different route.  I wonít know that until I have tried different experiments. 

I also hope I have all my hair and sanity when I am finished with these experiments.  I can believe there were times you almost came close to pulling out your hair regarding starters.  :-D I am only beginning to understand them. 

The temperatures at market are coming down more now in our area.  Today it was only 72 degrees F at market.  Winter will be a different story. 

I read this article a little while ago and thought just how hard Anthony Mangieri must have worked to help this man to learn to make his pizza. Of course Anthony Mangieri was a paid consultant to help make Undiciís pizza. I read in another article about how they tried out recipes for dough over 100 times, before they got it right.

http://www.brianpaschnj.com/20091124-best-pizza-new-jersey/

I donít know where the other article is now, but it said how many times Anthony Mangieri and
Undiciís owner, Victor Rallo tried to make a special pizza for Undiciís.
I sure am not Anthony Mangieri or anything close to him, but will try to see what I can achieve.
I am one determined bugger too, and wonít give up very easily.  I can understand this approach with the Ischia starter might now be the best way to go about making a better crust flavor and it might not work out.  I did have many problems with the preferment Lehmann dough when I first started out with it, but learned how to control the issues with that dough.

Norma
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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #134 on: September 20, 2010, 04:55:11 PM »
Mike,

I do agree that Matt has a few good points.  I donít know that much about starters as of this date, but I am willing to learn and do experiments.  I am not ready to can the idea at the present time. 

I know your ideas about the MR-138 were a suggestion and I appreciated your suggestion.  :)  I might have to look into the other starters or go a different route.  I wonít know that until I have tried different experiments. 

I also hope I have all my hair and sanity when I am finished with these experiments.  I can believe there were times you almost came close to pulling out your hair regarding starters.  :-D I am only beginning to understand them. 

The temperatures at market are coming down more now in our area.  Today it was only 72 degrees F at market.  Winter will be a different story. 

I read this article a little while ago and thought just how hard Anthony Mangieri must have worked to help this man to learn to make his pizza. Of course Anthony Mangieri was a paid consultant to help make Undiciís pizza. I read in another article about how they tried out recipes for dough over 100 times, before they got it right.

http://www.brianpaschnj.com/20091124-best-pizza-new-jersey/

I donít know where the other article is now, but it said how many times Anthony Mangieri and
Undiciís owner, Victor Rallo tried to make a special pizza for Undiciís.
I sure am not Anthony Mangieri or anything close to him, but will try to see what I can achieve.
I am one determined bugger too, and wonít give up very easily.  I can understand this approach with the Ischia starter might now be the best way to go about making a better crust flavor and it might not work out.  I did have many problems with the preferment Lehmann dough when I first started out with it, but learned how to control the issues with that dough.

Norma


Norma,

You certainly are one motivated and determined gal, I gotta say!  ;D

I will follow your endeavor and am looking forward to your final results and findings.

And please, whatever you do, don't reach up...leave that hair alone, you hear me??  :chef:
Mike

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #135 on: September 20, 2010, 05:02:05 PM »
Norma,

You certainly are one motivated and determined gal, I gotta say!  ;D

I will follow your endeavor and am looking forward to your final results and findings.

And please, whatever you do, don't reach up...leave that hair alone, you hear me??  :chef:

Mike,

Thanks for saying you will follow this endeavor and look forward to the results and findings.  At least I won't try to pull my hair out.   :-D  I would let this project alone before I would do that.  ::)

Norma
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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #136 on: September 20, 2010, 07:17:29 PM »
Mike,

These are the articles I was looking for.  I forgot how many pizzas they made before they had success, but in these articles it said it took two weeks and 500 pizzas before they succeeded.

http://rumson.undicirestaurant.com/about/the-best-pizza-nj-rumson-undici-restaurant/

http://www.pizzanj.net/tag/pizza-reviews/

http://www.prlog.org/10470159-how-new-jerseys-best-pizza-napoletana-came-to-be.html

Norma
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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #137 on: September 20, 2010, 07:42:22 PM »
Norma,

Great articles! Thanks for posting them.

Quote
According to Rallo, it was no small change fine tuning the formula for his new pizza.  ďWe started on a Monday and it was almost a disaster, but we quickly learned from our mistakes and were back at it on Tuesday.  After about two weeks and 500 pizzas, we were ready to make the change and were confident everyone would appreciate our new authentic Pizza Napoletana.Ē

This is always amazing to me...how such few ingredients can create a big challenge in order to find the right balance. Goes to show that even AM had his work cut out for him.

By the way, that's another thing...when I checked the reviews on Yelp earlier on UPN, people are not getting it, it looks like. The guy's just opened for less than a week and those "reviewers" already ripping on him.

One thing I noticed, though, was that the pies made at Undici do look different than the pies from UPN. Fascinating.
Mike

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http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #138 on: September 20, 2010, 09:03:13 PM »
Norma,

Great articles! Thanks for posting them.

This is always amazing to me...how such few ingredients can create a big challenge in order to find the right balance. Goes to show that even AM had his work cut out for him.

By the way, that's another thing...when I checked the reviews on Yelp earlier on UPN, people are not getting it, it looks like. The guy's just opened for less than a week and those "reviewers" already ripping on him.

One thing I noticed, though, was that the pies made at Undici do look different than the pies from UPN. Fascinating.

Mike,

Your welcome about the articles.  It is also amazing to me that pizza can have so many variables and can turn out so different.  I guess Anthony Mangieri did have to work very hard to come up with a good dough for Undiciís pizza.  I donít know if any members have ever eaten at Undiciís to compare their pizza with Anthonyís, but would be interested in knowing how much different the pizzas are.  I donít think he would give his formula to any other person. It is fascinating that Undiciís pizza and UPNís pizza look different.  Anthony does know how to make pizza and has studied for awhile.  I am sure he could make many kinds of pizza.  Did you know Anthony did have a pizza business in NJ before opening UPN in NY?

I donít believe people should be ripping him already.  Maybe they havenít even tried his style of pizza before. 

I just wanted to show these articles so you could understand that even for a professional like Anthony Mangieri, he did have problems coming up with a good formula for Undiciís.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Essen1

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #139 on: September 20, 2010, 10:14:37 PM »
Quote
Did you know Anthony did have a pizza business in NJ before opening UPN in NY?

Yes. He started out as a bread baker before switching over to pizza and had his first pizza place in Jersey but I forgot where.

I don't think, either, he'd give out his formula but then again his formula might not even work in Undici's oven since, I could imagine, one WFO differs from the next. So the recipe that works for AM might not work for anyone else.

But if I'd hit a home run with my formula I don't think I'd give it out, either.  ;D  Have a long way to go still.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

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