Author Topic: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula  (Read 37074 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #150 on: September 22, 2010, 06:22:24 AM »
Norma,

I think I have some possible explanations for your results. However, to give you a complete response, can you tell me how you came to the conclusion that you experienced a gum line, including what test you conducted to determine that you had a gum line as opposed to just a plain old gummy crust? And was the gummy characteristic throughout the entire pizza or just the center?

Peter


Peter,

When I taste or bake a new kind of pizza, that I never made before, I usually tear it apart after eating some to see what it looks like.  The gum line I thought was in this pizza, was just under the sauce and cheese.  The rim didnít have any gummy or gum line to my knowledge.  I didnít ever really experience a gum line (or what I thought was a gum line in any other pizza I had baked before) Since this pizza was moister in the rim, then other pizzas I had tried, I didnít know if that was the reason I thought there was a gum line or not.  What confused me was the bottom and top of the pizza seemed baked enough.  Another thing I had wondered was, since this skin with just the sauce was left longer than normal to sit on the peel,  (because we had to wait on customers) it this could have also contributed to what I thought was a gum line.  I should have taken a picture of when I pulled some of the cheese of one slice to be able to show you what I thought was a gum line.  I didnít know of other tests to do, to see if I really had a gum line.  Since this pizza was baked in my regular deck oven at normal baking times, I thought that usually only gum lines were produced from high bake temperatures.  I still have a lot to learn about pizzas and know there can be some moistness under the sauce when making a pizza, but this pizza was different than other ones I had tried before.

I donít know if you can magnify DCO4883, DCO04884 and DCO35889, but on my computer, I can see what I thought was a gum line.

There were a few pictures missing from the beginning when I took this dough ball out of the deli case to warm-up.  Those pictures were of a bug Steve found when he was outside for a minute.  He knows I am interested in nature and bugs and found me a different bug.  Of course then we had to examine the bug for a little while and of course I had to take a few pictures.    The one picture didnít turn out but this is the bug we had to examine.  This isnít related to this pizza, but I just thought I would have to post it, because it was so different and also if I would have kept up with my other regular pizzas, I might not had the troubles with this pizza sticking to the peel.  I spend too much time examining things.  :-D

Picture of bug

Norma


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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #151 on: September 22, 2010, 10:43:03 AM »
Norma,

The reason why I asked you about the gum line matter and the method you used to diagnose it was because I couldn't recall that you had ever had a gum line problem before with any of your pizzas. Also, there are many possible causes of a gum line, which is more of a surface phenomenon, and it is often confused with a gumminess or partially-unbaked dough problem that can permeate a good part of the thickness of a finished crust. Based on the gum line tests that Tom Lehmann recommends, for example, at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7000&p=46894&hilit=#p46894, it appears that you may have properly conducted a gum line test and identified a gum line condition.

Initially, I thought that if you had an actual gum line problem it was because of either one of two possible causes. The first was that the gluten structure may have been weakened by the action of enzymes (protease) to the point where the dough skin was unable to support the sauce and cheese and that resulted in a gum line. The second possible cause was that, in opening up the dough ball, which you indicated you accomplished with ease, perhaps you ended up with an overly thin center that ended up causing a gum line. Both of these conditions are quite common causes of gum lines. It is still possible that one or both were implicated in your gum line condition but when you mentioned that you pre-sauced the dough skin and let it sit unattended for a while, that led me to believe that that was probably the cause of the gum line you experienced. Usually when a pizza operator finds it necessary to pre-sauce skins for any reason, it is recommended that the skins be brushed with oil before applying the sauce. That creates a barrier between the skin and the sauce and prevents or limits the absorption of the water in the sauce by the skin. Otherwise, a gum line becomes very likely. I think that may have happened inadvertently in your case. The only way to determine if pre-saucing and leaving the dough skin unattended was the cause in your case is to repeat the experiment in the normal manner to see if the gum line condition resurfaces.

Apart from the above, I think that your dough may have been fermented too long even though you did not have any problems handling the dough. If I am correct on this, that would also help explain the reduced crust coloration. The proximate cause of the reduced coloration may have been an excess of acid production (a low pH). My recollection is that Tom Lehmann has said that an excessive amount of acid can make it difficult for a pizza crust to brown during baking, requiring a longer bake in order to develop more color. I believe he also said that this condition was common with sourdoughs. I think I should be able to find where he discussed this matter in one of his PMQTT posts so that you can read his comments yourself.

As far as your next possible experiment is concerned, I think I would use the same dough formulation but reduce the bulk rise time at room temperature and extend the cold fermentation part of the overall fermentation. By doing this, hopefully you will slow down the overall fermentation process and reduce the acid production and possibly also the action of the enzymes that can weaken the gluten structure. There are other possible changes that one might use, for example, adding sugar to the dough or using diastatic malt or adjusting the hydration of your preferment, but I do not advocate making multiple changes at one time, even though there may be a great temptation to do so in order to leapfrog the process to save time. I would rather take one step at a time, see what eventuates, and then assess the situation anew once the results are in. I think you also learn more by this approach and avoid confusing yourself with competing effects that can become very hard, and sometimes impossible, to disentangle, given the complexity of biochemical and physical aspects of naturally leavened doughs.

Peter

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #152 on: September 22, 2010, 11:07:13 AM »
Peter,

You are right that I never noticed a problem with a gum line before in my pizzas.  Thanks for explaining what might have caused the gum line. Thatís interesting that you think my dough might have been fermented too long and that could help to explain why there wasnít enough coloration in the crust. Since Tom Lehmann said that condition is more common with sourdoughs, I wonder if I use my pH meter in my next attempt if this might be able to help me understand if the dough pH is okay.  I will try less time in a bulk ferment for my next attempt and see what happens with that dough, before I try anything else.  I already know that each variable can bring changes.  I can understand I will need to see what happens with each change if I am ever going to be able to understand what can produce good results

I also searched this morning about gum lines and read this post from Tom Lehmann.  http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003september_october/tom_lehmann.php  Since I didnít really know if I had a gum line or not, I wasnít sure of what might have caused one, but could understand that it might have been the sauce that might have been too thin or sitting to long on the pie, that might have caused what I thought looked like a gum line, if the sauce had migrated into the dough.  I did do a search at PMQ think tank this morning also.

I fed my Ischia starter again this morning and I am going to make two dough balls today with the same formula I used in my last attempt.  I am going to make one dough with Caputo Blue Bag and one dough with KASL.  I might let this dough room ferment for a little longer, since I would like to try this dough on Friday. At least it would give me more understanding of how the Ischia starter works in a dough. Steve invited me to another bake in his WFO on Friday.  As of right now, I am not sure if I will be able to make that bake because I start job training for my new part-time job this afternoon and donít know what my training schedule will be.  After I finish the training then I will know more what my regular hours are.  It would be interesting to see how these two doughs balls would bake in Steveís WFO. I know this formulation wonít bake the same way in Steveís WFO, but I would be curious to see how much difference there is in a WFO. If I have to work on Friday, then I will just freeze the dough balls and give them to Steve to try. 

Early this morning I had to take my furry friend for his operation on his two hind legs cruciate ligaments.  I am not sure when he is going to get out of the hospital either and know I will have to learn to do therapy on him and give him shots in his hind legs, so this might also determine if I can go to Steveís home or not, to bake these doughs.

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #153 on: September 22, 2010, 11:20:29 AM »
Norma,

After I last posted, I researched the archives at PMQTT and found the Tom Lehmann post on acid production, in a Q&A session with D-Laurios starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9214&p=64013&hilit=#p64011. You might also want to read the entire thread since it contains other useful information.

I also did a quick search of the PMQTT archives using the keywords "gum line" (two words, without the quotes) and there is a lot of information on that subject, as you may also have discovered. Sometime when I am in a studying frame of mind I may read the relevant posts, if only to expand and solidify my knowledge and understanding of gum lines.

I was aware of the fact that an overly thin sauce can also cause a gum line but since I assumed that you were using your regular sauce I did not think to raise that possibility with you. But it is good to know anyway.

Peter

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #154 on: September 22, 2010, 11:57:06 AM »
Peter,

Since Tom Lehmann says a lower pH makes it more difficult to brown the crust in the baking process, what is the optimum pH of a sourdough crust supposed to be?  Maybe with using my pH meter I will be able to see from week to week what my experimental doughs pHís are.  I see Tom Lehmann also posted that a shorter fermentation time will also help with crust color as you posted before.  Does that apply to bulk ferment or just shorter fermentation times?  The last attempt of the crust yesterday as far as the crispness in the crust, was just about right in my opinion.  I still donít know if the sauce sitting on the skin longer did contribute to the gum line, but I was in a hurry to add more water to my sauce shortly before we baked that pizza.  The amount of thinness of my sauce up to a certain point on my regular pizzas doesnít seem to make any difference, but it might make a difference on a sourdough crust.  I also think that pizza might have stuck to the peel, because the sauce might have been too thin.  I canít be sure though, until I do more experiments.

I also did the search on gum line at PMQ think tank.  If you find any other posts, where I can see information about gum lines let me know.  Right now, after thinking about it, I think my gum line might have come from the sauce.

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #155 on: September 22, 2010, 01:20:22 PM »
Norma,

It is very difficult to say what the optimum pH is for a naturally-leavened dough. The pH value is dictated to a great extent by the fermentation temperature. If you were to use only a room temperature fermentation, it might be possible with your particular leavening system to state a range of pH values over time. But, if, as in your case, you use a combination of room temperature fermentation, cold fermentation and a temper at room temperature, the pH values over the same time period will most likely be higher, because of the introduction of the cold fermentation period. Also, where the dough will be from the standpoint of pH over the entire fermentation period will depend on the condition of the preferment (poolish in your case) at the outset. If it too acidic to begin with, then that will lower the final pH at the time of baking. That is why Prof. Calvel says in his book The Taste of Bread to be sure to refresh the starter/preferment culture before using it (which, of course, you have been doing). If you have a pH meter, you might want to use it in your experiments and note the relevant values, particularly at the time the experimental doughs are to be used to make pizzas. If I had to venture a guess, a pH value of around 5 might be indicated at the time of baking. The range of pH values will, of course, be quite wide over the entire fermentation period. Since you did not experience any problems with oven spring from what you said, that would suggest that your dough pH perhaps was not out of line. It may have been more a lack of residual sugars to contribute adequately to crust coloration.

For background purposes, you might also want to read Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,853.msg7771/topicseen.html#msg7771, including the link to the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm. The portion of the theartisan.net article that you want to read is the section entitled "Acidification". That section recites a fair amount of material from Prof. Calvel's book The Taste of Bread. You will also note that the Acidification section talks about using malt extract (I believe that diastatic malt is intended) to reestablish the proper sugar balance. In his book, Prof. Calvel also suggests using sugar at 0.3-0.5% to restore that balance. As I noted earlier, I would like to see if you really need diastatic malt or sugar before adding them to your dough to get more residual sugars.

Another post where I discussed some of the above matters is Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8011.msg69043/topicseen.html#msg69043.

When Tom Lehmann talks about sugar helping with crust color, I believe that he is thinking of a shortened fermentation period (most likely a cold fermentation period) during which sugars in the dough, both added and natural, have not been completely exhausted. As such, they would be available to contribute to crust coloration. This position would be consistent with Tom's discussion at the PMQTT at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&hilit=#p26890.

Peter

« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 11:37:38 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #156 on: September 22, 2010, 09:04:20 PM »
Peter,

That is interesting to know that the pH over the entire fermentation period will depend on the condition of the preferment.  I will use my pH meter to see what the pH values are before I made the pizzas. The pH meter is a Cole Palmer meter and is decent to measure pH. That meter might be able to tell me something. 

I appreciate you referencing the links.  I never thought about sourdough starters being loaded with more acids even if they donít seem to acidic.

In the second article you referenced it said that a below pH coincides with a lack of residual sugars, which translates to a deficiency in oven-spring.and coloration.  It still makes me wonder why there was oven-spring without coloration, but I will read over this article more to try and understand all what goes into acidification.  I also see if there isnít enough residual sugar a good remedy would be to use malt extract, to reestablish the proper sugar balance.  I also would like to see first what more experiments produce, before I would add malt extract.

It makes me wonder if I would measure the pH of the starter before putting it into the dough, if that could help to know when the starter is at the right acidic level. 

Understanding all of this with using a starter is going to be challenge.

I did make my two doughs today.  One with Caputo and one with KASL.  I left them bulk ferment for 3 hours.  That might not help me understand what a starter will do in my deck oven, but might help me, by watching how that dough ferments.  I donít have to work on Friday, except for going to market to make my poolish, so if it doesnít rain, hopefully I will get to Steveís home to be able to try out the two dough balls in his WFO.  I will try to post pictures of those two dough balls tomorrow, after they have cold fermented for one day. 

I will make another dough ball on Friday.  Do you have any idea of how long I should try to room temperature ferment this next attempt before balling and cold fermenting?

Thanks for your help,

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #157 on: September 22, 2010, 09:53:51 PM »
Norma,

I don't think that it is necessary to fully understand the biochemistry of the natural Ischia poolish and dough. Getting the basics down--that is, the basic fermentation protocol--will be more important from a practical standpoint. I like to understand how and why things happen but that is so I can come up with possible solutions to problems that might arise.

I think it is possible for the pH to be in order and yet not get the desired degree of crust coloration. If the pH is too low, as can happen with a long room temperature fermentation, its relationship to the residual sugar can result in oven spring problems. However, after I posted last, I recalled that the dough skin you used to make the last pizza had sat on the peel for a while. During that time, the skin may have proofed and gained volume and height that might have helped with the oven spring. So, I suppose, it could have been possible that without that rise, the oven spring might have been compromised. Hopefully we will learn more with your next effort using the same dough formulation.

If only to satisfy my curiosity, I would be interested to see what values of pH you note with both the Ischia preferment and the dough at different stages, and especially at the point where the pizzas are to be made with the dough. Most doughs start at a pH of almost 6 and, depending on the fermentation protocol and temperature and other factors, can drop to below 5.

You are correct about the large number of organic acids that are formed during the fermentation of the dough. However, it is important to keep in mind that most of those acids are present in very small quantities. Acetic acid is the most dominant organic acid. The bacteria (lactobacillus) also perform to provide lactic acid. A good article on lactic acid fermentation in sourdough, if you can slog through it and come out alive, is at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough.

On the matter of the duration of the bulk fermentation of the dough you plan to make on Friday, can you remind me of how long your last bulk fermentation was?

Peter

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #158 on: September 22, 2010, 10:43:33 PM »
Peter,

Hopefully I will learn more in my next attempt.  The dough didnít sit on the peel that long.  It was only about 5 minutes.  When I opened the dough it did have small bubbles all though the skin.

I have my pH meter at market, so maybe I can bring it home to make my dough Friday and be able to measure the pH of the Ischia preferment before I mix it into the other ingredients.  If I can keep all the numbers of how acidic the Ischia starter is before I put it into the rest of the ingredients, maybe it might tell us something. I will also try to take each pH level before I make a pizza.  I will take note of what you posted about most doughs start out with a pH of 6.

I will look read over the lactic acid fermentation in sourdough in the next few days.  Right now my mind is tried from trying to learn all the new things on my part-time job. I need my mind fresh to even be able to read all what is posted about lactic acid fermentation.  :-D  I am always interested is learning something new about sourdoughs.  Thanks for that link.

In my last attempt I let that dough bulk ferment for 5 hours.

Norma


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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #159 on: September 23, 2010, 07:55:53 AM »

These are pictures of the two dough balls that I made yesterday.  They havenít been cold fermented for 24 hrs.  What I found interesting when I made these two dough balls with the exact same formula yesterday was the Caputo dough seemed more sticky.  I guess that is because of the lower protein content of the Caputo flour.  The poppy seeds havenít move since yesterday.  I am going to go to market this morning and get my pH meter to measure what the pH is on the doughs.  I mixed both of these doughs in the Kitchen Aid mixer.  The Ischia starter was put into the water, then put into the mixer, before the flour (mixed with salt) then mixed on speed 1, before adding the oil last.  Another thing that has me puzzled about the Caputo dough is when I balled it yesterday it seemed so smooth.  Now it looks rougher than the KASL dough.

First two pictures are of Caputo dough and second two pictures are of the dough that was made with KASL.

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #160 on: September 23, 2010, 08:46:31 AM »
In my last attempt I let that dough bulk ferment for 5 hours.

Norma,

It is difficult to be precise on how long to let the new dough ferment at room temperature because of all of the variables. However, I think you want to see some signs of fermentation, such as volume expansion and/or fermentation bubbles, before cold fermenting the dough. If the conditions are the same as when you made your last dough, you might want to check the new dough at about 3 1/2-4 hours, or even sooner, to see if the dough shows signs of fermentation. The objective is to shorten the bulk fermentation period and replace the difference with cold fermentation.

Peter

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #161 on: September 23, 2010, 11:42:01 AM »
Norma,

It is difficult to be precise on how long to let the new dough ferment at room temperature because of all of the variables. However, I think you want to see some signs of fermentation, such as volume expansion and/or fermentation bubbles, before cold fermenting the dough. If the conditions are the same as when you made your last dough, you might want to check the new dough at about 3 1/2-4 hours, or even sooner, to see if the dough shows signs of fermentation. The objective is to shorten the bulk fermentation period and replace the difference with cold fermentation.

Peter

I can understand the objective is to shorten the bulk fermentation time and replace that difference with the cold ferment.

I will watch the new dough to see what happens, when I mix it tomorrow, and then decide when to ball and cold ferment the dough. I want to ball and cold ferment in less time to see what will happen.  I will also check the pH of the Ischia starter before using it.  All the conditions should be the same as when I made my last attempt.  It now is hotter in my area so the air-conditioner is on again. 

I had to run some errands and picked up the pH meter from market.  I took the pH of the Caputo dough and it is 5.41 and the KASL dough is 5.30. I found that interesting because the two doughs were made back to back, but just with different flours. I also decided to take the pH of my tap water and it was 7.70.  I then took the pH of the water I get filled in gallon jugs, which I always use to make my doughs and the pH of the jug water was 7.37.

I am going to change a variable in my next attempt at the dough tomorrow.  I had used Real Salt in all my experiments up until today.  Since I want to be able to see if any Ischia doughs might work at market, I am now going to start using the Mortonís Kosher salt tomorrow.

Pictures below

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #162 on: September 24, 2010, 08:00:44 AM »
I removed the Ischia starter from the refrigerator this morning a took the pH of the starter, before I fed it.  The pH of the Ischia starter was 3.88.  I also took the Caputo dough pH and now it is 4.66.  The KASL dough pH is 4.89. It surprised me on how much the pH has gone down on both of the doughs. I also measured the poppy seeds and they are both 1 1/8 inches apart on both of the doughs.  The bottom of both dough do have more bubbles than yesterday. I donít know what these numbers are going to be able to help with, but will take the pH of the Ischia starter after it more active after I feed it.

Picture of pH of Ischia starter.

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #163 on: September 24, 2010, 10:40:54 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for posting the pH numbers. They are interesting to see and assess. I would have expected the Ischia starter to have lower pH numbers because of its high hydration (100%), which speeds up the prefermentation process. However, once the Ischia preferment is added to a much greater amount of dough with a much lower formula hydration (a total formula hydration of around 61% in your case), I would expect the pH of the final dough to decline during its fermentation but at a lower rate. I originally guessed a final pH value of around 5, and some subsequent research said that the optimum pH for the lactobacillus was 5, but there is no reason why the numbers can't go lower. However, if they get too low, that can cause problems, as we earlier discussed.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 11:20:52 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #164 on: September 24, 2010, 11:34:58 AM »

Peter,

I sure donít understand all this with using an Ischia starter when sourdough has a lactobacilli and then them eating the sugars that are available, but think that it is temperature related to producing acetic acid though the enzyme activity of the yeast.  I would think that more sugars would be available at lower room ferment temperatures than higher temperatures.  Just by watching two same doughs with different kinds of flour, I can see a difference in the way the Ischia starter is behaving in terms of pH. I am also trying to understand that although the same amount of flours were used in the doughs, since the Caputo dough seemed more hydrated, if that is why the pH numbers are changing different than the KASL numbers. I am also curious since these dough are dropping so much in pH is they are having enough residual sugars to maintain the cells inside the yeast, to be able to have a successful bake.

I am ready to used the Ischia starter to make a dough.  I didnít take the pH of the starter right now, but will take it before I mix it in with the other ingredients.  I will also take the pH of the finished dough, after the finished dough is bulk fermented, and then in the next few days will also take the pH.  You are much better than I am at understanding what this numbers mean or donít mean.  I will post the other numbers soon.

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #165 on: September 24, 2010, 01:00:31 PM »
The pH of the Ischia starter was 3.73 before I mixed it into the other ingredients.  The pH of the final dough was 5.77.  I did use Kosher salt today.  The final dough temperature was 78 degrees  F.   Sorry in the final dough (in the picture), it can be seen what the numbers read.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 01:02:25 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #166 on: September 24, 2010, 01:13:51 PM »
Norma,

I don't have an explanation at this point for why the Caputo dough and the KASL doughs have different pH readings. There are many differences between the two flours. For example, compared with the KASL flour, the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is milled differently, has a lower protein content (and maybe even a different quality of protein), a lower rated absorption value, and is unmalted. It's possible that you sped up the fermentation process of the Caputo dough by using a hydration value that was the same as you used for the KASL. A fairer comparison might have been to use a hydration value for the Caputo dough that was closer to its rated absorption value. In the final analysis, what is likely to be more important, and possibly more useful, is to know what the pH numbers are when time comes to bake the pizzas.

You are correct that more sugars are likely to be released at lower temperatures than higher temperatures. That is because the amylase enzymes that break down damaged starch to simple sugars have a sweet spot in terms of its performance. November discussed this subject, along with some other useful information, at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg37892.html#msg37892. You might also take a look at Reply 6 (and the links embedded therein) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10219.msg89830/topicseen.html#msg89830.

In the final analysis, especially where you will be working with room temperatures that are not under completely your control to make doughs that are only under your control in a limited way (in the refrigerator/cooler), the variation in results you achieve may be hard to analyze and comprehend and work backwards to teach you what to do with the next doughs with their own sets of variables. To succeed on a consistent basis, you will have to learn to operate more like an Italian pizzaiolo. You won't see them talking about pH values, the Arrhenius equation or any other esoteric and arcane aspects of sourdoughs that even the experts can't completely understand and agree on. Yet, a good pizzaiolo will know when he has achieved a final dough with the desired characteristics.

Peter


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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #167 on: September 24, 2010, 04:00:10 PM »
Peter,

You are probably right about the Caputo flour, using a hydration closer to its absorption value.  I am taking both the KASL and Caputo doughs over to Steveís today to bake in his WFO.  I know that wonít tell me anything about how these doughs would bake in my deck oven, but I will take the pH before the bake.  It is very warm in our area today and until I get to Steveís home, and then do the bake of these doughs, they are probably going to ferment more.

November sure knows what happens inside dough.  I only wish I could have that much knowledge.  As he says it is a delicate balance what goes into the dough and then when to use the dough.  Itís also interesting what pizzanapoletana had posted about mixing dough and oxygen.  He said, after all the oxygen is used up from the air (or oxygen) then the dough starts to ferment.  I always thought when the dough was mixed it then started the fermentation process.  He also talks about using malt to increase enzymatic activity in the dough.  That Arrhenius equation is way over my head. 

I doubt if I will ever learn to operate like a Italian pizzaiolo, but will try to understand what I can.

I did measure the pH on the bulk fermented dough after I balled it and it was still 5.77.  I will watch it over the next few days.  The dough was bulk fermented for 3 1/2 hours.   

Thanks for the links,

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #168 on: September 24, 2010, 05:43:50 PM »
Norma,

November also discussed how yeast makes use of oxygen at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33947.html#msg33947. You might also find his post at Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg48023/topicseen.html#msg48023 of interest.

One of the most interesting things I learned from November about how yeast uses oxygen is that increasing the oxygen to the yeast does not meaningfully increase cellular respiration. I always thought that getting more oxygen to the yeast was a good thing. I even had an exchange on this subject with member pieguy at Replies 167, 169 and 171 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13846.html#msg13846. As it turns out, it looks like pieguy was correct. You can see my summary on this subject after my exchanges with November at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7022.msg60428/topicseen.html#msg60428.

Peter

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #169 on: September 24, 2010, 09:38:40 PM »
Peter,

Novemberís posts are very helpful.  What I find interesting is his posting of if you want more acetic acid to aerate the dough more and ferment at temperatures of 86 degrees F.  He also posted to get a good balance of acetic and lactic acids try cooler temperatures for longer periods and lactic acid levels arenít affected by the amount of oxygen as much as acetic acid.  I also see how you learned from November about how yeast uses oxygen. 

I didnít know if getting more oxygen to the yeast was a good thing or not, until I read the links you provided.  Thanks for the links.  I also there- in those links you provided that pizzanapoletana  posted, with the proper PH ratio and starter consistency, the yeast work much faster then the bacterias Is that true and does that also apply to making pizzas and not just bread?

I went to Steveís home and baked both of the KASL dough and the Caputo dough.  I am sure since they were baked in a WFO they came out much better than my deck oven.  The first pizza with KASL was baked at a higher temperature than the Caputo dough.  Steve was also trying some different experimental doughs and the first bake was the KASL dough.  The last bake was the Caputo dough.  In my opinion these pizzas turned out great.  They had a good taste in the crust and had nice oven spring.  Steve took the pHís of his doughs and I took the pHís of my doughs.  The Caputo doughs pH was 4.65 right before the bake and the KASL dough was 4.82 right before the bake. Steveís pHís were higher for his experimental doughs. The Caputo dough was much softer and it was harder to open, but not too bad.  The skin wanted to basically open itself.  I really enjoyed these pies from both of these doughs.

I did take a video of the Caputo pie baking in Steveís WFO.  After I upload that video, I will post it.

Pictures below of the KASL and Caputo pizzas,

Norma
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 09:44:51 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #170 on: September 24, 2010, 09:41:00 PM »
more pictures

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #171 on: September 24, 2010, 09:41:52 PM »
end of pictures

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #172 on: September 24, 2010, 11:09:54 PM »
Video of Caputo flour with Ischia starter pizza baking in Steveís WFO.  This pizza was the longest bake time of the four pies made this evening.



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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #173 on: September 25, 2010, 07:52:24 AM »
The dough I mixed yesterday and that is cold fermenting in the refrigerator has a pH reading of 5.34 this morning.

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #174 on: September 25, 2010, 09:52:29 AM »
I also there- in those links you provided that pizzanapoletana  posted, with the proper PH ratio and starter consistency, the yeast work much faster then the bacterias Is that true and does that also apply to making pizzas and not just bread?

Norma,

I believe the graph at http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/graph1.jpg, which came from a post by member djones148 at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8526.msg73739.html#msg73739, answers your question. Also, I would guess that the same phenomena are at work with pizza dough as with bread dough.

The pies look very good. Which pizza has the pepperoni? And what sizes were the pizzas?

Can you comment on the characteristics of the finished crusts as baked in a WFO and also comment on how they compare with your deck oven pizzas using the Ischia culture?

Peter