Author Topic: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula  (Read 29977 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #140 on: September 20, 2010, 10:57:00 PM »
Mike,

If you are interested at the end of this article it tells that Anthony opened his bakery in 1993, named Sant Arsenio.  What he really wanted to open was a pizzeria, but he couldnít scrape together the money for tables or a public restroom.  He opened his pizzeria, the first iteration of Una Pizza Napoletana in Point Pleasant, near the ocean.  Goes to show he even was one determined man then.

http://nymag.com/restaurants/cheapeats/2009/57897/

You are doing great with all the ideas you have for making pizza.   ;D

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3279
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #141 on: September 21, 2010, 12:33:17 AM »
Mike,

If you are interested at the end of this article it tells that Anthony opened his bakery in 1993, named Sant Arsenio.  What he really wanted to open was a pizzeria, but he couldnít scrape together the money for tables or a public restroom.  He opened his pizzeria, the first iteration of Una Pizza Napoletana in Point Pleasant, near the ocean.  Goes to show he even was one determined man then.

http://nymag.com/restaurants/cheapeats/2009/57897/

You are doing great with all the ideas you have for making pizza.   ;D

Norma


Thanks, Norma.

It's time to fire up my baby, the LBE, again and get back to those high-temp pizzas.

I also think I have reached a point with my NY-style project where I can't go much much further due to the lack of options regarding ovens.

It's like hitting a wall. My home oven is crapping out it seems, well at least the lower heating element. I think it needs replacing because the temps are not as good as they were in the beginning. Or maybe it's the stone but I doubt it.

AM is a determined man. Proves that the American dream still has a delicate sign of life, given how hard it is these days to open anything new, business-wise. At least over here...
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #142 on: September 21, 2010, 09:53:02 PM »
Steve and I made the pizza today with the Ischia starter.  The dough ball was left to warm-up for a little over 1 Ĺ hrs.  The first picture was the underneath of the dough ball when I removed it from the deli case and the second picture of the underneath is right before I opened the dough ball.   This dough was very easy to open.  It almost fell open, it was that easy.  After the dough ball was opened and the sauce was applied, we got busy and couldnít put the cheese on this pie right away and then put it into the oven.  When we finally got to put the cheese on we didnít check to see if the dough might be sticking to the peel.  Of course this pie had to stick on one part of the peel and when it was put into the oven it didnít want to come off the peel.  That is why the pizza is shaped like it is.  All day long no other pies stuck to the peel.  Wouldnít you know it had to be this pie that stuck to the peel.  :-D

The pizza turned out well, expect the shape wasnít perfect.

Pictures below

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #143 on: September 21, 2010, 09:54:16 PM »
more pictures

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #144 on: September 21, 2010, 09:55:33 PM »
more pictures

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #145 on: September 21, 2010, 09:57:18 PM »
more pictures

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #146 on: September 21, 2010, 09:58:13 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21980
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #147 on: September 21, 2010, 10:24:14 PM »
Norma,

The pizza certainly looks tasty. Can you describe the characteristics of the crust and crumb in detail and also compare this pizza against the previous ones that you described in this thread and also your basic preferment Lehmann pizza?

Did you get any sense that the dough might have overfermented? Typical signs would be a wetness or slackness of the dough with a "clammy" feel and a weakened gluten structure.

Peter

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #148 on: September 21, 2010, 10:47:23 PM »
Norma,

The pizza certainly looks tasty. Can you describe the characteristics of the crust and crumb in detail and also compare this pizza against the previous ones that you described in this thread and also your basic preferment Lehmann pizza?

Did you get any sense that the dough might have overfermented? Typical signs would be a wetness or slackness of the dough with a "clammy" feel and a weakened gluten structure.

Peter

Peter,

The characteristics of the crust were a lot different than the preferment Lehmann dough.  The past pizzas I made with the Ischia starter were drier.  This crust was crisp on the bottom and moist inside.  The only problems I saw with this crust is that it seemed to have a gum line.  It didnít bother me when eating it, but wondered why it would have a gum line, when the rest of the pizza seemed baked okay.  There wasnít any sourdough taste in this crust and the salt tasted right for my taste.  Steve reheated a slice after it had cooled down and that crust did crisp up right away.  There was a different taste in this crust, but I just canít say what it was.  I certainly did enjoy this different crust though.  So far, this has been my best attempt, in my opinion.  The only other thing that bothered me about this pizza was it didnít brown as much as I wanted.  It did have good oven spring though. 

I didnít see any signs that this dough was overfermented.  The dough felt so soft and if we could have finished dressing the pie right away, I donít think it would have stuck to the peel in one place.  As I posted before, this dough opened so easily and did have nice bubbles in the skin.

Do you have any ideas of what I should try in my next attempt or do you think I should try this same formula again?

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21980
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #149 on: September 21, 2010, 11:45:25 PM »
Norma,

I think I have some possible explanations for your results. However, to give you a complete response, can you tell me how you came to the conclusion that you experienced a gum line, including what test you conducted to determine that you had a gum line as opposed to just a plain old gummy crust? And was the gummy characteristic throughout the entire pizza or just the center?

Peter


Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #150 on: September 22, 2010, 06:22:24 AM »
Norma,

I think I have some possible explanations for your results. However, to give you a complete response, can you tell me how you came to the conclusion that you experienced a gum line, including what test you conducted to determine that you had a gum line as opposed to just a plain old gummy crust? And was the gummy characteristic throughout the entire pizza or just the center?

Peter


Peter,

When I taste or bake a new kind of pizza, that I never made before, I usually tear it apart after eating some to see what it looks like.  The gum line I thought was in this pizza, was just under the sauce and cheese.  The rim didnít have any gummy or gum line to my knowledge.  I didnít ever really experience a gum line (or what I thought was a gum line in any other pizza I had baked before) Since this pizza was moister in the rim, then other pizzas I had tried, I didnít know if that was the reason I thought there was a gum line or not.  What confused me was the bottom and top of the pizza seemed baked enough.  Another thing I had wondered was, since this skin with just the sauce was left longer than normal to sit on the peel,  (because we had to wait on customers) it this could have also contributed to what I thought was a gum line.  I should have taken a picture of when I pulled some of the cheese of one slice to be able to show you what I thought was a gum line.  I didnít know of other tests to do, to see if I really had a gum line.  Since this pizza was baked in my regular deck oven at normal baking times, I thought that usually only gum lines were produced from high bake temperatures.  I still have a lot to learn about pizzas and know there can be some moistness under the sauce when making a pizza, but this pizza was different than other ones I had tried before.

I donít know if you can magnify DCO4883, DCO04884 and DCO35889, but on my computer, I can see what I thought was a gum line.

There were a few pictures missing from the beginning when I took this dough ball out of the deli case to warm-up.  Those pictures were of a bug Steve found when he was outside for a minute.  He knows I am interested in nature and bugs and found me a different bug.  Of course then we had to examine the bug for a little while and of course I had to take a few pictures.    The one picture didnít turn out but this is the bug we had to examine.  This isnít related to this pizza, but I just thought I would have to post it, because it was so different and also if I would have kept up with my other regular pizzas, I might not had the troubles with this pizza sticking to the peel.  I spend too much time examining things.  :-D

Picture of bug

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21980
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #151 on: September 22, 2010, 10:43:03 AM »
Norma,

The reason why I asked you about the gum line matter and the method you used to diagnose it was because I couldn't recall that you had ever had a gum line problem before with any of your pizzas. Also, there are many possible causes of a gum line, which is more of a surface phenomenon, and it is often confused with a gumminess or partially-unbaked dough problem that can permeate a good part of the thickness of a finished crust. Based on the gum line tests that Tom Lehmann recommends, for example, at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7000&p=46894&hilit=#p46894, it appears that you may have properly conducted a gum line test and identified a gum line condition.

Initially, I thought that if you had an actual gum line problem it was because of either one of two possible causes. The first was that the gluten structure may have been weakened by the action of enzymes (protease) to the point where the dough skin was unable to support the sauce and cheese and that resulted in a gum line. The second possible cause was that, in opening up the dough ball, which you indicated you accomplished with ease, perhaps you ended up with an overly thin center that ended up causing a gum line. Both of these conditions are quite common causes of gum lines. It is still possible that one or both were implicated in your gum line condition but when you mentioned that you pre-sauced the dough skin and let it sit unattended for a while, that led me to believe that that was probably the cause of the gum line you experienced. Usually when a pizza operator finds it necessary to pre-sauce skins for any reason, it is recommended that the skins be brushed with oil before applying the sauce. That creates a barrier between the skin and the sauce and prevents or limits the absorption of the water in the sauce by the skin. Otherwise, a gum line becomes very likely. I think that may have happened inadvertently in your case. The only way to determine if pre-saucing and leaving the dough skin unattended was the cause in your case is to repeat the experiment in the normal manner to see if the gum line condition resurfaces.

Apart from the above, I think that your dough may have been fermented too long even though you did not have any problems handling the dough. If I am correct on this, that would also help explain the reduced crust coloration. The proximate cause of the reduced coloration may have been an excess of acid production (a low pH). My recollection is that Tom Lehmann has said that an excessive amount of acid can make it difficult for a pizza crust to brown during baking, requiring a longer bake in order to develop more color. I believe he also said that this condition was common with sourdoughs. I think I should be able to find where he discussed this matter in one of his PMQTT posts so that you can read his comments yourself.

As far as your next possible experiment is concerned, I think I would use the same dough formulation but reduce the bulk rise time at room temperature and extend the cold fermentation part of the overall fermentation. By doing this, hopefully you will slow down the overall fermentation process and reduce the acid production and possibly also the action of the enzymes that can weaken the gluten structure. There are other possible changes that one might use, for example, adding sugar to the dough or using diastatic malt or adjusting the hydration of your preferment, but I do not advocate making multiple changes at one time, even though there may be a great temptation to do so in order to leapfrog the process to save time. I would rather take one step at a time, see what eventuates, and then assess the situation anew once the results are in. I think you also learn more by this approach and avoid confusing yourself with competing effects that can become very hard, and sometimes impossible, to disentangle, given the complexity of biochemical and physical aspects of naturally leavened doughs.

Peter

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #152 on: September 22, 2010, 11:07:13 AM »
Peter,

You are right that I never noticed a problem with a gum line before in my pizzas.  Thanks for explaining what might have caused the gum line. Thatís interesting that you think my dough might have been fermented too long and that could help to explain why there wasnít enough coloration in the crust. Since Tom Lehmann said that condition is more common with sourdoughs, I wonder if I use my pH meter in my next attempt if this might be able to help me understand if the dough pH is okay.  I will try less time in a bulk ferment for my next attempt and see what happens with that dough, before I try anything else.  I already know that each variable can bring changes.  I can understand I will need to see what happens with each change if I am ever going to be able to understand what can produce good results

I also searched this morning about gum lines and read this post from Tom Lehmann.  http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003september_october/tom_lehmann.php  Since I didnít really know if I had a gum line or not, I wasnít sure of what might have caused one, but could understand that it might have been the sauce that might have been too thin or sitting to long on the pie, that might have caused what I thought looked like a gum line, if the sauce had migrated into the dough.  I did do a search at PMQ think tank this morning also.

I fed my Ischia starter again this morning and I am going to make two dough balls today with the same formula I used in my last attempt.  I am going to make one dough with Caputo Blue Bag and one dough with KASL.  I might let this dough room ferment for a little longer, since I would like to try this dough on Friday. At least it would give me more understanding of how the Ischia starter works in a dough. Steve invited me to another bake in his WFO on Friday.  As of right now, I am not sure if I will be able to make that bake because I start job training for my new part-time job this afternoon and donít know what my training schedule will be.  After I finish the training then I will know more what my regular hours are.  It would be interesting to see how these two doughs balls would bake in Steveís WFO. I know this formulation wonít bake the same way in Steveís WFO, but I would be curious to see how much difference there is in a WFO. If I have to work on Friday, then I will just freeze the dough balls and give them to Steve to try. 

Early this morning I had to take my furry friend for his operation on his two hind legs cruciate ligaments.  I am not sure when he is going to get out of the hospital either and know I will have to learn to do therapy on him and give him shots in his hind legs, so this might also determine if I can go to Steveís home or not, to bake these doughs.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21980
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #153 on: September 22, 2010, 11:20:29 AM »
Norma,

After I last posted, I researched the archives at PMQTT and found the Tom Lehmann post on acid production, in a Q&A session with D-Laurios starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9214&p=64013&hilit=#p64011. You might also want to read the entire thread since it contains other useful information.

I also did a quick search of the PMQTT archives using the keywords "gum line" (two words, without the quotes) and there is a lot of information on that subject, as you may also have discovered. Sometime when I am in a studying frame of mind I may read the relevant posts, if only to expand and solidify my knowledge and understanding of gum lines.

I was aware of the fact that an overly thin sauce can also cause a gum line but since I assumed that you were using your regular sauce I did not think to raise that possibility with you. But it is good to know anyway.

Peter

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #154 on: September 22, 2010, 11:57:06 AM »
Peter,

Since Tom Lehmann says a lower pH makes it more difficult to brown the crust in the baking process, what is the optimum pH of a sourdough crust supposed to be?  Maybe with using my pH meter I will be able to see from week to week what my experimental doughs pHís are.  I see Tom Lehmann also posted that a shorter fermentation time will also help with crust color as you posted before.  Does that apply to bulk ferment or just shorter fermentation times?  The last attempt of the crust yesterday as far as the crispness in the crust, was just about right in my opinion.  I still donít know if the sauce sitting on the skin longer did contribute to the gum line, but I was in a hurry to add more water to my sauce shortly before we baked that pizza.  The amount of thinness of my sauce up to a certain point on my regular pizzas doesnít seem to make any difference, but it might make a difference on a sourdough crust.  I also think that pizza might have stuck to the peel, because the sauce might have been too thin.  I canít be sure though, until I do more experiments.

I also did the search on gum line at PMQ think tank.  If you find any other posts, where I can see information about gum lines let me know.  Right now, after thinking about it, I think my gum line might have come from the sauce.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21980
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #155 on: September 22, 2010, 01:20:22 PM »
Norma,

It is very difficult to say what the optimum pH is for a naturally-leavened dough. The pH value is dictated to a great extent by the fermentation temperature. If you were to use only a room temperature fermentation, it might be possible with your particular leavening system to state a range of pH values over time. But, if, as in your case, you use a combination of room temperature fermentation, cold fermentation and a temper at room temperature, the pH values over the same time period will most likely be higher, because of the introduction of the cold fermentation period. Also, where the dough will be from the standpoint of pH over the entire fermentation period will depend on the condition of the preferment (poolish in your case) at the outset. If it too acidic to begin with, then that will lower the final pH at the time of baking. That is why Prof. Calvel says in his book The Taste of Bread to be sure to refresh the starter/preferment culture before using it (which, of course, you have been doing). If you have a pH meter, you might want to use it in your experiments and note the relevant values, particularly at the time the experimental doughs are to be used to make pizzas. If I had to venture a guess, a pH value of around 5 might be indicated at the time of baking. The range of pH values will, of course, be quite wide over the entire fermentation period. Since you did not experience any problems with oven spring from what you said, that would suggest that your dough pH perhaps was not out of line. It may have been more a lack of residual sugars to contribute adequately to crust coloration.

For background purposes, you might also want to read Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,853.msg7771/topicseen.html#msg7771, including the link to the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm. The portion of the theartisan.net article that you want to read is the section entitled "Acidification". That section recites a fair amount of material from Prof. Calvel's book The Taste of Bread. You will also note that the Acidification section talks about using malt extract (I believe that diastatic malt is intended) to reestablish the proper sugar balance. In his book, Prof. Calvel also suggests using sugar at 0.3-0.5% to restore that balance. As I noted earlier, I would like to see if you really need diastatic malt or sugar before adding them to your dough to get more residual sugars.

Another post where I discussed some of the above matters is Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8011.msg69043/topicseen.html#msg69043.

When Tom Lehmann talks about sugar helping with crust color, I believe that he is thinking of a shortened fermentation period (most likely a cold fermentation period) during which sugars in the dough, both added and natural, have not been completely exhausted. As such, they would be available to contribute to crust coloration. This position would be consistent with Tom's discussion at the PMQTT at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&hilit=#p26890.

Peter

« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 11:37:38 AM by Pete-zza »

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #156 on: September 22, 2010, 09:04:20 PM »
Peter,

That is interesting to know that the pH over the entire fermentation period will depend on the condition of the preferment.  I will use my pH meter to see what the pH values are before I made the pizzas. The pH meter is a Cole Palmer meter and is decent to measure pH. That meter might be able to tell me something. 

I appreciate you referencing the links.  I never thought about sourdough starters being loaded with more acids even if they donít seem to acidic.

In the second article you referenced it said that a below pH coincides with a lack of residual sugars, which translates to a deficiency in oven-spring.and coloration.  It still makes me wonder why there was oven-spring without coloration, but I will read over this article more to try and understand all what goes into acidification.  I also see if there isnít enough residual sugar a good remedy would be to use malt extract, to reestablish the proper sugar balance.  I also would like to see first what more experiments produce, before I would add malt extract.

It makes me wonder if I would measure the pH of the starter before putting it into the dough, if that could help to know when the starter is at the right acidic level. 

Understanding all of this with using a starter is going to be challenge.

I did make my two doughs today.  One with Caputo and one with KASL.  I left them bulk ferment for 3 hours.  That might not help me understand what a starter will do in my deck oven, but might help me, by watching how that dough ferments.  I donít have to work on Friday, except for going to market to make my poolish, so if it doesnít rain, hopefully I will get to Steveís home to be able to try out the two dough balls in his WFO.  I will try to post pictures of those two dough balls tomorrow, after they have cold fermented for one day. 

I will make another dough ball on Friday.  Do you have any idea of how long I should try to room temperature ferment this next attempt before balling and cold fermenting?

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21980
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #157 on: September 22, 2010, 09:53:51 PM »
Norma,

I don't think that it is necessary to fully understand the biochemistry of the natural Ischia poolish and dough. Getting the basics down--that is, the basic fermentation protocol--will be more important from a practical standpoint. I like to understand how and why things happen but that is so I can come up with possible solutions to problems that might arise.

I think it is possible for the pH to be in order and yet not get the desired degree of crust coloration. If the pH is too low, as can happen with a long room temperature fermentation, its relationship to the residual sugar can result in oven spring problems. However, after I posted last, I recalled that the dough skin you used to make the last pizza had sat on the peel for a while. During that time, the skin may have proofed and gained volume and height that might have helped with the oven spring. So, I suppose, it could have been possible that without that rise, the oven spring might have been compromised. Hopefully we will learn more with your next effort using the same dough formulation.

If only to satisfy my curiosity, I would be interested to see what values of pH you note with both the Ischia preferment and the dough at different stages, and especially at the point where the pizzas are to be made with the dough. Most doughs start at a pH of almost 6 and, depending on the fermentation protocol and temperature and other factors, can drop to below 5.

You are correct about the large number of organic acids that are formed during the fermentation of the dough. However, it is important to keep in mind that most of those acids are present in very small quantities. Acetic acid is the most dominant organic acid. The bacteria (lactobacillus) also perform to provide lactic acid. A good article on lactic acid fermentation in sourdough, if you can slog through it and come out alive, is at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough.

On the matter of the duration of the bulk fermentation of the dough you plan to make on Friday, can you remind me of how long your last bulk fermentation was?

Peter

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #158 on: September 22, 2010, 10:43:33 PM »
Peter,

Hopefully I will learn more in my next attempt.  The dough didnít sit on the peel that long.  It was only about 5 minutes.  When I opened the dough it did have small bubbles all though the skin.

I have my pH meter at market, so maybe I can bring it home to make my dough Friday and be able to measure the pH of the Ischia preferment before I mix it into the other ingredients.  If I can keep all the numbers of how acidic the Ischia starter is before I put it into the rest of the ingredients, maybe it might tell us something. I will also try to take each pH level before I make a pizza.  I will take note of what you posted about most doughs start out with a pH of 6.

I will look read over the lactic acid fermentation in sourdough in the next few days.  Right now my mind is tried from trying to learn all the new things on my part-time job. I need my mind fresh to even be able to read all what is posted about lactic acid fermentation.  :-D  I am always interested is learning something new about sourdoughs.  Thanks for that link.

In my last attempt I let that dough bulk ferment for 5 hours.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21802
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #159 on: September 23, 2010, 07:55:53 AM »

These are pictures of the two dough balls that I made yesterday.  They havenít been cold fermented for 24 hrs.  What I found interesting when I made these two dough balls with the exact same formula yesterday was the Caputo dough seemed more sticky.  I guess that is because of the lower protein content of the Caputo flour.  The poppy seeds havenít move since yesterday.  I am going to go to market this morning and get my pH meter to measure what the pH is on the doughs.  I mixed both of these doughs in the Kitchen Aid mixer.  The Ischia starter was put into the water, then put into the mixer, before the flour (mixed with salt) then mixed on speed 1, before adding the oil last.  Another thing that has me puzzled about the Caputo dough is when I balled it yesterday it seemed so smooth.  Now it looks rougher than the KASL dough.

First two pictures are of Caputo dough and second two pictures are of the dough that was made with KASL.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!