Author Topic: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?  (Read 6210 times)

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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2010, 03:06:21 PM »
Tran Man, will stated. I like your take on the recipe issue, learn how to do it and you create your own recipe.The only thing left unresolved is the knead time issue of high gluten flour. I've seen it stated in many sources that it's damn near impossible to overknead the stuff. Perhaps the gluten develops quickly but further kneading doesn't have a detrimental effect on it, I really don't know all the science behind it. Maybe some others can shed some more light on the topic. Your pies always look great, so whatever you're doing keep doing it. I know you like to experiment as do I, I guess we just can't leave well enough alone!
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Offline Bobino414

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2010, 03:38:17 PM »

There is a limit to how much you can knead flour. 
This can be measured on a farinograph.  This machine will tell you by minutes in graph form the point of maximum viscosity before gluten starts to break down.  Continuing along the curve we come to the departure time which is the point at which  the gluten is breaking down.  This varies with each batch of flour.  The good news is you can get this info from the flour manufacturer.

Bob

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2010, 04:08:15 PM »
With all the discussion of short knead times, I am always interested in explanation for cases such as the following where modest hydration values and long machine knead times were used:

1) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9061.msg78376.html#msg78376 (60% hydration, 25 minuter machine knead)

2) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8947.msg77486/topicseen.html#msg77486 (60% hydration, 30 minute machine knead)

3) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8737.msg75651.html#msg75651 (50 minute machine knead)

There is also an interesting thread on the subject of knead times at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9027.0.html.

Peter

Offline Bobino414

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2010, 06:22:43 PM »

Great post Peter

Lately there seemed to be a contest who could knead the least.

I mentioned the farinograph and departure time in response to the comment by DMCavanagh that further kneading has no detrimental effect.
Since Thunder Stik did so well with his 30 and 50 minute kneads, clearly outside a typical departure time....something doesn't make sense!  Please clue us in.

Bob

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2010, 06:35:51 PM »
Pete, thanks for those links. Obviously ThunderStik doesn't have a problem with giving a dough a good knead, and although I've never done a 50, 30 or 25 minute, I do knead in the neighborhood of 8-10 minutes, way more than the 2 minute knead some are advocating. I knead very gently (#1 on KA mixer) and I always start with out of the fridge cold water. With this regime, a dough just won't come together in 2-3 minutes.
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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2010, 06:55:27 PM »
Read more about the farinograph at...http://www.straightgrade.com/articles/11/
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2010, 08:33:08 PM »
Since Thunder Stik did so well with his 30 and 50 minute kneads, clearly outside a typical departure time....something doesn't make sense!  Please clue us in.

Bob,

My recollection is that 50 minutes machine kneading was pretty much the outer limit for ThunderStik and that he used mostly speed 2 with his stand mixer with a spiral hook. Apparently with these conditions he did not destroy the dough, as can occur if the dough is kneaded to the so-called "letdown" point. I believe the letdown point may be the same as the "breakdown" phase mentioned in the interesting article that dmcavanagh referenced above. If so, I am well familiar with what a dough that breaks down looks and acts like. I discussed some experiments with my food processor to intentionally destroy a dough through long, aggressive kneading. I discussed some of the experiments at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1187.msg10649/topicseen.html#msg10649 and also at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2964.msg25401/topicseen.html#msg25401. Clearly, ThunderStik did not knead his doughs to the point where they were no longer functional.

My thinking on these matters has centered more on the oven temperatures used to bake pizzas more than on knead times, types of flours, yeast levels, hydration levels, etc. I tried to drive this point home at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10122.msg88410/topicseen.html#msg88410. As I noted in the last paragraph, the common denominator of the results of three different members (ThunderStik, Glutenboy and Essen1) who achieved outstanding results in different settings was oven temperature.

Peter


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2010, 08:57:35 PM »
Thanks for the links Peter.  I haven't had time to read through all of them but I briefly took a look at Thunderstiks 50 min knead experiment.  It is interesting to note a couple of things.

It was not a full 50min knead as he mention he took several breaks to allow the KA to rest a bit.  Still though I think that is beside the point.  I'm curious to know if the dough was being thoroughly mix for the duration of the knead time or if it was just spinning about in the bowl.  It was likely mixing but I'm just reaching here.  :-D

Another interesting point is that in reply #14, he says he didn't think the dough was usuable in the first 4 days b/c it was hard as a rock.  Only after that (several more days?) did the enzymes start breaking down the dough and it again softened up.  I am extremely interested in this statement as I have had similar ideas but not able to devise an experiment to test this out.   I have on many occassions found that i did not like the texture of cold ferments as I felt it toughen the crumb.  The only problem is that my first perfect pie I had made was a 2 day cold ferment with a rapid warm proof (100F).  That crust and crumb was magical and i have always wonder if enzymes were not somehow responsible in softening up that crust.

Thunderstiks experiments may not be truely representative of knead times and gluten development if there is in fact some role being played by enzymes here in softening up the crust since he took the doughs to near exhaustion.   I believe that is maybe something that happend to my mysterious magical pie.

I would bet that if one was to repeat the experiment and overknead a same day emergency dough using a BF or HG flour and a KA mixer, that the results would be drastically different.  So here's the challenge.  Anyone up for it?   Make a 60% hydrated dough and mix the heck out of it (45-50m range using a KA on level 2)  with a 1% ADY or appropriate amount IDY.  Let the dough rest for 1-2 hours max, then stretch and bake it.  I promise you will have a heck of a time opening it, the crumb will have a very distinct open cell structure to it, and will be like shoe leather (well maybe not that tough, but it will be noticeable).  Someone please do the experiment.  I don't have a kitchen aid mixer otherwise I would. 


Chau
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 09:00:39 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2010, 09:31:07 PM »
Chau,

As ThunderStik reported at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8737.msg75681.html#msg75681, the 50 minute knead was basically an experiment to determine the outer limits of the kneading process. But, one of the interesting results that came out of his experiments is that the long knead can extend the window of usability of the dough. I would have thought that the long knead time would have warmed up the dough so much that the dough would have started to ferment faster. ThunderStik commented on the results he got with one 50 minute kneaded dough ball at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10353.msg91154/topicseen.html#msg91154. In a way, I was hoping that ThunderStik was wrong on this point because it was so at odds with what I understood about kneading and the way I knead my dough.

Like you, ThunderStik was an experimenter at heart. He was a curious person and was constantly tinkering around with his dough formulations and trying to understand the results he got and to apply them in a practical way to his pizza making, just as you do. And it seemed to me that he got very good at that. I think he was a natural. I enjoyed his posts because he conducted experiments that I would have like to have conducted. So I learned things from what he did. 

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2010, 09:45:35 PM »
Peter thanks for posting and telling of Thunderstiks experiments.  I find his particular statement that his experimental 50m knead dough was possibly his best pizza very very intriguing. 

Because up till now I have not divulge a bit of information about my PP#1.  This was back in the day that I was just starting and that particularly dough was overkneaded as well.  Overkneaded by my standards today.  Here's what i remember about that dough.  I was trying a bit of a new single handed kneading technique ( I know that sounds funny but its true), where I was banging the dough on the counter and then folding it on itself.  I was doing this b/c i was tiring myself out kneading with both hands so that the one could rest.   At any rate, I recall this dough turning ultrawhite (as happens when dough is kneaded very well).  It had a very heavy putty feeling to it.  I don't recall the knead times but it was possibly around the 15m mark.   This dough also had high amounts of yeast.  15gm of starter and a 1/4 tsp of ADY per 300gm dough ball.  cold fermented for 2 days until I had large bubbles on top and warm proof.  All I know is that it produce one of the best pies I have eaten anywhere.  I was totally blown away.  something happened then that I still don't understand to this day.  I subsequently made over 200 pies after that one using variations of the same recipe with lack luster results.  I have always suspected it was either the warm proof or the enzymatic action during the warm proof that cause that.  I now read other member's post that describe the same light airy crust from long fermentation like Thunderstik and member Elecco's 7 day dough.  Gorbechevguy talks of the same thing in my PP thread.  There seems to be a mystery out there concerning fermentation and enzyme activity that is rearing it's magical head every now and then.  Kinda like seeing a UFO or bigfoot.  Hard to sound believable or convincing.

Chau
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 10:22:28 PM by Jackie Tran »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2010, 10:09:23 PM »
Chau,

One handed kneading is a well known method for making bread dough. For example, in her book Breads from the La Brea Bakery, Nancy Silverton described the process as follows (at page 44):

Here's what you do. Remove the dough from the bowl, if you're using one, and place it on a sturdy work surface. With one continuous motion, grab the end of the dough closest to you, fold it toward the other end, gather one end in your fist, lift and flip the dough in midair, then whack it down hard on the work surface. Immediately grab the dough again and repeat the motion over and over for about 5 to 7 minutes. As you work, the dough will become less sticky, more elastic, and more difficult to manipulate. Slowly, it will start to take on the rough shape of a rounded loaf, or boule.

Ms. Silverton felt it was "nice to have one clean hand with which to answer the phone, burp the baby, or pat the dog."

I tried Ms. Silverton's one-handed kneading method when I made some of her sourdough breads. I later learned that the method was used to make French breads where the workers were required to do a hundred or more repetitions of the one-handed slam and they dared not stop until they got to the desired number.

Peter

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2010, 10:28:37 PM »
Tran Man, I have a KA mixer, will give your experiment a try sometime in the next few days and will report results at this thread. I have all kinds of flour so if you have a preference let me know. I have been moving away from the use (or reducing) of my KASL, doughs were just to chewy for my taste. KA bread flour is an option, so to is Gold Medal better for bread or KA or GM ap flour. Lately, my favorite pizza making flour is Con Agra occident flour which I talked about in a thread in the dough ingredients section..
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Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2010, 11:06:24 PM »
Chau,

One handed kneading is a well known method for making bread dough. For example, in her book Breads from the La Brea Bakery, Nancy Silverton described the process as follows (at page 44):

Here's what you do. Remove the dough from the bowl, if you're using one, and place it on a sturdy work surface. With one continuous motion, grab the end of the dough closest to you, fold it toward the other end, gather one end in your fist, lift and flip the dough in midair, then whack it down hard on the work surface. Immediately grab the dough again and repeat the motion over and over for about 5 to 7 minutes. As you work, the dough will become less sticky, more elastic, and more difficult to manipulate. Slowly, it will start to take on the rough shape of a rounded loaf, or boule.

Ms. Silverton felt it was "nice to have one clean hand with which to answer the phone, burp the baby, or pat the dog."

I tried Ms. Silverton's one-handed kneading method when I made some of her sourdough breads. I later learned that the method was used to make French breads where the workers were required to do a hundred or more repetitions of the one-handed slam and they dared not stop until they got to the desired number.

Peter


I have done this kneading method before. It is a really big work out. I think it is ment for really wet doughs. Here is a link of a French baker doing it, I learned how to do it by watching this video.
. Make sure the table or counter you are doing it on is very sturdy like it says in the Silverton description, I almost removed the middle extender on the table.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 11:09:16 PM by BrickStoneOven »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2010, 11:16:51 PM »
Awesome DMC.  Thank you for volunteering to do this experiment.   You can pick any flour you want to do the experiment with, however if I were doing the experiment, I would do 2 batches.  I would do one with a low protein flour like AP flour and I would do the 2nd with the highest protein flour you have, a HG flour should be fine.  

I would do this to see not only if overkneading makes a difference in a same day dough but also the effects of overkneading on a low vs high protein flour.   My hypothesis is that low protein flours will take longer to develop gluten, and that the HG flour will show a stronger gluten matrix, be harder to open, and have a much chewier crumb.

I will leave batch size up to you since you probably know the minimum batch size your KA can handle.  

You can use any recipe you want but I would recommend no oil or sugar in the formula.  The less variables we have the better.  I would keep the hydration ratio at 60% to possibly get exaggerated results.  I know 60% is low but it will only make the results even more meaningful either way.  I would use a common amount of salt (say 2%).  Yeast can be ADY or IDY and i would use an appropriate amount for an emergency bake.  So the dough should be baked within 2-4 hours of being made, your choice.  I would venture a guess of 1%+ for the yeast but will leave that up to you.  Also I will leave it up to you to pick the mixing speed but maybe a level 2 would be good.

If you can, take pictures of the dough as it is mixing every 10-15m or so.  Stop the mixer at this point for a picture and also pull a piece of dough off the bulk and note it's character iterms of stretchability vs tearing.  You can compare the notes between the 2 doughs after the bake.  I would think it is only really necessary to make mental notes as which one is (IYO) developing gluten faster.  

As a final note, I would suspect that 50m of knead time is too much for either AP flour or HG flour and that both crumbs will have a very similar dry and tough crumb.  Meaning the longer the need time, the less difference we may see.  

Chau

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2010, 11:45:15 PM »
OK Tran Man I'll give it a go, one batch will be GM unbleached AP flour and the other will be KASL flour, both are presently on hand. I'm not great with uploading pictures on the computer but I'll try to do my best. I'm sure I can give an adequate written discription. As I already stated in a previous post, I have been moving away from KASL because it makes an overly chewy dough with my standard mixing technique. Since I know well how that acts I'll be curious to see what 50 minute knead produces. Will try to get this done by the end of the holiday weekend and report next week.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2010, 12:13:39 AM »

I have done this kneading method before. It is a really big work out. I think it is ment for really wet doughs. Here is a link of a French baker doing it, I learned how to do it by watching this video.
. Make sure the table or counter you are doing it on is very sturdy like it says in the Silverton description, I almost removed the middle extender on the table.

Thanks for the video BSO, I have seen that before.  The comments under it are funny too.   This is the same method Richard Bertinet shows in his video.  This is also the same method that I started out learning and using many moons ago.  I still use a variation of this method except I don't smack the dough down.  I use a much gentler approach.  After getting tired, I then developed the one hand version of this method that Peter posted about.  


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2010, 12:24:58 AM »
OK Tran Man I'll give it a go, one batch will be GM unbleached AP flour and the other will be KASL flour, both are presently on hand. I'm not great with uploading pictures on the computer but I'll try to do my best. I'm sure I can give an adequate written discription. As I already stated in a previous post, I have been moving away from KASL because it makes an overly chewy dough with my standard mixing technique. Since I know well how that acts I'll be curious to see what 50 minute knead produces. Will try to get this done by the end of the holiday weekend and report next week.

Thanks DMC, no hurry on the experiment.  B/c there is some confusion and mystery surrounding this issue it will be enlightening to see your results.   No worries about the pictures either, a general description will be sufficient. I hope it produces more answers but fear that with most things pizza related it will only lead to more questions.   :-D
I am more curious about the results and what we can all learn from this little test than what we think we already know about dough and pizza.  Believe it or not, and as much as knowledge as we have here, I get the feeling that there is much to be discovered and learned about dough and pizza. 

Thanks again for picking up the challenge. 

Chau

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2010, 01:00:56 AM »
Tran Man, we're probably all overthinking what we do with our pizza. I long ago simplified my dough to it's most basic form flour, water, salt and yeast. No sweeteners, no oils, no chemical dough conditioners. Where I differ from most is that I use my own sourdough starter for my ferment, sometimes adding a minuscule amount of instant yeast as an insurance policy. I'm a long, slow, cold ferment practitioner and I'm at the point where I prefer very long (a week or longer if possible ) ferments. I'm more into flavor than looks on a pizza dough, give me taste over a Kodak moment. Gotta do whatever makes you happy, but I'd rather eat it then admire it.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2010, 01:20:05 AM »
I absolutely agree, taste over looks any day.  To me texture is even more important than flavor, but that's just me.  I have for awhile now discounted cold ferments.  It just hasn't given me what I want but I'm definitely open minded enough to say that maybe I've been going about it all wrong.  Maybe I'm been missing something so simple there and that there in lies the pizzas of my dreams and i don't want to overlook every nook cranny on account of my preconceived notions.

Out of our conversation today, I'm now going back and experimenting with those long cold ferments you all seem to love so much.   ;)

Offline norma427

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2010, 08:27:14 AM »
I find this whole subject about longer mixing times interesting.  8)  When I was trying to find a formula for making Mackís pizza, I did use my commercial mixer and mixed a dough for a much longer time than I normally do in my Hobart mixer.  The dough didnít seem to suffer.  That mixing time was recommended by scott r.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg95846.html#msg95846

When I mixed the dough for a long while at:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg96182.html#msg96182

Norma
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 09:46:04 AM by norma427 »
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