Author Topic: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?  (Read 7471 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dmcavanagh

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2010, 06:55:27 PM »
Read more about the farinograph at...http://www.straightgrade.com/articles/11/
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2010, 08:33:08 PM »
Since Thunder Stik did so well with his 30 and 50 minute kneads, clearly outside a typical departure time....something doesn't make sense!  Please clue us in.

Bob,

My recollection is that 50 minutes machine kneading was pretty much the outer limit for ThunderStik and that he used mostly speed 2 with his stand mixer with a spiral hook. Apparently with these conditions he did not destroy the dough, as can occur if the dough is kneaded to the so-called "letdown" point. I believe the letdown point may be the same as the "breakdown" phase mentioned in the interesting article that dmcavanagh referenced above. If so, I am well familiar with what a dough that breaks down looks and acts like. I discussed some experiments with my food processor to intentionally destroy a dough through long, aggressive kneading. I discussed some of the experiments at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1187.msg10649/topicseen.html#msg10649 and also at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2964.msg25401/topicseen.html#msg25401. Clearly, ThunderStik did not knead his doughs to the point where they were no longer functional.

My thinking on these matters has centered more on the oven temperatures used to bake pizzas more than on knead times, types of flours, yeast levels, hydration levels, etc. I tried to drive this point home at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10122.msg88410/topicseen.html#msg88410. As I noted in the last paragraph, the common denominator of the results of three different members (ThunderStik, Glutenboy and Essen1) who achieved outstanding results in different settings was oven temperature.

Peter


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7224
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2010, 08:57:35 PM »
Thanks for the links Peter.  I haven't had time to read through all of them but I briefly took a look at Thunderstiks 50 min knead experiment.  It is interesting to note a couple of things.

It was not a full 50min knead as he mention he took several breaks to allow the KA to rest a bit.  Still though I think that is beside the point.  I'm curious to know if the dough was being thoroughly mix for the duration of the knead time or if it was just spinning about in the bowl.  It was likely mixing but I'm just reaching here.  :-D

Another interesting point is that in reply #14, he says he didn't think the dough was usuable in the first 4 days b/c it was hard as a rock.  Only after that (several more days?) did the enzymes start breaking down the dough and it again softened up.  I am extremely interested in this statement as I have had similar ideas but not able to devise an experiment to test this out.   I have on many occassions found that i did not like the texture of cold ferments as I felt it toughen the crumb.  The only problem is that my first perfect pie I had made was a 2 day cold ferment with a rapid warm proof (100F).  That crust and crumb was magical and i have always wonder if enzymes were not somehow responsible in softening up that crust.

Thunderstiks experiments may not be truely representative of knead times and gluten development if there is in fact some role being played by enzymes here in softening up the crust since he took the doughs to near exhaustion.   I believe that is maybe something that happend to my mysterious magical pie.

I would bet that if one was to repeat the experiment and overknead a same day emergency dough using a BF or HG flour and a KA mixer, that the results would be drastically different.  So here's the challenge.  Anyone up for it?   Make a 60% hydrated dough and mix the heck out of it (45-50m range using a KA on level 2)  with a 1% ADY or appropriate amount IDY.  Let the dough rest for 1-2 hours max, then stretch and bake it.  I promise you will have a heck of a time opening it, the crumb will have a very distinct open cell structure to it, and will be like shoe leather (well maybe not that tough, but it will be noticeable).  Someone please do the experiment.  I don't have a kitchen aid mixer otherwise I would. 


Chau
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 09:00:39 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2010, 09:31:07 PM »
Chau,

As ThunderStik reported at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8737.msg75681.html#msg75681, the 50 minute knead was basically an experiment to determine the outer limits of the kneading process. But, one of the interesting results that came out of his experiments is that the long knead can extend the window of usability of the dough. I would have thought that the long knead time would have warmed up the dough so much that the dough would have started to ferment faster. ThunderStik commented on the results he got with one 50 minute kneaded dough ball at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10353.msg91154/topicseen.html#msg91154. In a way, I was hoping that ThunderStik was wrong on this point because it was so at odds with what I understood about kneading and the way I knead my dough.

Like you, ThunderStik was an experimenter at heart. He was a curious person and was constantly tinkering around with his dough formulations and trying to understand the results he got and to apply them in a practical way to his pizza making, just as you do. And it seemed to me that he got very good at that. I think he was a natural. I enjoyed his posts because he conducted experiments that I would have like to have conducted. So I learned things from what he did. 

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7224
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2010, 09:45:35 PM »
Peter thanks for posting and telling of Thunderstiks experiments.  I find his particular statement that his experimental 50m knead dough was possibly his best pizza very very intriguing. 

Because up till now I have not divulge a bit of information about my PP#1.  This was back in the day that I was just starting and that particularly dough was overkneaded as well.  Overkneaded by my standards today.  Here's what i remember about that dough.  I was trying a bit of a new single handed kneading technique ( I know that sounds funny but its true), where I was banging the dough on the counter and then folding it on itself.  I was doing this b/c i was tiring myself out kneading with both hands so that the one could rest.   At any rate, I recall this dough turning ultrawhite (as happens when dough is kneaded very well).  It had a very heavy putty feeling to it.  I don't recall the knead times but it was possibly around the 15m mark.   This dough also had high amounts of yeast.  15gm of starter and a 1/4 tsp of ADY per 300gm dough ball.  cold fermented for 2 days until I had large bubbles on top and warm proof.  All I know is that it produce one of the best pies I have eaten anywhere.  I was totally blown away.  something happened then that I still don't understand to this day.  I subsequently made over 200 pies after that one using variations of the same recipe with lack luster results.  I have always suspected it was either the warm proof or the enzymatic action during the warm proof that cause that.  I now read other member's post that describe the same light airy crust from long fermentation like Thunderstik and member Elecco's 7 day dough.  Gorbechevguy talks of the same thing in my PP thread.  There seems to be a mystery out there concerning fermentation and enzyme activity that is rearing it's magical head every now and then.  Kinda like seeing a UFO or bigfoot.  Hard to sound believable or convincing.

Chau
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 10:22:28 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2010, 10:09:23 PM »
Chau,

One handed kneading is a well known method for making bread dough. For example, in her book Breads from the La Brea Bakery, Nancy Silverton described the process as follows (at page 44):

Here's what you do. Remove the dough from the bowl, if you're using one, and place it on a sturdy work surface. With one continuous motion, grab the end of the dough closest to you, fold it toward the other end, gather one end in your fist, lift and flip the dough in midair, then whack it down hard on the work surface. Immediately grab the dough again and repeat the motion over and over for about 5 to 7 minutes. As you work, the dough will become less sticky, more elastic, and more difficult to manipulate. Slowly, it will start to take on the rough shape of a rounded loaf, or boule.

Ms. Silverton felt it was "nice to have one clean hand with which to answer the phone, burp the baby, or pat the dog."

I tried Ms. Silverton's one-handed kneading method when I made some of her sourdough breads. I later learned that the method was used to make French breads where the workers were required to do a hundred or more repetitions of the one-handed slam and they dared not stop until they got to the desired number.

Peter

Offline dmcavanagh

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2010, 10:28:37 PM »
Tran Man, I have a KA mixer, will give your experiment a try sometime in the next few days and will report results at this thread. I have all kinds of flour so if you have a preference let me know. I have been moving away from the use (or reducing) of my KASL, doughs were just to chewy for my taste. KA bread flour is an option, so to is Gold Medal better for bread or KA or GM ap flour. Lately, my favorite pizza making flour is Con Agra occident flour which I talked about in a thread in the dough ingredients section..
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline BrickStoneOven

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1599
  • Location: Boston
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2010, 11:06:24 PM »
Chau,

One handed kneading is a well known method for making bread dough. For example, in her book Breads from the La Brea Bakery, Nancy Silverton described the process as follows (at page 44):

Here's what you do. Remove the dough from the bowl, if you're using one, and place it on a sturdy work surface. With one continuous motion, grab the end of the dough closest to you, fold it toward the other end, gather one end in your fist, lift and flip the dough in midair, then whack it down hard on the work surface. Immediately grab the dough again and repeat the motion over and over for about 5 to 7 minutes. As you work, the dough will become less sticky, more elastic, and more difficult to manipulate. Slowly, it will start to take on the rough shape of a rounded loaf, or boule.

Ms. Silverton felt it was "nice to have one clean hand with which to answer the phone, burp the baby, or pat the dog."

I tried Ms. Silverton's one-handed kneading method when I made some of her sourdough breads. I later learned that the method was used to make French breads where the workers were required to do a hundred or more repetitions of the one-handed slam and they dared not stop until they got to the desired number.

Peter


I have done this kneading method before. It is a really big work out. I think it is ment for really wet doughs. Here is a link of a French baker doing it, I learned how to do it by watching this video.
. Make sure the table or counter you are doing it on is very sturdy like it says in the Silverton description, I almost removed the middle extender on the table.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 11:09:16 PM by BrickStoneOven »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7224
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2010, 11:16:51 PM »
Awesome DMC.  Thank you for volunteering to do this experiment.   You can pick any flour you want to do the experiment with, however if I were doing the experiment, I would do 2 batches.  I would do one with a low protein flour like AP flour and I would do the 2nd with the highest protein flour you have, a HG flour should be fine.  

I would do this to see not only if overkneading makes a difference in a same day dough but also the effects of overkneading on a low vs high protein flour.   My hypothesis is that low protein flours will take longer to develop gluten, and that the HG flour will show a stronger gluten matrix, be harder to open, and have a much chewier crumb.

I will leave batch size up to you since you probably know the minimum batch size your KA can handle.  

You can use any recipe you want but I would recommend no oil or sugar in the formula.  The less variables we have the better.  I would keep the hydration ratio at 60% to possibly get exaggerated results.  I know 60% is low but it will only make the results even more meaningful either way.  I would use a common amount of salt (say 2%).  Yeast can be ADY or IDY and i would use an appropriate amount for an emergency bake.  So the dough should be baked within 2-4 hours of being made, your choice.  I would venture a guess of 1%+ for the yeast but will leave that up to you.  Also I will leave it up to you to pick the mixing speed but maybe a level 2 would be good.

If you can, take pictures of the dough as it is mixing every 10-15m or so.  Stop the mixer at this point for a picture and also pull a piece of dough off the bulk and note it's character iterms of stretchability vs tearing.  You can compare the notes between the 2 doughs after the bake.  I would think it is only really necessary to make mental notes as which one is (IYO) developing gluten faster.  

As a final note, I would suspect that 50m of knead time is too much for either AP flour or HG flour and that both crumbs will have a very similar dry and tough crumb.  Meaning the longer the need time, the less difference we may see.  

Chau


Offline dmcavanagh

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2010, 11:45:15 PM »
OK Tran Man I'll give it a go, one batch will be GM unbleached AP flour and the other will be KASL flour, both are presently on hand. I'm not great with uploading pictures on the computer but I'll try to do my best. I'm sure I can give an adequate written discription. As I already stated in a previous post, I have been moving away from KASL because it makes an overly chewy dough with my standard mixing technique. Since I know well how that acts I'll be curious to see what 50 minute knead produces. Will try to get this done by the end of the holiday weekend and report next week.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7224
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2010, 12:13:39 AM »

I have done this kneading method before. It is a really big work out. I think it is ment for really wet doughs. Here is a link of a French baker doing it, I learned how to do it by watching this video.
. Make sure the table or counter you are doing it on is very sturdy like it says in the Silverton description, I almost removed the middle extender on the table.

Thanks for the video BSO, I have seen that before.  The comments under it are funny too.   This is the same method Richard Bertinet shows in his video.  This is also the same method that I started out learning and using many moons ago.  I still use a variation of this method except I don't smack the dough down.  I use a much gentler approach.  After getting tired, I then developed the one hand version of this method that Peter posted about.  


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7224
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2010, 12:24:58 AM »
OK Tran Man I'll give it a go, one batch will be GM unbleached AP flour and the other will be KASL flour, both are presently on hand. I'm not great with uploading pictures on the computer but I'll try to do my best. I'm sure I can give an adequate written discription. As I already stated in a previous post, I have been moving away from KASL because it makes an overly chewy dough with my standard mixing technique. Since I know well how that acts I'll be curious to see what 50 minute knead produces. Will try to get this done by the end of the holiday weekend and report next week.

Thanks DMC, no hurry on the experiment.  B/c there is some confusion and mystery surrounding this issue it will be enlightening to see your results.   No worries about the pictures either, a general description will be sufficient. I hope it produces more answers but fear that with most things pizza related it will only lead to more questions.   :-D
I am more curious about the results and what we can all learn from this little test than what we think we already know about dough and pizza.  Believe it or not, and as much as knowledge as we have here, I get the feeling that there is much to be discovered and learned about dough and pizza. 

Thanks again for picking up the challenge. 

Chau

Offline dmcavanagh

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2010, 01:00:56 AM »
Tran Man, we're probably all overthinking what we do with our pizza. I long ago simplified my dough to it's most basic form flour, water, salt and yeast. No sweeteners, no oils, no chemical dough conditioners. Where I differ from most is that I use my own sourdough starter for my ferment, sometimes adding a minuscule amount of instant yeast as an insurance policy. I'm a long, slow, cold ferment practitioner and I'm at the point where I prefer very long (a week or longer if possible ) ferments. I'm more into flavor than looks on a pizza dough, give me taste over a Kodak moment. Gotta do whatever makes you happy, but I'd rather eat it then admire it.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7224
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2010, 01:20:05 AM »
I absolutely agree, taste over looks any day.  To me texture is even more important than flavor, but that's just me.  I have for awhile now discounted cold ferments.  It just hasn't given me what I want but I'm definitely open minded enough to say that maybe I've been going about it all wrong.  Maybe I'm been missing something so simple there and that there in lies the pizzas of my dreams and i don't want to overlook every nook cranny on account of my preconceived notions.

Out of our conversation today, I'm now going back and experimenting with those long cold ferments you all seem to love so much.   ;)

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2010, 08:27:14 AM »
I find this whole subject about longer mixing times interesting.  8)  When I was trying to find a formula for making Mackís pizza, I did use my commercial mixer and mixed a dough for a much longer time than I normally do in my Hobart mixer.  The dough didnít seem to suffer.  That mixing time was recommended by scott r.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg95846.html#msg95846

When I mixed the dough for a long while at:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg96182.html#msg96182

Norma
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 09:46:04 AM by norma427 »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7224
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2010, 09:41:57 AM »
As a test last night, I took a bromated HG flour and applied the 20-30m hand kneading technique I normally use for NP type pizzas. This method is more gentle on the dough than my usual technique I use for NY style pizza. At any rate, I was surprise to see that the dough didn't stiffen up at all as I would have expected.

So apparently it's not just mixing/kneading time, but how aggressive it is done as well. I'm confident that I could have continued for another 15m without ill effect. I stopped b/c this dough will be cold fermented for 2-3 days.

Offline dmcavanagh

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2010, 08:26:58 PM »
Norma and Tran Man, this is what I tried to say in earlier comments. Kneading gently with cold water and you don't create a warm dough, which I believe is the culprit in many situations. I think a lot of people get impatient when they make dough and they crank up the mixer to speed up the job. A lot of people are also still using that antiquated method of mixing yeast in warm water so the dough starts out warm to begin with. Cool or ever cold water and gentle technique yield a superior dough.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2010, 09:00:38 PM »
Norma and Tran Man, this is what I tried to say in earlier comments. Kneading gently with cold water and you don't create a warm dough, which I believe is the culprit in many situations. I think a lot of people get impatient when they make dough and they crank up the mixer to speed up the job. A lot of people are also still using that antiquated method of mixing yeast in warm water so the dough starts out warm to begin with. Cool or ever cold water and gentle technique yield a superior dough.

dmcavanagh,

I also believe that you donít want to create a warm dough.  I have seen the effects a warm dough can have.  I have also used cold water out of the fridge or partially using cold water when I am mixing at market or mixing my dough at home by hand.  I almost believe that most pizza businesses mix their dough longer than we do on this forum and then use colder water to compensate.  When I mix my dough at market in the Hobart, I only mix on speed one.  That mixer seems to incorporate the ingredients fast.  I have tried longer mix times other than the Mackís experiment and canít really say I really noticed a big difference in the dough, if the temperature did stay low enough for the dough.  I had been experimenting with that for awhile to see if a longer mix time would affect the dough. So far I havenít seen much difference.  I donít have a home mixer so I canít comment on how that would work.  I do always put my salt and IDY on separate sides of the flour and just mix. 

Norma

Offline dmcavanagh

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2010, 09:22:48 PM »
Norma, I make all my dough at home in a KA mixer with C-shaped dough hook. I'm not a big fan of the C-shaped hook as the dough has a tendency to stick to the hook and just get a ride around the bowl without being kneaded. You need to monitor and adjust constantly while mixing. I seldom use more then speed #1 when I mix dough, that's all you need to get the job done and it doesn't create heat. #2 is a bit aggressive (at least on my machine) so I try to avoid it's use. I mostly use my own sourdough starter, but occasionally will use instant yeast.I don't fret about where the yeast and salt go, but I do try to keep them separate
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7224
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2010, 09:43:08 PM »
DMC, I would also like to add that along with gentle mixing, low water/dough temps, a highly hydrated dough (as mentioned before) and a high % of oil does indeed lengthen the knead time to develop gluten even if one is working with a HG flour. 

What I find interesting is that you mentioned you don't like to use HG flour b/c it gives you a dense/chewy crumb.  I on the other hand also do not favor dense or chewy crumbs and am VERY sensitive to it.  But yet my favorite flour so far is a bromated HG flour.  With a high hydration ratio, and with a gentle and minimal knead time (4 min of mixing ingredients and another 6-8min of gentle and slow kneading) I get the lightest, airiest, fluffiest crumbs.  I've posted pictures of this.  DMC, I know you already said that you knead with cold water and gentle kneading but I'm curious to know if you've tried this with a short knead time on a HG flour and still get a dense or chewy crumb?

I don't know for sure, but it makes sense to me that HG flours will give an a better/stronger crumb structure to support loftier crumbs (read light and airy) if done right.  If not then it can definitely give a dense crumb which I have experience with ATs flour. 

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2010, 09:45:12 PM »
Norma, I make all my dough at home in a KA mixer with C-shaped dough hook. I'm not a big fan of the C-shaped hook as the dough has a tendency to stick to the hook and just get a ride around the bowl without being kneaded. You need to monitor and adjust constantly while mixing. I seldom use more then speed #1 when I mix dough, that's all you need to get the job done and it doesn't create heat. #2 is a bit aggressive (at least on my machine) so I try to avoid it's use. I mostly use my own sourdough starter, but occasionally will use instant yeast.I don't fret about where the yeast and salt go, but I do try to keep them separate

dmcavanagh,

Since I don't have a home mixer, some day if I purchase one, all your ideas will be helpful to me.

Thanks for your ideas,  :)

Norma

Offline dmcavanagh

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2010, 09:59:57 PM »
Tran Man, I'll give your idea a try. I have a large supply of KASL, I'll make a dough with it and give it a minimal knead of 4-5 minutes as you suggested.I..'m normally a long, cold ferment guy, but I know that's not your style so I'll do one dough your way and another dough will go in the fridge for a 4-5 day ferment. I'm not positive, but I think it may have more to do with this flours makeup than it does with technique. It's pretty stout stuff. Always willing to experiment though, never know what may be learned.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline dmcavanagh

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2010, 10:02:13 PM »
Tran Man, BTW, I never put oil in my dough. My feeling is if you need to add oil to tenderize a dough, you're using the wrong flour!
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7224
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2010, 10:13:02 PM »
Tran Man, BTW, I never put oil in my dough. My feeling is if you need to add oil to tenderize a dough, you're using the wrong flour!

Gotcha.  I use to sort of look down on oil as well mainly b/c I grew up with JV's materials.  I'm slowly changing my mind about that.  I find that I do like just a pinch of it (1%) especially for cold ferments since I tend to be so sensitive to even slightly tough crumbs and have noticed that cold ferments do give me a slightly denser crumb.   I'm in the process of experimenting again with cold ferments and quick high temp proofs to try and recapture that magical airy and light crumb.  I can do it with same day doughs all day, but always wanting to expand my repetoire. 

I agree with your assessment about it being possibly due to the flours make up.  I have tried a number of different BFs and HGs and they all seem to behave quite differently.  Some giving me that light and airy crumb and some a dense crumb despite using  the same formulation, ferment time, and baking times.

Also I forgot to say thanks for the compliments on my experimental pies.  I didn't mean to come off as rude or anything. 

Chau
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 10:17:19 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline ThunderStik

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 331
Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2010, 02:37:22 PM »
The experiment I did was for sheer knowledge of what would really happen. At that time there was much talk about knead times as it seems there is now.

1) If you are kneading your dough very little and it is still tight and springy (to the OP) your dough is not underfermented. Try that same dough but drag it out 2 more days, then another ball 2 more days out from that and so on. Using this method you will find the right time for THAT formulation.

2) I highly highly doubt anybody here could tell the difference between a 10 12 or 15 minute knead. Other inconsistencies in your process will show up before that.

3) The longer knead times extend the beginning of the fermentation window. Take 2 doughs, one kneaded for 5 minutes and another for 20 min. If you shoot for a 3 day ferm on that 3rd day the 5min dough will be ready while the 20 min dough will not be ready yet. So the old saying of "overkneading will make it tough" is true and untrue at the same time. It is true if you tried to use the doughs at the same time, while its not really true if you allow for extra time for the 20min dough to "ripen" up.
I learned to use this to my advantage when planning our weekly meals.

4) The time and all things stated were legit and I have repeated those things. But remember that is for that flour, different flours are exactly that ...different.  What I have read and experienced myself is that most people fear failure and therfore do not explore the outer bounderies of what is possible. I look at it as just flour and water and whats the worst I can do.  Many problems come down do an inconsistant process, changing too many variables at a time and being impatient. While knead times can and do effect a pie there are other variables that will have a much greater effect than a 5 min knead time difference. Like fridge temp.container typr and material, yeast types and the list goes on. Of course this is only in application to Lehman NY style variants and some American styles.
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)