Author Topic: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?  (Read 5343 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2010, 09:41:57 AM »
As a test last night, I took a bromated HG flour and applied the 20-30m hand kneading technique I normally use for NP type pizzas. This method is more gentle on the dough than my usual technique I use for NY style pizza. At any rate, I was surprise to see that the dough didn't stiffen up at all as I would have expected.

So apparently it's not just mixing/kneading time, but how aggressive it is done as well. I'm confident that I could have continued for another 15m without ill effect. I stopped b/c this dough will be cold fermented for 2-3 days.


Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2010, 08:26:58 PM »
Norma and Tran Man, this is what I tried to say in earlier comments. Kneading gently with cold water and you don't create a warm dough, which I believe is the culprit in many situations. I think a lot of people get impatient when they make dough and they crank up the mixer to speed up the job. A lot of people are also still using that antiquated method of mixing yeast in warm water so the dough starts out warm to begin with. Cool or ever cold water and gentle technique yield a superior dough.

Offline norma427

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2010, 09:00:38 PM »
Norma and Tran Man, this is what I tried to say in earlier comments. Kneading gently with cold water and you don't create a warm dough, which I believe is the culprit in many situations. I think a lot of people get impatient when they make dough and they crank up the mixer to speed up the job. A lot of people are also still using that antiquated method of mixing yeast in warm water so the dough starts out warm to begin with. Cool or ever cold water and gentle technique yield a superior dough.

dmcavanagh,

I also believe that you donít want to create a warm dough.  I have seen the effects a warm dough can have.  I have also used cold water out of the fridge or partially using cold water when I am mixing at market or mixing my dough at home by hand.  I almost believe that most pizza businesses mix their dough longer than we do on this forum and then use colder water to compensate.  When I mix my dough at market in the Hobart, I only mix on speed one.  That mixer seems to incorporate the ingredients fast.  I have tried longer mix times other than the Mackís experiment and canít really say I really noticed a big difference in the dough, if the temperature did stay low enough for the dough.  I had been experimenting with that for awhile to see if a longer mix time would affect the dough. So far I havenít seen much difference.  I donít have a home mixer so I canít comment on how that would work.  I do always put my salt and IDY on separate sides of the flour and just mix. 

Norma
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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2010, 09:22:48 PM »
Norma, I make all my dough at home in a KA mixer with C-shaped dough hook. I'm not a big fan of the C-shaped hook as the dough has a tendency to stick to the hook and just get a ride around the bowl without being kneaded. You need to monitor and adjust constantly while mixing. I seldom use more then speed #1 when I mix dough, that's all you need to get the job done and it doesn't create heat. #2 is a bit aggressive (at least on my machine) so I try to avoid it's use. I mostly use my own sourdough starter, but occasionally will use instant yeast.I don't fret about where the yeast and salt go, but I do try to keep them separate

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2010, 09:43:08 PM »
DMC, I would also like to add that along with gentle mixing, low water/dough temps, a highly hydrated dough (as mentioned before) and a high % of oil does indeed lengthen the knead time to develop gluten even if one is working with a HG flour. 

What I find interesting is that you mentioned you don't like to use HG flour b/c it gives you a dense/chewy crumb.  I on the other hand also do not favor dense or chewy crumbs and am VERY sensitive to it.  But yet my favorite flour so far is a bromated HG flour.  With a high hydration ratio, and with a gentle and minimal knead time (4 min of mixing ingredients and another 6-8min of gentle and slow kneading) I get the lightest, airiest, fluffiest crumbs.  I've posted pictures of this.  DMC, I know you already said that you knead with cold water and gentle kneading but I'm curious to know if you've tried this with a short knead time on a HG flour and still get a dense or chewy crumb?

I don't know for sure, but it makes sense to me that HG flours will give an a better/stronger crumb structure to support loftier crumbs (read light and airy) if done right.  If not then it can definitely give a dense crumb which I have experience with ATs flour. 

Offline norma427

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2010, 09:45:12 PM »
Norma, I make all my dough at home in a KA mixer with C-shaped dough hook. I'm not a big fan of the C-shaped hook as the dough has a tendency to stick to the hook and just get a ride around the bowl without being kneaded. You need to monitor and adjust constantly while mixing. I seldom use more then speed #1 when I mix dough, that's all you need to get the job done and it doesn't create heat. #2 is a bit aggressive (at least on my machine) so I try to avoid it's use. I mostly use my own sourdough starter, but occasionally will use instant yeast.I don't fret about where the yeast and salt go, but I do try to keep them separate

dmcavanagh,

Since I don't have a home mixer, some day if I purchase one, all your ideas will be helpful to me.

Thanks for your ideas,  :)

Norma
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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2010, 09:59:57 PM »
Tran Man, I'll give your idea a try. I have a large supply of KASL, I'll make a dough with it and give it a minimal knead of 4-5 minutes as you suggested.I..'m normally a long, cold ferment guy, but I know that's not your style so I'll do one dough your way and another dough will go in the fridge for a 4-5 day ferment. I'm not positive, but I think it may have more to do with this flours makeup than it does with technique. It's pretty stout stuff. Always willing to experiment though, never know what may be learned.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2010, 10:02:13 PM »
Tran Man, BTW, I never put oil in my dough. My feeling is if you need to add oil to tenderize a dough, you're using the wrong flour!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2010, 10:13:02 PM »
Tran Man, BTW, I never put oil in my dough. My feeling is if you need to add oil to tenderize a dough, you're using the wrong flour!

Gotcha.  I use to sort of look down on oil as well mainly b/c I grew up with JV's materials.  I'm slowly changing my mind about that.  I find that I do like just a pinch of it (1%) especially for cold ferments since I tend to be so sensitive to even slightly tough crumbs and have noticed that cold ferments do give me a slightly denser crumb.   I'm in the process of experimenting again with cold ferments and quick high temp proofs to try and recapture that magical airy and light crumb.  I can do it with same day doughs all day, but always wanting to expand my repetoire. 

I agree with your assessment about it being possibly due to the flours make up.  I have tried a number of different BFs and HGs and they all seem to behave quite differently.  Some giving me that light and airy crumb and some a dense crumb despite using  the same formulation, ferment time, and baking times.

Also I forgot to say thanks for the compliments on my experimental pies.  I didn't mean to come off as rude or anything. 

Chau
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 10:17:19 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2010, 02:37:22 PM »
The experiment I did was for sheer knowledge of what would really happen. At that time there was much talk about knead times as it seems there is now.

1) If you are kneading your dough very little and it is still tight and springy (to the OP) your dough is not underfermented. Try that same dough but drag it out 2 more days, then another ball 2 more days out from that and so on. Using this method you will find the right time for THAT formulation.

2) I highly highly doubt anybody here could tell the difference between a 10 12 or 15 minute knead. Other inconsistencies in your process will show up before that.

3) The longer knead times extend the beginning of the fermentation window. Take 2 doughs, one kneaded for 5 minutes and another for 20 min. If you shoot for a 3 day ferm on that 3rd day the 5min dough will be ready while the 20 min dough will not be ready yet. So the old saying of "overkneading will make it tough" is true and untrue at the same time. It is true if you tried to use the doughs at the same time, while its not really true if you allow for extra time for the 20min dough to "ripen" up.
I learned to use this to my advantage when planning our weekly meals.

4) The time and all things stated were legit and I have repeated those things. But remember that is for that flour, different flours are exactly that ...different.  What I have read and experienced myself is that most people fear failure and therfore do not explore the outer bounderies of what is possible. I look at it as just flour and water and whats the worst I can do.  Many problems come down do an inconsistant process, changing too many variables at a time and being impatient. While knead times can and do effect a pie there are other variables that will have a much greater effect than a 5 min knead time difference. Like fridge temp.container typr and material, yeast types and the list goes on. Of course this is only in application to Lehman NY style variants and some American styles.
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buceriasdon

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2010, 02:58:45 PM »
Chau, I worked late last night, didn't feel like cooking so I went to the local sports bar here for pizza and beer and the game. Same day dough, baked in a pan, and was terribly dissapointed in the crust. Toppings were great, but the crust was bland and doughy tasting and no rise to the rim, which I understand some people like, not me.My friends who have had both mine and Yo Yo Mo's say the same thing, a boring white bread crust. I know they buy flour in bulk but it's pretty much the same AP flours here. The two differences, I use a tile to bake and I cold ferment. Truth be known I live two doors from a Italian built wood fired oven and their crust is only slightly better, a tad more crispy. Same day dough there also. I'm a believer.
Don

I absolutely agree, taste over looks any day.  To me texture is even more important than flavor, but that's just me.  I have for awhile now discounted cold ferments.  It just hasn't given me what I want but I'm definitely open minded enough to say that maybe I've been going about it all wrong.  Maybe I'm been missing something so simple there and that there in lies the pizzas of my dreams and i don't want to overlook every nook cranny on account of my preconceived notions.

Out of our conversation today, I'm now going back and experimenting with those long cold ferments you all seem to love so much.   ;)

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2010, 04:13:08 PM »
Chau, I worked late last night, didn't feel like cooking so I went to the local sports bar here for pizza and beer and the game. Same day dough, baked in a pan, and was terribly dissapointed in the crust. Toppings were great, but the crust was bland and doughy tasting and no rise to the rim, which I understand some people like, not me.My friends who have had both mine and Yo Yo Mo's say the same thing, a boring white bread crust. I know they buy flour in bulk but it's pretty much the same AP flours here. The two differences, I use a tile to bake and I cold ferment. Truth be known I live two doors from a Italian built wood fired oven and their crust is only slightly better, a tad more crispy. Same day dough there also. I'm a believer.
Don


Don, I hear what you are saying but a same day dough doesn't necessarily have to be tasteless or bland.   As I stated in reply #14, the reason I believe many pizzerias have flavorless crusts is that they overknead and over-oxidize a dough destroying the flavor producing carotenoids in the dough.   When you overoxidize a dough, it turns ultra white and this is typically what you will see with many pizzeria crumbs.   Even using commercial yeast, my same day dough still retains a light cream color to it and has flavor.  Not as strong as a cold fermented dough or one that was made with a starter, but it's not flavorless either.  The reason is that I don't overknead the dough.   Again, I would say many NY style pizzerias overknead a dough and to compensate for the tough crumb that can result they add lots of oil to the dough producing a dense soft (ultra)white but tender crumb much like that of a white bread (tight celled structure). 

I can also get loads of flavor into a crust by using a higher percentage of starter and room fermenting for about 12 hours.  This is still a same day dough and I wouldn't say it's flavorless.  As a matter of fact, I often find it on par with a 2-3 day cold fermented dough.  I've ordered out many times and well familiar with the flavorless dough the local pizza joints are serving up.   

Chau
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 04:15:20 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2010, 04:50:39 PM »
  The reason is that I don't overknead the dough.   Again, I would say many NY style pizzerias overknead a dough and to compensate for the tough crumb that can result they add lots of oil to the dough producing a dense soft (ultra)white but tender crumb much like that of a white bread (tight celled structure). 


Chau

Do you know this because you have done it or because you have read about it? How much experience do you have with "over-kneading"?
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Dough pulling back lately - not enough kneeding?
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2010, 05:08:20 PM »
Do you know this because you have done it or because you have read about it? How much experience do you have with "over-kneading"?

I have lots of experience over kneading doughs by hand.  It use to be routine for me and I could produce tough leathery crumbs using low protein flours like AP and 00 at high hydration rates by using Richard Bertinet's kneading technique for bread dough.   I did this for many months until member Scott123 introduced me to the idea of minimal kneading.  Makes a huge difference. 

Thunderstik - I have also posted on the forum here and there about overkneading, over gluten development, and have posted numerous pictures of what an overkneaded and overgluten developed crumb looks like.  Let me know if you want me to post the links.

I agree with your statement that most ppl do not want to explore the outer boundaries and fear failure.  I am not one of those.  I love to experiment and have documented most of my pizza experiments here.

Chau
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 05:32:02 PM by Jackie Tran »


 

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