Ponzu, Sorry I have been away from the forum for a few weeks, and I just found this thread. Maybe you will come up with a better method to use with the bosch (I hope you do!), but do me a favor and circle back around to my (easier faster) method one more time once you have removed any other variables. I have tried a long slow wet knead with the bosch, and was not able to get a better product than I did with my simple throw it all in method. I am happy to try my experiments again, though. One thing I just want to make sure of is that you understand that its not always as simple as 8 min and its done. First off, I have found that batch size has a large impact on how long I mix for. I often mix anywhere from 5 to 8 minutes after a very short (10-30 second) initial knead, with a 20 min break in between. The only time I do 8 minute mixes is if I am doing a full sized batch (one using over a liter of water). If I am doing 1L batches, its usually around the 6-7 minute range, and if its less than that I end up in the 5-6 minute range. Hydration also plays a big roll, and if I am using a fairly wet dough my times go up, dryer dough, times go down. Anyhow, I was surprised to read your post, as Marc (widespread pizza) and I have often interchanged about how the dough coming out of our bosch mixers using the throw it all in method is the most soft and supple dough we have ever felt, and how incredibly smooth it is when compared to the results we got with other mixers (even the santos!). I spent years hand mixing, and a few more years doing wet kneads with a DLX, and the pizza I make with my bosch is the softest (and least tough). Definitely let me know if you have worked with the machine for a while and end up feeling like the slow addition of flour is still best. Thanks, and if I did throw you off course, nice quick recovery!