Oven modification/Bosch Universal pie.

[ponzu]

I have been cooking pies in a firebrick compartment built on the bottom of my oven with an Ice sleeve over my thermostat.

I'm getting stone temps to 830 using this method.

I cook for 90 seconds in the compartment and finish for about 45 seconds on a metal peel under the  broiler.

This batch was made with my new bosch mixer.  I believe I over worked the dough as it was not as smooth as usual after mixing and harder than usual to open up prior to baking.

I'll try to post pics in the next post.

-Ponzu

[ponzu]

pie pics below

[ponzu]

oven pic and crumb.

[Jackie Tran]

Your pizza still looks tastey.  What type of flour and how long did you mix for and on what speed?
I have always been curious about icing the thermostat.  How many pies can you cook in one sitting with your oven setup?

[ponzu]

Thanks JT,

A compliment from you is a true honor.  My "rimming" technique under the boiler is straight out of your playbook.

I used a 50 50 mixture of KA bread and AP flour.  The recipe was  otherwise 100% Infoodels as described in the Nearlypolitan thread.

I mixed it as described by Scott R in the dlx vs bosch post on the equipment board,  Which is to say , combined all ingredients followed by a 20 minute autolyse followed by an 8 minute mix on low.

Prior to this I had always used Varasanos dough recipe and wet kneeding protocol, including dough rests,  with my bread machine followed by a quick hand knead.  This produced a much more compliant and smooth dough.

There were too many new variables in this bake to draw any conclusions as to the dough's shortcomings;

1. I switched from Camoldoli to Ischia starter.  (loved the pungent flavor and this starter has some serious lift.)
2. I used a new recipe (see above)
3. I used a mixer for the first time.

For my next batch I will go back to the JV dough technique and recipe, keep the ischia in place, and use the Bosch. 

Will post with results, good or bad,

AZ

[ponzu]

Oh and I can cook ad many pies as I want assuming a 15 minute rest between pies to get stone temp back above 750.  I think that this could be improved with another layer of fire bricks above my stone.  Also assuming I have lots of ice sleeves.  These last about 20-30 minutes before heating up.

[Jackie Tran]

Ponzu, thanks for the feedback.  I think it's pretty cool that you were able to utilize tips and tricks from a number of members and put it all together to make a good looking pie. 

I have no experience with icing the thermostat but I have read a little bit about it here and there.  If you don't mind can you explain to me a bit more about it?  What do you make your ice sleeves out of?  Can you post a picture of your thermostat with the sleeve on it.   I had always assumed that in a hot oven of above 800F, that the heat would render the sleeve not functional within less than a minute, that's why I asked how many pies you can cook.  Do you have to change out the sleeve with each new pie?

That's just really awesome that you have found a way to bake pies above 800F in a "regular" electric home oven.  To me, that speaks volumes and deserves praise.   The fact is some of us, don't have the $ or inclination to buy mixers, fancy ingredients, and ovens.  Are we doomed to frozen pizza or mediocre home made pies b/c we have a $10 pizza stone, no caputo apron or NY water?  Heck NO!!! 

And what is this aberrant practice you speak of mixing of flours and baking over 800F.  That is absurd! Haven't you heard? Only caputo should be baked at high temps. (I'm kidding here)

I think when I am ready to buy a mixer, it will be the bosch.  Just curious as to how slow the slow setting is.  If you remember, on your next batch can you time how many revolutions it makes on the slow setting in a 15 second interval?

Just for clarification, when you were using the JV method, where you also using a mixer? I presume you didn't have the bosch yet.  Did you hand mix or used a different type of mixer?

Looking forward to your take on the differences b/t the 2 methods.  I think a comparison of mixing regimens will be useful to other members.

Chau

[ponzu]

JT,

The way I make the ice sleeve ia that I take a pointed chopstick wrap it with 3 sheets of parer towel, at first very tight then very loosely.  then I wet the paper towel so that is is sopping wet then I wrap a bunch of aluminum foil around it pull the chopstick out and stick it in the freezer.  Its good to go in about 45 minutes.  Each one lasts about 20 minutes in a hot oven before it needs to be switched out so i usually switch out just before loading the pie.

I'll check the mixer rpm with my next batch.

I made three pies from my remaining dough balls for lunch.  The dough was a bit more relaxed and the results were a little better.  Actually quite good.

I'll post pics in the next post.

[ponzu]

oh and I used a bread macine and my hands to mix dough before getting my bosch last friday!

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks for posting how you make the sleeves.  I'm sure this info will be very useful to those who wish to do the same in their electric oven. 

BTW, your latest pie looks really good.  Nice work & some nice leoparding.   How was the texture?  Did you notice if it got chewier after it sits out for 10-15m?   Have you tried or considered doing 100% AP flour.  Do you have caputo 00 flour to play with?

Chau

[Essen1]

Ponzu,

It's a pretty cool way to trick your oven into higher temps as posted by Grog in 2007 and by me in early 2008.

Glad it worked for you, too 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5842.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6291.0.html

One word of caution, though, when using this method. My oven shut down for quite awhile because of over-heating, even though it had a cleaning cycle and it wouldn't start up for about an hour or so.

You don't want to burn your house, or apartment, down.

[ponzu]

Essen,

Though I never saw your excellent posts, I saw references to the ice sleeve concept in other threads.  Thank you for your innovation, it really helps the stones get to that next level of hot.

Chau,

The last pie actually had a nice soft texture with a thin skin of crispy char.  It didnt last 15 minutes  so I don't know if it would have toughened up over time.

I mixed a dough last night using the varasano wet kneading technique and "Farina del mio secco"  00 flour. 

My observations were

1.  Again this ischia starter is explosive.  It activated with one feeding and at room temp (75 F) quintupled in volume spilling allover my counter in  three hours.  Do others share the impression that ischia is like yeast on steroids compared to camoldoli?
 
2.  The wet kneading technique resulted in a smooth and supple dough with no toughness.  The dough was really worked by the Bosch machine in its semi liquid state.  Truly night and day compared with my prior "autolyse all of the ingredients and mix for 8 minutes, which had a lumpy and tough feel to it at the end of kneading.

3.  The bosch rotates at about 120 RPM at its lowest setting.

I'll bake on Wednesday after a 3 day cold ferment.

-Alexi

[Jackie Tran]

Alexi, thanks for getting back to me about the RPM on the bosch.  Looking forward to more of your pics and posts.

Chau

[ponzu]

Crumb shot from last Sundays pie:

[scott r]

Ponzu, Sorry I have been away from the forum for a few weeks, and I just found this thread.    Maybe you will come up with a better method to use with the bosch (I hope you do!), but do me a favor and circle back around to my (easier faster) method one more time once you have removed any other variables.  I have tried a long slow wet knead with the bosch, and was not able to get a better product than I did with my simple throw it all in method.   I am happy to try my experiments again, though.   One thing I just want to make sure of is that you understand that its not always as simple as 8 min and its done.   First off, I have found that batch size has a large impact on how long I mix for.   I often mix anywhere from 5 to 8 minutes after a very short (10-30 second) initial knead, with a 20 min break in between.   The only time I do 8 minute mixes is if I am doing a full sized batch (one using over a liter of water).   If I am doing 1L batches, its usually around the 6-7 minute range, and if its less than that I end up in the 5-6 minute range.   Hydration also plays a big roll, and if I am using a fairly wet dough my times go up, dryer dough, times go down.    Anyhow, I was surprised to read your post, as Marc (widespread pizza) and I have often interchanged about how the dough coming out of our bosch mixers using the throw it all in method is the most soft and supple dough we have ever felt, and how incredibly smooth it is when compared to the results we got with other mixers (even the santos!).   I spent years hand mixing, and a few more years doing wet kneads with a DLX,  and the pizza I make with my bosch is the softest (and least tough).  Definitely let me know if you have worked with the machine for a while and end up feeling like the slow addition of flour is still best.   Thanks, and if I did throw you off course, nice quick recovery!   

[Bobino414]

Chau and Alexi

I have an update for you on the rpm of the Bosch Universal Plus 800 watt:

Speed     Bosch               Kitchenaid
1.           140-170           132
2.           160-200           187
3.           200-230           266
4.           240-290           347
5.                                  410
6.                                  454
7.                                  525
8.                                  569
9.                                  645
10.                                752

Chau, since the Bosch has two arms, there is the potential for two "touches"  per rotation.  Additionally the use of the small batch adapter significantly increases the "knead efficiency" of the Bosch.

Bob

[Jackie Tran]

Excellent Bob!  Thank you very much sir.  After having tried the KA only once, I was convince that speed 1 is appropriately slow enough for kneading dough.  I wasn't sure if the Bosch would compare and it seems like it does.  I was also not aware that there is a small batch adapter although I think I recalled it being mention on here before. 

Does anyone have a link to it.  I will definitely buy it if and when i buy the Bosch. 

I have recently revisited kneading dough using my Cuisinart Food Processor and getting promising results.  Basically vary the # of pulses to the type of flour I use and the length of fermentation I plan on doing.   After anothe 2-3 wks of experimenting I'll make a decision on the bosch.  Thanks for all the help.

Chau

[Bobino414]

Chau

The small batch adapter is $6.  I purchased it from Breadtopia.  But there is a design flaw-the dough arms may strike the adapter.  So I have created a simple fix-if you buy the Bosch I will send you "the fix."
Another point of consideration.  I like to weigh all the ingredients in the mixing bowl but if your scale weigh tray is round and less than 5 3/4" in diameter the bowl will fall off the scale.  Boo !

Bob

[ponzu]

Ponzu, Sorry I have been away from the forum for a few weeks, and I just found this thread.    Maybe you will come up with a better method to use with the bosch (I hope you do!), but do me a favor and circle back around to my (easier faster) method one more time once you have removed any other variables.  I have tried a long slow wet knead with the bosch, and was not able to get a better product than I did with my simple throw it all in method.   I am happy to try my experiments again, though.   One thing I just want to make sure of is that you understand that its not always as simple as 8 min and its done.   First off, I have found that batch size has a large impact on how long I mix for.   I often mix anywhere from 5 to 8 minutes after a very short (10-30 second) initial knead, with a 20 min break in between.   The only time I do 8 minute mixes is if I am doing a full sized batch (one using over a liter of water).   If I am doing 1L batches, its usually around the 6-7 minute range, and if its less than that I end up in the 5-6 minute range.   Hydration also plays a big roll, and if I am using a fairly wet dough my times go up, dryer dough, times go down.    Anyhow, I was surprised to read your post, as Marc (widespread pizza) and I have often interchanged about how the dough coming out of our bosch mixers using the throw it all in method is the most soft and supple dough we have ever felt, and how incredibly smooth it is when compared to the results we got with other mixers (even the santos!).   I spent years hand mixing, and a few more years doing wet kneads with a DLX,  and the pizza I make with my bosch is the softest (and least tough).  Definitely let me know if you have worked with the machine for a while and end up feeling like the slow addition of flour is still best.   Thanks, and if I did throw you off course, nice quick recovery!   

Scott,

In no way did you throw me off course.  I bought the Bosch based in large part on your testimonial and I absolutely love it. 

I will point out that the Varasano wet knead is really not much more work,  I just add the last 25 % of flour after 5 minutes of wet kneading. and knead for another 3 to 4 minutes.

All of my batches have been > 1 L batches.

I think that the multitude of variables that i am playing with is affecting my results more than anything.  I will certainly try your method again once I establish the baseline dough that I want to start my quest for perfect dough on.  At that point  will change only one variable at a time and move off of it with each successive batch.

One thing that I would be interested in prior to retrying your method is clues that you look for in terms of when the mixing is done.  I have been looking for that soft smoothness in the dough.  The dough does not create a webless windowpane when i test after a 20 minute post mix rest though.   I realize that you rely on experience but any specific clues as to how you determine that your dough is done would be greatly appreciated.

-Alexi

[ponzu]

Chau and Alexi

I have an update for you on the rpm of the Bosch Universal Plus 800 watt:

Speed     Bosch               Kitchenaid
1.           140-170           132
2.           160-200           187
3.           200-230           266
4.           240-290           347
5.                                  410
6.                                  454

Bob are you measuring with or without dough?

I got 120 RPM with a full 10 pie batch in the mixer.

-Alexi
7.                                  525
8.                                  569
9.                                  645
10.                                752

Chau, since the Bosch has two arms, there is the potential for two "touches"  per rotation.  Additionally the use of the small batch adapter significantly increases the "knead efficiency" of the Bosch.

Bob