Author Topic: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version  (Read 1323 times)

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Offline fireman117

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Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« on: September 09, 2010, 03:45:49 PM »
Hi All,

I've been using the Lehmans recipe suggested to me by Peter (please see below), quite successfully for a while now for NY style, and I'd like to adapt it so I can make a sheeted pizza. (Wifes Request).  I usually age the dough for a minimum of 2-3 days, which gives it a very nice flavor, and I'm using Dakota Maid bread flour and SAF yeast. I plan on rolling it out with my pasta maker. So with that in mind, here's the questions...

1. Any suggestions on adjusting the recipe?
2. Is there a better way to roll it out evenly? I've tried a rolling pin, but not with too much success.
3. Do you think it would be possible to make up a couple extra pizzas and freeze them for future use?
4. Will the dough calculator work for this style?

As always, thank you for your suggestions.
Eric

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (166.15%):
 279.93 g  |  9.87 oz | 0.62 lbs
176.36 g  |  6.22 oz | 0.39 lbs
1.12 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
4.9 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.88 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
2.8 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
465.11 g | 16.41 oz | 1.03 lbs | TF = 0.106575
 
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.105; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%


Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2010, 05:02:57 PM »
Fireman117, does a sheeted pizza mean that you want to make a thinner version of your current NY style?  Just curious.
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline fireman117

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2010, 05:10:17 PM »
Hi Jet Deck,
Yes. Here in Milwaukee most pizza  joints use a sheeting machine to produce a fairly thin uniform crust. Also the better ones tend to age the dough a bit (at least I think they do)!

Anyway, I like the flavor of the cold fermented Lehmans, and I'm trying to adapt that flavor to a thin version thats workable.

Does that help?
Thanks,
Eric

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2010, 07:19:44 PM »
Eric,

I have never sheeted or made a rolling pin version of the Lehmann NY style dough but it may well be that a hydration of 63%, along with oil at 1%, will result in a dough that is hard to sheet out without using a lot of bench flour. I know that there are pizza operators who sheet a NY style dough but I suspect that they are using a much lower hydration value, possibly something in the range of 56-59%. You can see an example of how a general purpose dough can be made and sheeted in the series of Lehmann/Zeak videos at
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dtiOxq73uM&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dtiOxq73uM&amp;feature=related</a>
,
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVbIbTDiCJ0&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVbIbTDiCJ0&amp;feature=related</a>
and
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw_IQWlV52M&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw_IQWlV52M&amp;feature=related</a>
. In one of these videos, you can see how skins can be sheeted by machine. You might also check out the Tony Gemignani video at
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>
, where Tony, at 4:20 in the video, shows the use of a rolling pin to roll out a dough skin. However, as you will note at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8032.msg79723.html#msg79723, where I converted a dough recipe that Tony used in a FoodNetwork segment to baker's percent format, the hydration for that recipe is a bit over 58%.

In your case, you can try using your dough formulation as is, but you may later find it necessary to lower the hydration value to a point where the dough skins can be easily rolled out and without using an excessive amount of bench flour. I don't see any reason why you can't use the dough calculating tool to calculate any of the numbers you choose to use.

It is possible to freeze pizzas but not all methods produce the same results. You might want to take a look at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11201.msg101216.html#msg101216 and, in particular, my post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11201.msg101457.html#msg101457 and also the links referenced in my post. If you are thinking instead of freezing completely baked pizzas, that is also possible although I have never frozen entire baked pizzas. I have frozen only leftover slices. However, I am sure that if you do a forum search you should find more information on freezing entire baked pizzas (or even fully dressed unbaked pizzas) if that is what you have in mind.

Peter


Offline buzz

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2010, 07:29:55 PM »
You might want to try AP (which IMO makes a superior crust, anyway) or a dough relaxer. I use AP with a fairly high hydration and never have any problems rolling out the dough with a rolling pin to produce a very thin crust. Of course, a sheeter would be ideal!

Fleischmann's makes a "pizza dough yeast" which contains a dough relaxer--might be worth a try!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 07:41:54 PM by buzz »

Offline fireman117

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2010, 02:38:48 PM »
Thank you Peter and Buzz for the info.
Buzz, can you tell me what AP is?
Peter, Thanks, I'll check out the links when I get home tonight. I want to get the dough mixed up tonight so I can bake on Sunday!  I can adjust the hydration lower, no problem, but do I need more or less oil. I'm pretty new at this and I'm still feeling my way around. Especially concerning how the ingredients/temp/time/etc. all interact!
Thank you,
Eric

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2010, 03:36:03 PM »
Eric,

"AP" stands for all-purpose flour. In the early days of pizza making in New York City, all-purpose flour and bread flour were the primary flours used to make the NY style, and no doubt there are still some NYC pizza operators who continue to use all-purpose flour for that style. However, I would say that the bulk of NYC pizza operators who specialize in the NY style, especially the "street" style or pizzas sold by the slice, use bromated high-gluten flours, such as All Trumps, Kyrol, Bouncer, etc. High-gluten flours started to be used for the NY style sometime in the 1980's. Before then, high-gluten flours were used mainly to make bagels and some breads. If you opt to use all-purpose flour, you may want to lower the hydration by a few percent to be more in line with the rated absorption value for all-purpose flour. You can always increase the hydration in future efforts once you feel that you can handle the dough at higher hydration values.

I don't see any need to change the amount of oil in the dough formulation you posted for purposes of transitioning to a sheeted/rolled version.

Peter

Offline fireman117

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2010, 02:58:35 PM »
OK Guys,
Here we go. I'm going to try going with the AP flour (Pillsbury), and a 58% hydration. Other than that, I didn't change a thing. I took a guess and used a thickness factor of .105 for the calculation. So I'm kind of winging it there. Tomorrow, I think I'll try rolling the dough out in the pasta maker and somehow join the edges. I'm going to bake it in a rectangular cookie sheet with a lip so maybe just overlapping the seams will work.

Going to make up a simple sauce used sparingly with 6 in 1 tomatoes, and dress it in Star Dairy Mozz, which I think is really excellent, maybe some pepperoni, some fresh basil and sun dried Roma tomatoes from our garden.

I'll post some pictures Monday disaster or not!

Thanks again everyone for the suggestions.

Eric

Offline fireman117

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2010, 04:17:40 PM »
Hi Everyone,
Just finished and the dough turned out beautifully. Not at all sticky and kneeded out easily at the end.
I took our part and placed it in the fridge for tomorrow night, and left some out for the dog's pizza tonight.

It's one of our 3 Chows Birthday so they get to split a cheese and pepperoni pizza 3 ways!

Offline fireman117

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2010, 08:15:57 PM »
Hi All,

Here's the results from using the modified Lehmann recipe.
The dough was a little difficult to roll out and the pasta maker machine did not work at all!
But the pies tasted very good and the crust had a nice firm chewy texture.

I made 1 with Pepperoni and onion and the other with sun dried Roma tomatoes and Basil from our garden, and a little fresh Parmesan grated over the top.  Both had a light sauce with 6-in-1 ground lightly seasoned not cooked. and Star Dairy whole milk Mozzarella made here in WI., which I'm really liking!

Both Pies were cooked on a Gas Weber grill and finished under the gas oven broiler.

Any comments on how to get the crust to cooperate? I rarely have problems when I hand toss this recipe
Thanks,
Eric
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 08:18:22 PM by fireman117 »


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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2010, 08:49:54 PM »
Eric,

I assume that you used the dough formulation you posted in the original post. Is that correct? If so, did you double the recipe for two pizzas? If so, when you used the dough calculating tool, did you use the Rectangular option? If so, what pan dimensions did you use in the tool, and when you made the dough, were the dough balls round and placed in round storage containers? If so, did you then try to roll out the round dough balls into rectangular shapes? If so, did you re-knead, re-ball or re-shape or otherwise molest the dough balls before trying to roll them out?

Peter






Offline fireman117

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2010, 10:55:01 AM »
Hi Peter,
I'll answer these in order for you.

I used the original formulation except, I used Gold Medal All Purpose flour and a hydration of 58%. The recipe was calculated for two pies with a thickness factor of .105. I used the rectangular option, with the dimensions of 14X10.  I made the dough per recipe using the Kitchen Aid and I hand kneaded at the end for about 30 seconds. I put the round dough balls in 2 round storage containers and immediately refridgerated them for about 30 hours.
The last part is a little tricky so I'll go slow.
After aging no other manipulation was used except for the following:
With pizza #1, the basil and Roma, I tried to use the pasta maker on about 1/4 of the ball before giving up. I then rejoined it back to the original ball and attempted to roll it out in a rectangular shape. This is the pizza with the most issues. The dough kept trying to retract back, like a rubber band. If you look at the picture you can see the shape is irregular, and it took some effort (with my wife holding on to the pan, and me swearing a blue streak!), to get it looking that good.

Pizza #2, the Pepperoni, worked much better but I still met some resistance when rolling it out which surprised me, because when I hand toss, generally it doesn't take much to get it out to size.

I like the Lehmann recipe and would like to do some more experimenting with this style, and maybe you could give it a try. The taste and texture is real good, and similar to what other quality pizzerias in Milwaukee offer.

Thank you,
Eric


Offline fazzari

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2010, 11:42:04 AM »
Eric
I think you will find that the secret to sheeting a crust is to go slowly....let the dough sheet rest a few moments in between rolling it.  It might take 10 minutes, but the rest time is just as important as the rolling time.....this will make your job easier and will give you a more tender crust because you will not fight the dough.  Another suggestion is to sheet your dough after your first rising, and then refrigerate for as long as you want...you can then roll it thinner again if need be the day you bake it.
As for feezing...I freeze skins all the time without much loss in quality.  As for freezing a baked product, I find that parbaking a fully dressed pizza, and then freezing, will give the best results because the act of reheating the pizza is also finishing the par baked product to where it would have been if you first baked it fully.  It's like the pizza is fresh from the oven.

John

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2010, 02:18:36 PM »
Eric,

Since John (fazzari) is a professional pizza operator who uses sheeting equipment in his business, and is constanty developing new and improved ways of doing things, he knows whereof he speaks and offers you good advice. To what John has said, you might also consider using a rectangular dough storage container, preferably one with one dimension longer than the other to conform to your rectangular pan that also has one dimension longer than the other. You might also consider warming up the dough before rolling that out. That is an idea I borrowed from John when I was trying to roll out skins for a cracker style pizza. In my case, I used a proofing box, as discussed at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49138.html#msg49138, but using a slightly warmed oven should also work. The hydration for my cracker style doughs was much lower than what you used for your Lehmann dough but warming the Lehmann dough should still work.

John also gives you good advice on freezing skins and par-baked pizzas. If you decide to try any of the freezing methods described in this thread, including those mentioned by John, I hope you will report back on your results.

Peter

Offline fireman117

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2010, 05:04:40 PM »
Peter,
All good ideas I never would have thought of . Just one thing when you mention warming, do you mean warming to room temp, (which is what I do now). or warm in a slightly warm oven? Also could you suggest a hydration percentage?

And when I get to the frozen part, (probably a a few more experiments down the line), I'll be sure to respond. I appreciate all the help from everyone here and I'd like to contribute too.

Thank you,
Eric

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2010, 05:17:11 PM »
Just one thing when you mention warming, do you mean warming to room temp, (which is what I do now). or warm in a slightly warm oven? Also could you suggest a hydration percentage?

Eric,

For now, I would stay with the hydration value you have been using. I used a dough-warming temperature of around 110-120 degrees F but the dough was quite dense because of its low hydration. I think you can use a lower dough warming temperature and perhaps a shorter warm-up time with a dough of higher hydration. I don't recall using my proofing box with a high hydration dough so you may have to experiment with the temperature and warm-up time to use. Off the top of my head, I think a combination of 100 degrees F for about a half to three-quarters of an hour might work.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 05:22:04 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Need Help Transistioning NY Style dough to a sheeted version
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2010, 05:28:50 PM »
Eric,

I forgot to mention it, but if a proofing box is of interest to you, you can see the modification I made to mine at Reply 69 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49752.html#msg49752.

Peter


 

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