Author Topic: fairmont bagels, Montreal  (Read 1617 times)

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Offline Williamgag

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2010, 10:41:58 PM »
Ok forget it :P Yes they boil them ... I messed up lol. What's strange that I haven't noticed before is that they're bake on their peel. They have a wood fired oven but they don't cook it on the oven floor. That's strange though...


Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2010, 10:45:32 PM »
Norma,  I hope you do try them they are really fun.  WG ,  thank you, I knew the boil them.  and look again.  they start them on the peel,  but finish them on the floor.  Thanks for all the info.  -marc

Offline Williamgag

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2010, 04:41:49 PM »
check that out I cannot actually explain on what they cook them, we see it around the end

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2010, 05:53:32 PM »
The skin on a bagel always reminds me of a skin on a pretzel.  The are boiled for 30 seconds in a formula of water and baking soda, to set the skin.  10 cups water to 2/3 cup baking soda.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12021.msg114456.html#msg114456


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Offline Williamgag

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2010, 06:00:11 PM »
Montreal bagels are boiled in a water/honey/kosher salt solution

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2010, 06:39:26 PM »
WG,  cool,  I will lay off the malt,  and add the salt.  Thanks for that tip.  -marc

Offline norma427

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2010, 08:07:31 PM »
Marc,

I am trying to study about these bagels before I try to make any.  Here are two videos on Fairmont bagels.  Are any of these videos useful for learning anything on how to make the bagels?





danrt50 has three videos about making Montreal bagels.  This is one of the videos. The other 2 videos are under the same link if you click on 44 videos by danrt50.



In this article it says the dough is boiled in honey-sweetened water and then dipped into poppy-seeds or sesame seeds before baking. http://www.seligman.org.il/seligman_bagel.html
There is a recipe at the bottom of this page for Montreal bagels.

Is this the way you are making your bagels?

Norma

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2010, 08:15:08 PM »
Thats so sick at the 2 minute mark in the first video when he takes out all the bagels and throws them into the crate. One of the coolest thing I have seen in my life.

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2010, 08:28:06 PM »
BSO,  saw that in person repeatedly,  it was sick!  I have a better video of that somewhere.  Serious skills. -marc


Offline Williamgag

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2010, 08:34:47 PM »
I should ask them to make a full video of the process and post it here ?

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2010, 08:51:32 PM »
WG,  yes you should ,  but they won't I am sure.  Norma.  just watched those videos.  he seems to go through some extra steps.  The most interesting part of this process is that they do not allow a rise time after forming,  as most other bagel recpies do.  Thats the beauty of it.  Just let it bulk ferment till double.  Then roll go straight from boil,  drain for a second, seed, to oven.  Cook hot too it makes a difference 450-500 on a stone about 15 mins,  do not over cook.  BTW his dough is about 3-5% too dry and is shows.  Funny thing too.  if he had seeded the bagels,  they would never had stuck,  because they release a bit of oil as they cook,  and the dough never touches the stone.   Good luck,  and report back.  I know you can do this first try.  make sure you have some good cream cheese,  and some great butter,  or you will be mad.  -marc

Offline Williamgag

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2010, 08:53:56 PM »
I'm a pretty good client so I'll try at least lol

Offline norma427

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2010, 09:07:12 PM »
Marc,

Thanks for the extra tips.  I am not sure if I will be successful the first time.  :-D

Norma

Offline DannyG

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2010, 09:36:26 AM »
I can't find non-diastatic malt powder locally and hate doing it mail order as shipping more than doubles the cost. I have found malt syrup at the local Whole Foods. Would there be any noticeable difference if the syrup was used instead of the powder? Does anyone have any ideas of what type of local store might carry non-diastatic powder?

Offline Matthew

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2010, 09:49:39 AM »
I can't find non-diastatic malt powder locally and hate doing it mail order as shipping more than doubles the cost. I have found malt syrup at the local Whole Foods. Would there be any noticeable difference if the syrup was used instead of the powder? Does anyone have any ideas of what type of local store might carry non-diastatic powder?

Malt syrup is a suitable substitute & will work just fine.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2010, 10:43:40 AM »
I can't find non-diastatic malt powder locally and hate doing it mail order as shipping more than doubles the cost. I have found malt syrup at the local Whole Foods. Would there be any noticeable difference if the syrup was used instead of the powder? Does anyone have any ideas of what type of local store might carry non-diastatic powder?

DannyG,

Matt is right but see Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12295.msg116672.html#msg116672. You may have to adjust the amount of syrup since it does not weigh the same as the dry form by volume.

Out of curiosity, where did you find an online source?

Peter

Offline DannyG

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2010, 11:44:48 AM »
The only place I found was King Arthur. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/non-diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz
It's only $5.50 for a pound but costs over $6 to ship. If I really get into bagels maybe I'll order. How would I figure out the conversion?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2010, 12:31:41 PM »
The only place I found was King Arthur. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/non-diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz
It's only $5.50 for a pound but costs over $6 to ship. If I really get into bagels maybe I'll order. How would I figure out the conversion?

DannyG,

I took a stab at converting widespreadpizza's recipe to two different forms, one calling for dry non-diastatic barley malt and the other for non-diastatic barley malt syrup. I showed the two dough formulations earlier in this thread at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11832.msg113724.html#msg113724. In doing the conversions, I used 2.5% for both forms of malt. For the barley malt syrup, my conversion was based on the Eden Foods organic barley malt syrup such as shown at http://www.edenfoods.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=26_50&products_id=104050&ref_src=google&ref_id=condiments&gclid=COCsq4OemaUCFQpZ2godOE0ZKQ.

Since I did not have any conversion numbers for converting one form into the other, and could not find them at the nutritiondata.com website, I called Eden this morning and spoke to a customer service rep. She did not have any conversion factors either, but I was able to have her tell me what percent water is in their product. She said that the Eden organic barley malt syrup is 79-80% solids. By my reckoning, that should mean that the water content should be 20-21%. On that basis, if a recipe calls for the dry barley malt and you want to substitute the barley malt syrup on a weight basis, technically you should reduce the amount of formula water by 20-21% of the weight of the barley malt syrup. In the dough formulations I posted in Reply 10, that would be 3.68-4 grams. That is so small relative to the amounts of everything else, including eggs with questionable water content, that I wouldn't worry about adjusting the formula water (the difference is only about 0.3%).

In the course of my conversation with the Eden customer rep, she did tell me that the conversion between their barley malt syrup and table sugar is 1 1/3 cups of their barley malt syrup for one cup of table sugar. Also, the recipe water should be reduced by 1/2 cup. That conversion doesn't directly apply here but I thought it might be a handy piece of information for future reference in other applications.

Peter

Offline DannyG

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2010, 01:42:46 PM »
Thanks Peter, I'm going to try the recipe this weekend. I'll post the results.

Offline bicster

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2010, 10:19:15 PM »
Finally got around to making the dough.  Boy is it stiff!  Will post pics tomorrow, in the mean time:


Offline DannyG

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2010, 09:24:44 AM »
So here is my first attempt. I have never had Montreal bagels so I don't know how they are suppose to taste. These were very light with a nice texture. I thought these were pretty good for my first attempt although I do like a bagel with more chew.

I used Pete-zza proportions posted earlier in this thread. I used regular KA bread flour. The 12.7% in the bag with a blue label. I'm not sure what KA "Special" bread flour is and I couldn't find anything like it on their website. My oven is a GE Electric and I cooked at 450 degrees directly on a Fibrement stone. The stone temperature was 475 degrees. I also use Eaden's barley malt  syrup instead of powder.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2010, 09:50:50 AM »
I used Pete-zza proportions posted earlier in this thread. I used regular KA bread flour. The 12.7% in the bag with a blue label. I'm not sure what KA "Special" bread flour is and I couldn't find anything like it on their website.

DannyG,

"Special" is the name that King Arthur uses for its bread flour (with 12.7% protein) sold to professional bakers. You can see the specs at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html. Your King Arthur bread flour is the same flour.

Peter

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2010, 11:03:07 AM »
Danny,  nice job there!  thanks for testing that out.  I guess it works.  Maybe you need to use high gluten or some vital wheat gluten to get some mpre chew if thats the way you like them.  I like they they are light and not chewy myself.  Either way they look very good to me.  -marc

Offline DannyG

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2010, 12:19:26 PM »
King Arthur has a chewy bagel recipe I might try. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/chewy-bagels-recipe  It requires a starter and for some reason it requires steaming the bagels instead of boiling. Maybe that is what gives it the chew.

...I just did a quick search and came across this... http://www.chow.com/food-news/54466/how-to-make-the-ultimate-bagel/
It includes a nice procedure page and a recipe. It's and interesting overview and has a quote appropriate to this forum. ďA bagel should be like a pizza crust at best: It should be chew that gives way to tender bread dough.Ē

The author says that steaming is a newer and faster way but boiling is better. I may try this instead of the KA one.

Offline norma427

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2010, 12:34:43 PM »
Marc,

Thanks so much for starting this thread about the Fairmont bagels.  :) The bagels are so light and airy.  I mixed my dough yesterday morning and although I didnít use IDY in my bagels, they were delicious.  I never tasted bagels like these before.. I used the milk kefir added to leaven my bagels and used different flour.  I didnít make the whole batch.  I left the dough ferment for about 24 hrs. at room temperature. 

I only had one problem while making the bagels.  While I was trying to roll them out I also had put the malt powder and honey on the stove to boil.  I believe you can guess what happened.  My mixture boiled over the top and made a mess on my stove.  :-D I would have thought the boiling of the raw bagel would then affect the rise and kill the yeast, but I guess that didnít happen. In my opinion the bagels tasted better than the Tartine Bread I made last week.  This recipe is a keeper for me.  I also had one bagel with Philadelphia Cream Cheese.

Thanks Peter for posting the formula for me to go by. I needed to make some adjustments because I was using the milk kefir.

Pictures below

Norma


 

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