Author Topic: Room temp with cake yeast  (Read 7766 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2010, 10:51:58 AM »
I think that your dough is blown.  With caputo flour you are not going to get a long room temp ferment without over doing the dough.  Only 6 to 8 hours at room temp.  Any longer and you start to break down.  I think if you cooked sooner or did a retarded ferment in the fridge you would have been better off.  Your percentages are spot on for your recipe.  I wouldn't change it at all.  You should also check your dough temp at the end of mixing.  It may be too hot.  Using cold water may help keep the dough temp down so you don't overdo your ferment.  If you want to do a longer room temp ferment you need to use a stronger flour.

utahdave (Dave) makes some good points. The Caputo 00 pizzeria flour has a "W" value ("deformation energy factor") of 240-260 (see Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25328/topicseen.html#msg25328). Some time ago, I found a W table at the pizza.it website and later reproduced it at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545.html#msg42545. If that table is correct and accurate, then the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour would have a maturation period of about 6-9 hours, or about what Dave said. Marco usually frowned on such a short fermentation window because of digestion issues, especially if high protein 00 flours like the Caputo Red (rosso), San Felice or Manitoba were used below their rated fermentation windows. Of course, he also used natural leavenings (Crisceto) to get the results he was looking for, with much longer fermentation windows.

John could try using a blend of Caputo Red (the specs of which are also shown in Reply 17 referenced above) or San Felice and the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and thereby extend the window of fermentation. There are also other ways of adapting a given dough to the desired window of fermentation, as I discussed at Reply 15 referenced above and also at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5496.msg46487/topicseen.html#msg46487. However, I found in general that using colder water to delay the fermentation had only limited value, especially where I live in Texas. I found that any dough I make and ferment at room temperature warms up very quickly, giving me only a short extension of the fermentation period.

In my experience, one of the biggest risks in long room temperature fermentations is that the proteolytic enzymes in the flour can degrade the gluten structure. I believe that is the "break down" that Dave is referring to in his post.

Peter


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2010, 12:50:54 PM »
Dave and Peter - I will see what happens with hydration at 60% using a time window of 8 hours. Honestly, the dough did not look, feel, or taste overblown in the second bake, but that may just be my ignorance. In fact, I thought up until around the 8 hour mark that there was not enough yeast in the formulation because the balls barely expanded at all. But it will be interesting to see what happens with the shorter window - and it makes sense that I might need to add stronger flour for a longer ferment.

Thanks again for the help.

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2010, 02:50:40 PM »
John,

According to what scott r surmised in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8176.msg70852/topicseen.html#msg70852, the Neapolitan pizzaioli work with an ambient fermentation window of about 7 hours. That would be using commercial yeast.

Unless you have a way of measuring a dough's expansion, it can be hard to tell from visual examination alone, especially if a dough ball flattens and spreads during its fermentation. But that shouldn't deter you from experimenting with higher values of cake yeast if you are suspicious that the dough isn't rising enough.

I might add that Marco's sourdough formulation that I referenced earlier in this thread in Reply 9 was, according to Marco, exemplary only, and not the one that he was using himself at the time. I think he might have been saving his recipe, or some version of it, for the book that he was planning at the time. Regrettably, that book never came to pass.

Peter

Offline utahdave

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2010, 09:03:43 PM »
Good to see someone out there knows what a W value is, which is better way of understanding flour.  Yes, Peter is correct when I speak of the dough breaking down.  I would suggest that if you are using blue caputo that you might consider doing a retarded ferment in the fridge and let it mature overnight.  This helps with development of the dough for digestion as referred to in Peter's post. Typically the higher the W value of the flour, the longer it needs to ferment/develop.

David

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2010, 06:49:13 AM »
David - My normal dough recipe is a cold ferment using Caputo 00 pizzeria. This is really an attempt to replicate the conditions in a Naples pizzeria, using the same ingredients/workflow. Unless I am mistaken, many, many Naples pizzerias use caputo blue for a room temp ferment. That being said I do believe that some of them supplement with stronger flour.

John
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 06:52:12 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2010, 07:37:47 PM »
I wanted to discuss a few things I have been investigating regarding fermentation time. What spurred this was a reheated slice of the 2nd batch in this thread (it was not overblown). The idea that the 'W" number of a flour would inform the maturation period of fermentation makes somewhat sense to me, but only when the variables of percentage of yeast, temperature and fermentation time are taken into account.

"W", as I have found, is a numerical indication of the energy needed to make a bubble of air in the dough as big as it could go before it burst. The dough that is made for the test has a hydration of unknown value, unless the manufacturer presents it. This is obviously an indication of the physical strength of the flour. It would make sense that this would indirectly correlate to fermentation time, but only when you have constants involved to bridge the gap - such as amount of yeast, hydration, temperature, etc. So I see why an attempt was made by someone to graph maturation period based on the "W", but it is, at best, an approximation that does not take into account how one determines that a ball of dough has "matured."

The numbers that were presented here, starting at reply 12, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42521.html#msg42521, seem to be based on 3-5 grams of yeast per liter of water at 75 degrees. So the percentage of yeast is .3 - .5 percent. Assuming that it is fresh yeast used in the test, those numbers are more/double the amount I am using (.25 weight of water). So I believe that I can use the 10-12 hour window at 68 degrees without hesitation. Plus, it did not make sense to me that pizzerias in Naples need to serve all the day's dough within a 3 hour period because the dough would overblow. But I will post my results, good or bad, when I do the bake this weekend. I am not a scientist, so all of my assumptions/assertions may be wrong.

John
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 03:25:44 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2010, 08:08:28 PM »
John,

I remember having an exchange with Marco some time ago about pizza operators in Naples storing dough balls in the cooler, which was completely contrary to the way that dough was made and used by the Neapolitan pizzaioli. He later mentioned that a cooler might be used to temporarily preserve dough balls, as he pointed out at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10507.msg93091/topicseen.html#msg93091.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2010, 08:25:54 PM »
John,

I remembered that scott r also talked about using coolers in Naples. After searching for his post, I found it in the same thread as referenced in my last post, along with some other posts on the subject.

Peter

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2010, 08:32:23 PM »
Yes, Peter, thank you. I was just reading what Scott said about 3 batches per day. That would explain why they may use a shorter window and a higher amount of fresh yeast (in the 3-5 gram range per liter). In fact, I was also reading a jump off thread, and Marco talks about no one measuring flour, and basing formulations on 25g cubes of yeast. So the window they use may be based heavily on the size of flour bag and the size of the packaged yeast.

John


Offline andreguidon

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2010, 08:55:18 PM »
This is a PDF brochure for 5stagione, the flour that i use.
http://www.molinoagugiaro.it/italiano/5stagioni-pdf/farine.pdf

see where it says assorbimento, that means absorption and there is a % value right by the side that is the ideal hydration for the flour and what they used in the test http://www.youtube.com/user/molinocaputo#p/u/22/64BVy76G0l8

this was something that we talk allot about in the VPN course.
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Offline JConk007

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2010, 11:15:19 PM »
Andre ,
Thanks for posting. Do you cake yeast? I Dont want to highjack this cake yeast thread, however I just picked up a bag of the 5 stangioni. I was just about to put up a pic and whala !  I was usure if it was meant for pizza but if you are using it, your pies allways look great. A friend said he could get me anything so I asked him to get me Caputo 00 . He ownes a shop rite. Yes the whole store, and this is what he came up, with so I assume it will be no problem to get. Will try shortly any tips, tricks thoughts on this flour ? have you ever done a side by side vs.  the Caputo 00?
Whats your current formulation with this flour
Thanks Andre!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 11:17:47 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline andreguidon

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2010, 06:25:48 AM »
Hi John,

what kind of 5stagione did you get ? i use the blue one here... this flour was approved by the VPN this year and was highly recommended by Giulio Adriani (olio pizza e piu) , and i dint have a side by side with caputo cause caputo will start being imported in november.

let me know wich one did you get so i could help you with the formula...
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2010, 07:29:22 PM »
Here is the formulation I used tonight:

Flour (100%):    1030.99 g  |  36.37 oz | 2.27 lbs
Water (60%):    618.59 g  |  21.82 oz | 1.36 lbs
CY (.15%):    1.55 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs |
Salt (2.8%):    28.87 g | 1.02 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.01 tsp | 2 tbsp
Total (162.95%):   1680 g | 59.26 oz | 3.7 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:           280 g | 9.88 oz | 0.62 lbs

Results were mixed again. At the 10 hour mark the dough was slightly overblown. But with this hydration I did not get the same amazing flavor. The dough was extremely pliable, and very hard to keep in a round shape. So after all my hopeful introspection, it seems I am still far off in getting a 10 hour room temp with caputo. I think I am going back to my cold ferment with IDY!

John

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2010, 09:37:58 PM »
the dough looks good... but the baked pizza looks like you had a hard time to open them... looks like you needed allot of flour... was it too soft ?? did it rip very easy ?
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2010, 08:13:17 AM »
Andre, the dough was extremely pliable and did not tear. It needed very little flour to shape, but was so soft that it was hard to keep it the shape I wanted.

John

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2010, 10:46:28 AM »
at 60% it was hard to handle ? that weird.... have you tried adding some strong flour to the mix ?

next bake ill try some cake yeast..... and will share results...

the pizzas look allot like UPN http://www.flickr.com/photos/etalk/4995062030/in/set-72157624841474001/
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 10:55:33 AM by andreguidon »
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2010, 07:21:29 PM »
I had some really great results tonight, reducing the CY to .1 and extending the room temp rise with a bulk phase:

Flour (100%):    1037.68 g  |  36.6 oz | 2.29 lbs
Water (59%):    612.23 g  |  21.6 oz | 1.35 lbs
CY (.1%):            1.04 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs |
Salt (2.8%):    29.05 g | 1.02 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.05 tsp | 2.02 tbsp
Total (161.9%):   1680 g | 59.26 oz | 3.7 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:           280 g | 9.88 oz | 0.62 lbs

Makes 6 balls. Ambient temp was 65 degrees. 12 hour bulk rise, 6 hours balled. Dough was like a dream - light, tender, slightly crispy, rich tasting. I will up the hydration to 60 next time. But all in all, I think I have the flow down for a room temp CY. After reading many posts by Marco - and deciding his preferred hydration was too high for my oven - I have found the balance I am looking for. I also experimented with NOT avoiding the rim while shaping, and I got a puffy, wide open crumb.

Pizzas: #1 sopressata. #2 brussel sprouts and olives. #3 Casa Barone piennolo tomatoes and bufula.

John
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 07:23:21 PM by dellavecchia »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2010, 07:28:19 PM »
John,

Great job. It looks like you aced it. What do you now do for an encore?

Peter

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2010, 07:34:23 PM »
John,

What do you now do for an encore?

Peter

I move on to cracker crust, of course!

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2010, 07:38:51 PM »
I move on to cracker crust, of course!

John,

Don't laugh. I remember someone over at the PMQ Think Tank once asking how to make cracker style pizzas in a wood fired oven. I don't think he got any replies.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2010, 08:27:23 PM »
Those look really really awesome John.  Great job.   I love the look.  Very balanced on the leoparding.   A big plus you also got an open airy crumb and a great taste.  Any pictures of the crumb?   0.1% cake yeast gets me 6-7 hours at 75F.  Good to know it'll go 12 hour at 65F. 

Chau

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2010, 09:37:31 PM »
Thanks Chau! Crumb on the bufala/piennolo:

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2010, 09:54:04 PM »
GREAT JOB John !! you realy inspired me to try it, use CY... the pies look perfect !!

is thats just caputo pizzeria ?
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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2010, 10:47:17 PM »
 Nice looking pies John!

Offline jjdec05

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Re: Room temp with cake yeast
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2010, 11:33:21 PM »
Looks great! 


 

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