Author Topic: Easy first time pizza dough recipies  (Read 13096 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2010, 11:39:20 PM »


Offline Vindii

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2010, 09:52:55 PM »
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8671.msg75076.html#msg75076

I read that post and I have the same problem as the others that posted.  My buttons look different than the video.  I'll have to post the pics as links for now.  I can attach them but I don't see a way to add them to the post.

Pizza came out great.  I formed this one by hand instead of rolling like I did on the first couple I made.  I think that made a big difference in the outside crust.  This was the best tasting dough I have made.  We ate the whole thing.  I cooked it about 1-2 minutes too long I think.  The outside crust had just a little too much chew to it.  I cooked the first couple I did for 6-8 minute but after 8 minute I thought this one needed one more so I cooked it for 9.  Should have pulled it 1-2 sooner.  Still was great though.  I think I will make this one again a few times to get the process down a little better then I'll start trying some other doughs.

Many thanks to everyone here and especially Pete.  With you converting the recipe and pointing to good threads to get started it really made this come out good.  I honestly never knew there was this much involved in pizza dough.  I still have a bunch to learn but I'm well on my way.

Here are the pics.


(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx324/Vindiii/th_P11106332.jpg)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx324/Vindiii/th_P1110635.jpg)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx324/Vindiii/th_P11106372.jpg)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx324/Vindiii/th_P11106382.jpg)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx324/Vindiii/th_P11106422.jpg)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx324/Vindiii/th_P11106502.jpg)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx324/Vindiii/th_P11106512.jpg)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 09:54:28 PM by Vindii »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2010, 10:06:42 PM »
Attaching is the only way to add photos to a post:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2010, 10:10:54 PM »
Vindii,

Considering all of the obstacles that you had to get past, I think you did very well. Congratulations on a job well done. With practice, you will only become more proficient.

In due course, you can decide on whether to get a digital scale, mixer and other paraphernalia that make pizza making easier.

Peter


Offline Vindii

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2010, 11:06:27 PM »
Vindii,

Considering all of the obstacles that you had to get past, I think you did very well. Congratulations on a job well done. With practice, you will only become more proficient.

In due course, you can decide on whether to get a digital scale, mixer and other paraphernalia that make pizza making easier.

Peter



Thanks Pete.  All the credit goes to you.

What is the ideal temp to cook this at?  This set-up only gets up to 480 degrees but the gage is above the top stone so the bottom stone is probably hotter.  I have another grill that will get up to 850.  It is a bubba keg and is similar to a big green egg.  I could get stone for that if the higher temp is better.

Offline Vindii

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2010, 12:17:44 AM »
Here are the pics.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 12:21:04 AM by Vindii »

Offline Vindii

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2010, 12:21:46 AM »
A few more.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2010, 10:38:21 AM »
What is the ideal temp to cook this at?  This set-up only gets up to 480 degrees but the gage is above the top stone so the bottom stone is probably hotter.  I have another grill that will get up to 850.  It is a bubba keg and is similar to a big green egg.  I could get stone for that if the higher temp is better.

Vindii,

The only oven I have is a standard unmodified electric oven. When I bake a 14" pizza in that oven, I preheat a Cordierite pizza stone on a lower oven rack position for about an hour at about 500-525 degrees F, which is about as high as I can get it. It takes about 6-7 minutes to bake the pizza. I can get a higher temperature if I use the stone higher in the oven, along with turning on the broiler or doing other things, but that is not something I do very often. Professionals who specialize in the NY style with deck ovens most typically use an oven temperature of around 450-525 degrees F, depending on the hydration, the type of flour used, the crust characteristics sought for, what customers want, etc.

Peter

Offline Vindii

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2010, 10:52:59 AM »
Vindii,

The only oven I have is a standard unmodified electric oven. When I bake a 14" pizza in that oven, I preheat a Cordierite pizza stone on a lower oven rack position for about an hour at about 500-525 degrees F, which is about as high as I can get it. It takes about 6-7 minutes to bake the pizza. I can get a higher temperature if I use the stone higher in the oven, along with turning on the broiler or doing other things, but that is not something I do very often. Professionals who specialize in the NY style with deck ovens most typically use an oven temperature of around 450-525 degrees F, depending on the hydration, the type of flour used, the crust characteristics sought for, what customers want, etc.

Peter

Sound like there is not much advantage to cooking at higher temps. Maybe I'll try the Keg for fun.  I could also add a touch of smoke flavor using the Keg.  May get it more of a wood oven type of flavor.  What is a common wood used in wood fire ovens?


Online Tscarborough

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2010, 11:11:57 AM »
Cooking at high heat has 2 advantages (actually, 1 advantage and one difference).  The advantage is that at high temps you can pump out the pizzas, 1-2 minutes per pie.  Another is that the high quick heat cooks the pie differently.  Not so much the crust, but the cheese and toppings.  I like the cheese at 900 degrees better than at 500, but prefer the crust at 500 in general.

Since I usually cook 1 or 2 pies in the kitchen oven but 6 or 8 in the WFO it all works out.  I do find myself letting the oven cool more than I did when I first started using it.  My sweet spot is walls around 750 degrees and 600 on the floor with a 2-3 minute bake.

Offline Vindii

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2010, 12:30:34 PM »
When people talk about how long dough can sit in the fridge what happens if it sits too long?  Does it go bad?  Does it get hard?  How would I know if I leave it sit too long?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2010, 01:48:35 PM »
When people talk about how long dough can sit in the fridge what happens if it sits too long?  Does it go bad?  Does it get hard?  How would I know if I leave it sit too long?

Vindii,

Eventually all doughs will become unusable. When the dough becomes unusable will depend on the type of dough and the dough formulation, especially the amount of yeast, the mode of fermentation (e.g., at room temperature, in the refrigerator, or some combination of both), and the temperature of the dough as it ferments. Sometimes there are visual cues that the dough is about to become unusable, such as a very puffy and soft dough with a profusion of fermentation bubbles and with little or no resistance to the touch, or possibly a slight darkening of the dough with spotting, but sometimes there are few visual cues. Usually the dough becomes unusable when it overferments. That typically happens when the yeast runs out of food (natural or added sugars). Also, with a long fermentation, there are enzymes in the dough, called protease enzymes, that attack the gluten structure over time, causing the gluten to become degraded to the point where the dough becomes highly extensible. When this happens, the water bond with protein is broken, releasing water into the dough, making it wet or slack or "clammy". Such a dough can become hard to handle and it is not uncommon for the dough to develop tears when trying to form it into a skin. Attempts to re-knead or re-ball the dough to restore its physical integrity and character will usually be fruitless, and you are likely to end up with a dough ball that is overly elastic and almost impossible to open up to form a skin. If one is able to actually form a skin out of the dough and to make a pizza out of it, the finished crust is likely to be light in color, because of insufficient residual sugars to contribute to crust coloration, and on the cracker-y side with sub-par oven spring (you need the proper combination of acids in the dough and residual sugar to get good oven spring). The crust is likely to have good flavor, however, because of all of the byproducts of long fermentation that contribute to good crust flavor, as well as aroma.

I often suggest that newbies intentionally let a dough go downhill so that they can see what the phenomena are that are at play as a dough ferments over a long period of time. A good experiment is to make several dough balls and use them one at a time, daily, until they run out, and observe the differences from one pizza to another. For such an experiment to be useful, it is best to make the pizzas identically as much as possible, including the types and amounts of sauce, cheeses and toppings. Otherwise, there will be too many variables to be able to make meaningful comparisons. You might even let the last dough ball expire on its own so that you can see what a dying dough looks and behaves like. Sometimes, people use a dying dough to make breadsticks as not to let the dough to go to waste.

Peter

Offline Vindii

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2010, 02:49:09 PM »
Vindii,

Eventually all doughs will become unusable. When the dough becomes unusable will depend on the type of dough and the dough formulation, especially the amount of yeast, the mode of fermentation (e.g., at room temperature, in the refrigerator, or some combination of both), and the temperature of the dough as it ferments. Sometimes there are visual cues that the dough is about to become unusable, such as a very puffy and soft dough with a profusion of fermentation bubbles and with little or no resistance to the touch, or possibly a slight darkening of the dough with spotting, but sometimes there are few visual cues. Usually the dough becomes unusable when it overferments. That typically happens when the yeast runs out of food (natural or added sugars). Also, with a long fermentation, there are enzymes in the dough, called protease enzymes, that attack the gluten structure over time, causing the gluten to become degraded to the point where the dough becomes highly extensible. When this happens, the water bond with protein is broken, releasing water into the dough, making it wet or slack or "clammy". Such a dough can become hard to handle and it is not uncommon for the dough to develop tears when trying to form it into a skin. Attempts to re-knead or re-ball the dough to restore its physical integrity and character will usually be fruitless, and you are likely to end up with a dough ball that is overly elastic and almost impossible to open up to form a skin. If one is able to actually form a skin out of the dough and to make a pizza out of it, the finished crust is likely to be light in color, because of insufficient residual sugars to contribute to crust coloration, and on the cracker-y side with sub-par oven spring (you need the proper combination of acids in the dough and residual sugar to get good oven spring). The crust is likely to have good flavor, however, because of all of the byproducts of long fermentation that contribute to good crust flavor, as well as aroma.

I often suggest that newbies intentionally let a dough go downhill so that they can see what the phenomena are that are at play as a dough ferments over a long period of time. A good experiment is to make several dough balls and use them one at a time, daily, until they run out, and observe the differences from one pizza to another. For such an experiment to be useful, it is best to make the pizzas identically as much as possible, including the types and amounts of sauce, cheeses and toppings. Otherwise, there will be too many variables to be able to make meaningful comparisons. You might even let the last dough ball expire on its own so that you can see what a dying dough looks and behaves like. Sometimes, people use a dying dough to make breadsticks as not to let the dough to go to waste.

Peter

Great info.  Just one last question.  Looks like from your last sentence that there is really no issue with eating the expoired dough.  May not have the same texture or taste but you don't need to worry about it getting you sick right?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2010, 03:43:26 PM »
Great info.  Just one last question.  Looks like from your last sentence that there is really no issue with eating the expired dough.  May not have the same texture or taste but you don't need to worry about it getting you sick right?

Vindii,

As you will see from Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11344.msg106401/topicseen.html#msg106401, I have made doughs (similar to the one you made) that were cold fermented for up to 23 days. I ate each of the pizzas referenced in the abovereferenced thread. I did not get sick, and to the best of my knowledge, I am still alive. However, that is just my opinion :-D.

As you can see from the posts at Replies 96 and 97 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg41466.html#msg41466, it looks like I would have had to push my 23-day old dough to over a month before worrying about the safety of eating the pizza.

Peter




Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2010, 05:01:34 PM »
black specks will appear as dough is overproofed.  after the black specks, it will start to turn a golden color and smell very odd.  next step is for the dough to mold.
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Offline RoadPizza

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2010, 07:59:41 PM »
black specks will appear as dough is overproofed.  after the black specks, it will start to turn a golden color and smell very odd.  next step is for the dough to mold.

I believe that the black specks are dead yeast.

Offline Vindii

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2010, 08:19:39 PM »
Vindii,

As you will see from Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11344.msg106401/topicseen.html#msg106401, I have made doughs (similar to the one you made) that were cold fermented for up to 23 days. I ate each of the pizzas referenced in the abovereferenced thread. I did not get sick, and to the best of my knowledge, I am still alive. However, that is just my opinion :-D.

As you can see from the posts at Replies 96 and 97 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg41466.html#msg41466, it looks like I would have had to push my 23-day old dough to over a month before worrying about the safety of eating the pizza.

Peter



Ok thanks.  Sounds like I can experiment with different amounts of time with much worry of anything bad happening.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2010, 09:00:48 PM »
The other theory on the black spots is that they are oxidized bran particles or oxidized iron. But, whatever the cause, it does not automatically follow that a dough is overfermented if the black spots appear. For example, the dough ball shown at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370 was about 10 1/2 days old when it was used and it was not overfermented. The dough shown at Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081 was about 12 days old and while it had more severe spotting, I did not find the dough to be overly extensible and hard to work with.

Peter

Offline RoadPizza

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2010, 09:13:00 PM »
The other theory on the black spots is that they are oxidized bran particles or oxidized iron. But, whatever the cause, it does not automatically follow that a dough is overfermented if the black spots appear. For example, the dough ball shown at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370 was about 10 1/2 days old when it was used and it was not overfermented. The dough shown at Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081 was about 12 days old and while it had more severe spotting, I did not find the dough to be overly extensible and hard to work with.

Peter

That's interesting, Peter.  When I first started making dough, my trainer was the one who told me to look for the "chocolate chip" specks of dead yeast.

Offline Vindii

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2010, 08:47:23 AM »
I've been reading about recipes that add the yeast to the water and let it proof.  I vaguely understand what proofing is.  Here is how I mixed my dough.  Let me know if I should be doing this differently.

I mixed the salt with the water (cold water). I mixed the yeast with the flour.  Then started to combined the yeast and the flour with the water.  I added the oil near the end.  Once it got into a dough shape I kneaded by hand for 5 minutes.  Then into the fridge for a day.

I know there are probably many way to make dough but let me know what is the best way for this recipe.

Thanks

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2010, 01:25:27 PM »
Vindii,

It is active dry yeast (ADY) that is rehydrated in a small amount of warm water before adding to the rest of the water or other ingredients. Instant dry yeast (IDY) was designed to be added directly to the flour.

The dough preparation method you described is essentially the method that Tom Lehmann recommends. He believes that adding the oil to the dough ingredients earlier in the process negatively affects the hydration of the flour. Others believe that uniform distribution of the oil throughout the dough is just as important, and maybe even more so, and hence add it to the water or other ingredients in the mixer bowl. So, you can pretty much take your pick on the method to use. I personally have found that if you use 1% oil (the amount called for in the Lehmann NY style formulation) and add it later in the dough making process, it will incorporate into the rest of the dough quite easily. However, I have found that above about 4% oil, for essentially any regular dough, it is much harder to get the oil to incorporate into the dough without having to intervene in the process, as by using your hands to incorporate the oil. I have found it better to add the oil to the water up front.

Peter

Offline Vindii

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2010, 06:59:20 PM »
Thanks for explaining Pete.

I made 3 dough balls yesterday.  Used two of them today for the football game.  Came out just as good as the first one.  Going to save the other one for Tuesday.  That will be 3 days in the fridge.

Is it possible to make dough that could be used in 1 day or let rest for a week?  It would be nice to make enough for 2 pizzas and cook one right away and one a week later.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2010, 07:12:09 PM »
Is it possible to make dough that could be used in 1 day or let rest for a week?  It would be nice to make enough for 2 pizzas and cook one right away and one a week later.

Vendii,

That is difficult to do with just one dough formulation. If you use a dough formulation that produces the desired results after one day, it is likely to result in an overfermented dough after one week. If you use a dough formulation that works for one week, the dough will be underfermented if used after one day. What you can do is to make two dough balls that will be usable after one day, let both dough balls ferment for one day, use one, and freeze the other. A frozen dough ball will still work pretty well after one week. You can see an example where I did this with a Lehmann NY style dough at Reply 830 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg96046.html#msg96046.

You seem to be having fun with all of this 8). Success can be a real aphrodisiac.

Peter

Offline Vindii

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2010, 11:11:29 PM »
Made the third dough ball today.  This one had 3 days of rest.  I could not tell much difference between the 3 day or the 1 day dough.  Both tasted great.  I cooked this one on my grill with one stone instead of the two stone set-up I was using.  Cooked it 6 minutes instead of 7 on the two stones (3 1/2 minutes per stone). Crust came out great but if I had cooked it any longer it may have burnt.

This crust comes out very thin in the middle and it sags when you lift it.  I'm not sure if it is the way NY style pizza is supposed to be or if it is my cooking methods or dough shaping.  I think I would like to try a dough that has a similar outside crust to this but is a bit more firm in the middle.  Something that would kind of hold it's shape more when you lift it.  Any recommendations?

Here are the pics.


Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Easy first time pizza dough recipies
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2010, 11:32:26 PM »
dont stretch the dough in the middle.  the inside 1/3, DONT TOUCH! and youll have more dough to make a firmer crust.   
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