Author Topic: How to get rid of the water  (Read 38432 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2011, 05:13:49 PM »
Brian,

Would you mind discussing how you managed your dough both when you used a hydration at around 72-74% and your current hydration value? I assume that when you used the higher hydration values you did a bulk fermentation at room temperature and then at some point did the dough division. In such a case, how did you hold the dough balls pending use? Also, on the assumption that my analysis is correct, did going to the lower hydration value require you to do anything different from a dough management standpoint than what you did with the higher hydration doughs? For example, did you have to change the amount of salt?

As a frame of reference, can you tell us what a typical dough ball weighs, both when you used the higher hydration values and your current hydration value?

Thanks.

Peter


Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2011, 06:32:35 PM »
Brian,

Would you mind discussing how you managed your dough both when you used a hydration at around 72-74% and your current hydration value? I assume that when you used the higher hydration values you did a bulk fermentation at room temperature and then at some point did the dough division. In such a case, how did you hold the dough balls pending use? Also, on the assumption that my analysis is correct, did going to the lower hydration value require you to do anything different from a dough management standpoint than what you did with the higher hydration doughs? For example, did you have to change the amount of salt?

As a frame of reference, can you tell us what a typical dough ball weighs, both when you used the higher hydration values and your current hydration value?

Thanks.

Peter

The system stayed the same, actually. We lowered the hydration for several reasons, the biggest one being that some of the new pizza makers were having a tough time stretching the skin to 18"+ with the high hydration. I think we were really pushing it the first three years with the higher hydration. No change in salt.

We scale 21 oz per 18"+... I say + because our pizzas hang over the edge of a 18" pan, so we are more like 19-20"

We used to scale around 22-23 oz with the higher hydration dough.

A day's process is this...

Make poolish at approx. 9:30 pm

At 10:30 am, mix poolish with remaining final dough ingredients. Mix on first speed with a spiral hook for approx 8-10 minutes. We want the dough to be around 80 degrees when it comes out of the bowl.

Divide dough into 2 separate dough tubs. By this point it is 11am

Stretch and fold every 45 minutes.

2:30 we scale and ball the dough. It takes us half an hour to do 110 skins.

At this point we evaluate the dough and whether it needs a chill in the walk in or not. On average, we may roll the dough into the walk in for 15 minutes.

If we did our job, dough should be ready to roll at 5pm

During production, put the rack of dough into the walk in for 10 minute periods. On hotter days, we may do this 3-4 times over the 5 hour production. Some nights, it might only be once or twice.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 01:12:36 AM by sfspanky »
Brian Spangler
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2011, 07:20:27 PM »
Brian,

Thank you for the additional information. As a result, I went back to my original post where I came up with my "Spangler clone dough" at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg76431.html#msg76431. That clone was before you modified your dough formulation. However, in rereading that post it looks like I came very close to what you were doing before you instituted the changes, including a calculated judgment on my part that you were of the classic Calvel/Rosada mold (they are two of my personal heros) and meant what you said when you posted information on your dough and methods in the Portland blog. Having seen prominent professionals obscure what they are doing and sometimes misleading others as to what they do, or coming up with harmless dough recipes for the common folk to use, I have developed the Ronald Reagan philosophy of "trust but verify". So, it is refreshing to see someone of your stature willing to disclose what you are doing at the level of detail you have provided. We have some very talented and knowledgeable members on this forum, so I hope you will find something of value here to compensate you for your contributions to the forum, and maybe encourage future participation on your part within the constaints of your need to run a real business. 

Getting back to my clone, I was a bit off on the amount of IDY in my post referenced above but I had calculated the amount of IDY in my clone based on the prevailing ambient temperatures where I live outside of Dallas, where summer temperatures can get to over 100 degrees F, with correspondingly high room temperatures in my kitchen. Were I in a cooler climate, such as Portland, OR, I suspect I would have made adjustments to the amount of IDY to use. It also looks like I guessed right on the thickness factor of your original dough (0.09), which gave me a dough weight of around 22-23 ounces. It appears what I lacked was the right oven, as I commented in my post and elsewhere.

I always invite comment on what I have done, so please feel free to add anything that I may have missed.

Peter


Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2011, 09:52:17 PM »
Brian,
... a calculated judgment on my part that you were of the classic Calvel/Rosada mold (they are two of my personal heros)


I trained under Didier Rosada. The man is a walking bread computer.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2011, 11:08:04 PM »
Brian,  just curious,  would a gas deck oven at the same temps create a nearly identical product?  Also,  with thos being electric,  do you have to deal with much recovery time?  Thanks -marc

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2011, 11:48:09 PM »
Brian,  just curious,  would a gas deck oven at the same temps create a nearly identical product?  Also,  with thos being electric,  do you have to deal with much recovery time?  Thanks -marc

I don't know if you can get gas ovens as hot, but I have never used one, so I cannot say for sure. We drop our pizzas when the hearth is reading around 700 degrees.

Since the electric ovens have elements below the hearth as well as above the hearth, our recovery times are very, very short. This also speeds up the baking time.

To put it this way, every time I have a new employee that has only worked with gas deck ovens, they are always commenting on how hot the oven is and how fast it recovers. If you are not careful, these electric deck ovens can get away from you pretty quickly.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline norma427

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2011, 08:01:31 AM »
Brian,

Sorry to be asking another question, but do you find that when using Harvest King, that flour is better suited for a poolish than other flours?  Have you found different flours work better for different preferments?  Do you think the flavor of the crust would be better if I tried Harvest King instead of KASL in my preferment Lehmann formula with a poolish?  I also need to try out Harvest King in my milk kefir poolish dough.

I also wondered since different flour companies do produce different flours for wholesale, is the Harvest King brand exactly the same kind of flour that can be purchased retail in supermarkets? I can purchase Harvest King from my distributor, but just wondered, before I do some tests on supermarket flour.

Thanks again for answering questions openly on the forum.   :)

Norma 
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2011, 08:38:53 AM »
Brian, not sure if this has already been asked, but about how long is your typical pie baked for?  Also do you have any favorite pictures of your pizzas you wouldn't mind sharing as well?  Some crumb shots would be cool too.

Thanks,
Chau

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2011, 08:56:15 AM »
Hi Brian,

Thank you for sharing your knowledge so freely.
I am guessing that you can control the top heating element in each deck..Can you tell me roughly what temp you are using for the top elements?

Many thanks,

Paul
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 09:00:12 AM by PaulsPizza »

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2011, 02:58:47 PM »
Brian,

Sorry to be asking another question, but do you find that when using Harvest King, that flour is better suited for a poolish than other flours?  Have you found different flours work better for different preferments?  Do you think the flavor of the crust would be better if I tried Harvest King instead of KASL in my preferment Lehmann formula with a poolish?  I also need to try out Harvest King in my milk kefir poolish dough.

I also wondered since different flour companies do produce different flours for wholesale, is the Harvest King brand exactly the same kind of flour that can be purchased retail in supermarkets? I can purchase Harvest King from my distributor, but just wondered, before I do some tests on supermarket flour.

Thanks again for answering questions openly on the forum.   :)

Norma 

I find any winter wheat is better for preferments than spring wheat, due to the better protein quality. This is for fermentation tolerance that higher quality protein gives you. I have come across some flours that were better for sourdough, than commercial yeast preferments, but they have been few and far between and those flours were generally milled from spring wheat. Any flour, no matter what label is on the outside, is going to be different from lot# to lot#. Every growing season is different and most flours are milled from wheat grown in different regions, by different farms. I can't say that the flavor will be better for you, but I have been using Harvest King flour for almost 8 years now, for both sourdough and poolish breads. It is a very consistent product with great enzyme activity balance.

I just talked to the GM rep and he told me that the Harvest King flour in the 5# bags was the exact same flour as in the 50# bags.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls


Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2011, 03:01:54 PM »
Brian, not sure if this has already been asked, but about how long is your typical pie baked for?  Also do you have any favorite pictures of your pizzas you wouldn't mind sharing as well?  Some crumb shots would be cool too.

Thanks,
Chau

Average bake time is 6 minutes

I personally don't have any pictures of my pizza... however, my pizza has been photographed thousands of times and shared on the www. Do a search on flickr or google.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2011, 03:03:38 PM »
Hi Brian,

Thank you for sharing your knowledge so freely.
I am guessing that you can control the top heating element in each deck..Can you tell me roughly what temp you are using for the top elements?

Many thanks,

Paul

It's hard to say... I've pointed an infrared thermo at the elements and get wildly different readings. I would guess it is somewhere around 900 degrees.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

PaulsPizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2011, 03:13:38 PM »
Wow, that's hot!
Thanks for that Brian!

All the best,

Paul


It's hard to say... I've pointed an infrared thermo at the elements and get wildly different readings. I would guess it is somewhere around 900 degrees.

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2011, 03:25:14 PM »
Hi Brian,
I am guessing that you can control the top heating element in each deck

Sorry.. I didn't really answer this question. You can control the elements below the hearth and above the hearth independently. Essentially you control them with an "infinite switch" which regulates their intensity. You have an infinite switch for the elements under the hearth as well as a separate infinite switch for the elements in the dome/top of the oven chamber. For example, if I set an infinite switch to 10, the elements remain on, like a broiler. If I set them to 5, they cycle on and off in timed intervals, like 15 seconds on, 15 seconds off. This gives you much more control than a gas deck oven. The only other control is the temperature dial, which is setting the thermocouple, which reads the internal ambient air temp of the oven. If you set the oven temp to 600 degrees and the internal air temp reaches 600, then everything shuts down until the temp falls below 600.
Brian Spangler
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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2011, 03:34:58 PM »
Thank you for that Brian.

The oven I have brought for my shop can reach 500 degrees C on the floor and roof of each deck,  the switches on each deck are both temperature dials so it will be interesting to see how accurately they work when I fire it up. It is a twin deck electric oven BTW.

Thanks again Brian,

Paul



Sorry.. I didn't really answer this question. You can control the elements below the hearth and above the hearth independently. Essentially you control them with an "infinite switch" which regulates their intensity. You have an infinite switch for the elements under the hearth as well as a separate infinite switch for the elements in the dome/top of the oven chamber. For example, if I set an infinite switch to 10, the elements remain on, like a broiler. If I set them to 5, they cycle on and off in timed intervals, like 15 seconds on, 15 seconds off. This gives you much more control than a gas deck oven. The only other control is the temperature dial, which is setting the thermocouple, which reads the internal ambient air temp of the oven. If you set the oven temp to 600 degrees and the internal air temp reaches 600, then everything shuts down until the temp falls below 600.

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2011, 03:38:39 PM »
Thank you for that Brian.

The oven I have brought for my shop can reach 500 degrees C on the floor and roof of each deck,  the switches on each deck are both temperature dials so it will be interesting to see how accurately they work when I fire it up. It is a twin deck electric oven BTW.

Thanks again Brian,

Paul


What make and model did you buy? I have a Bakers Pride EP-2-8-5736 double deck.
http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/SDECK-5736-01-07.pdf
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline norma427

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2011, 03:49:48 PM »
I find any winter wheat is better for preferments than spring wheat, due to the better protein quality. This is for fermentation tolerance that higher quality protein gives you. I have come across some flours that were better for sourdough, than commercial yeast preferments, but they have been few and far between and those flours were generally milled from spring wheat. Any flour, no matter what label is on the outside, is going to be different from lot# to lot#. Every growing season is different and most flours are milled from wheat grown in different regions, by different farms. I can't say that the flavor will be better for you, but I have been using Harvest King flour for almost 8 years now, for both sourdough and poolish breads. It is a very consistent product with great enzyme activity balance.

I just talked to the GM rep and he told me that the Harvest King flour in the 5# bags was the exact same flour as in the 50# bags.

sfspanky,

Thanks for telling me you find winter wheat is better for preferments, due to the better protein quality.  I didnít know that before.  I had known that flour is different from lot to lot.  I was having trouble with my poolish for a few weeks getting wet on the bottom. The poolish was still useable, but the crust of the pizas became darker. It had never done that before.  I had thought it might be the bags of flour I used.  After those bags of flour were used I havenít had any problems with the poolish. 

Thanks for checking with your GM rep that the same flour is in 5lb. bags and 50 lb. bags. I appreciate your time in answering my questions.  I will try the Harvest King in my dough and will report back how it worked out.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

PaulsPizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2011, 03:53:55 PM »
Brian,

The oven is a UK company I believe called Imperial ovens.
I was given a really good deal on it with the option of a bakerspride oven (slightly more money) if I wasn't happy with it.
I have 8 weeks to play with the oven before I open my doors.

Paul

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2011, 01:23:35 AM »
Having seen prominent professionals obscure what they are doing and sometimes misleading others as to what they do, or coming up with harmless dough recipes for the common folk to use, I have developed the Ronald Reagan philosophy of "trust but verify". So, it is refreshing to see someone of your stature willing to disclose what you are doing at the level of detail you have provided. We have some very talented and knowledgeable members on this forum, so I hope you will find something of value here to compensate you for your contributions to the forum, and maybe encourage future participation on your part within the constaints of your need to run a real business.

There would be nothing to gain by not telling the truth. If is was not for other professionals, like Craig Ponsford and Didier Rosada, whom I worked trained under with for a month, I would not be where I am. Sharing knowledge and experience is one of the greatest gifts one can offer others. I would never expect anything in return, but I have already gained knowledge from others experiences and shared knowledge on this site, most notably yours. As I always said, when I served on the Bread Bakers Guild of America Board of Directors, "you only get out of it, what you put into it".
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2011, 03:25:58 AM »
There would be nothing to gain by not telling the truth...Sharing knowledge and experience is one of the greatest gifts one can offer others...As I always said, "you only get out of it, what you put into it".

Wow.  How true and great perspective!  Thank you for reminding me of this. 

Chau