Author Topic: How to get rid of the water  (Read 53393 times)

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Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2011, 03:01:54 PM »
Brian, not sure if this has already been asked, but about how long is your typical pie baked for?  Also do you have any favorite pictures of your pizzas you wouldn't mind sharing as well?  Some crumb shots would be cool too.

Thanks,
Chau

Average bake time is 6 minutes

I personally don't have any pictures of my pizza... however, my pizza has been photographed thousands of times and shared on the www. Do a search on flickr or google.
Brian Spangler
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Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2011, 03:03:38 PM »
Hi Brian,

Thank you for sharing your knowledge so freely.
I am guessing that you can control the top heating element in each deck..Can you tell me roughly what temp you are using for the top elements?

Many thanks,

Paul

It's hard to say... I've pointed an infrared thermo at the elements and get wildly different readings. I would guess it is somewhere around 900 degrees.
Brian Spangler
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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2011, 03:13:38 PM »
Wow, that's hot!
Thanks for that Brian!

All the best,

Paul


It's hard to say... I've pointed an infrared thermo at the elements and get wildly different readings. I would guess it is somewhere around 900 degrees.

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2011, 03:25:14 PM »
Hi Brian,
I am guessing that you can control the top heating element in each deck

Sorry.. I didn't really answer this question. You can control the elements below the hearth and above the hearth independently. Essentially you control them with an "infinite switch" which regulates their intensity. You have an infinite switch for the elements under the hearth as well as a separate infinite switch for the elements in the dome/top of the oven chamber. For example, if I set an infinite switch to 10, the elements remain on, like a broiler. If I set them to 5, they cycle on and off in timed intervals, like 15 seconds on, 15 seconds off. This gives you much more control than a gas deck oven. The only other control is the temperature dial, which is setting the thermocouple, which reads the internal ambient air temp of the oven. If you set the oven temp to 600 degrees and the internal air temp reaches 600, then everything shuts down until the temp falls below 600.
Brian Spangler
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PaulsPizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2011, 03:34:58 PM »
Thank you for that Brian.

The oven I have brought for my shop can reach 500 degrees C on the floor and roof of each deck,  the switches on each deck are both temperature dials so it will be interesting to see how accurately they work when I fire it up. It is a twin deck electric oven BTW.

Thanks again Brian,

Paul



Sorry.. I didn't really answer this question. You can control the elements below the hearth and above the hearth independently. Essentially you control them with an "infinite switch" which regulates their intensity. You have an infinite switch for the elements under the hearth as well as a separate infinite switch for the elements in the dome/top of the oven chamber. For example, if I set an infinite switch to 10, the elements remain on, like a broiler. If I set them to 5, they cycle on and off in timed intervals, like 15 seconds on, 15 seconds off. This gives you much more control than a gas deck oven. The only other control is the temperature dial, which is setting the thermocouple, which reads the internal ambient air temp of the oven. If you set the oven temp to 600 degrees and the internal air temp reaches 600, then everything shuts down until the temp falls below 600.

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2011, 03:38:39 PM »
Thank you for that Brian.

The oven I have brought for my shop can reach 500 degrees C on the floor and roof of each deck,  the switches on each deck are both temperature dials so it will be interesting to see how accurately they work when I fire it up. It is a twin deck electric oven BTW.

Thanks again Brian,

Paul

What make and model did you buy? I have a Bakers Pride EP-2-8-5736 double deck.
http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/SDECK-5736-01-07.pdf
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline norma427

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2011, 03:49:48 PM »
I find any winter wheat is better for preferments than spring wheat, due to the better protein quality. This is for fermentation tolerance that higher quality protein gives you. I have come across some flours that were better for sourdough, than commercial yeast preferments, but they have been few and far between and those flours were generally milled from spring wheat. Any flour, no matter what label is on the outside, is going to be different from lot# to lot#. Every growing season is different and most flours are milled from wheat grown in different regions, by different farms. I can't say that the flavor will be better for you, but I have been using Harvest King flour for almost 8 years now, for both sourdough and poolish breads. It is a very consistent product with great enzyme activity balance.

I just talked to the GM rep and he told me that the Harvest King flour in the 5# bags was the exact same flour as in the 50# bags.

sfspanky,

Thanks for telling me you find winter wheat is better for preferments, due to the better protein quality.  I didnít know that before.  I had known that flour is different from lot to lot.  I was having trouble with my poolish for a few weeks getting wet on the bottom. The poolish was still useable, but the crust of the pizas became darker. It had never done that before.  I had thought it might be the bags of flour I used.  After those bags of flour were used I havenít had any problems with the poolish. 

Thanks for checking with your GM rep that the same flour is in 5lb. bags and 50 lb. bags. I appreciate your time in answering my questions.  I will try the Harvest King in my dough and will report back how it worked out.

Norma
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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2011, 03:53:55 PM »
Brian,

The oven is a UK company I believe called Imperial ovens.
I was given a really good deal on it with the option of a bakerspride oven (slightly more money) if I wasn't happy with it.
I have 8 weeks to play with the oven before I open my doors.

Paul

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2011, 01:23:35 AM »
Having seen prominent professionals obscure what they are doing and sometimes misleading others as to what they do, or coming up with harmless dough recipes for the common folk to use, I have developed the Ronald Reagan philosophy of "trust but verify". So, it is refreshing to see someone of your stature willing to disclose what you are doing at the level of detail you have provided. We have some very talented and knowledgeable members on this forum, so I hope you will find something of value here to compensate you for your contributions to the forum, and maybe encourage future participation on your part within the constaints of your need to run a real business.

There would be nothing to gain by not telling the truth. If is was not for other professionals, like Craig Ponsford and Didier Rosada, whom I worked trained under with for a month, I would not be where I am. Sharing knowledge and experience is one of the greatest gifts one can offer others. I would never expect anything in return, but I have already gained knowledge from others experiences and shared knowledge on this site, most notably yours. As I always said, when I served on the Bread Bakers Guild of America Board of Directors, "you only get out of it, what you put into it".
Brian Spangler
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2011, 03:25:58 AM »
There would be nothing to gain by not telling the truth...Sharing knowledge and experience is one of the greatest gifts one can offer others...As I always said, "you only get out of it, what you put into it".

Wow.  How true and great perspective!  Thank you for reminding me of this. 

Chau

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2011, 10:20:48 AM »
Brian,  I am attempting to make your dough today.  I made a poolish last night late.   500g total weight with a little less than a gram of IDY,  it is cold up here in the northeast.  It is fermenting at 60 degrees and lookking to be ready ontime for the final dough mixing around noon my time.  I was doing the final dough calculations and here is what I have come up with.  I can't imagine only adding .22 grams of yeast is going to have the dough ready ontime,  but maybe.  Maybe your kitchen work areas are warmer,  My room temp will be 70 degrees where my final doughs will get ready.  I chose 2% salt as a guess.  If you have any comments I would like to hear them.  They will be baked in my wood oven tonight around 700 degress as best as I can manage.  I will post pictures later.  Thanks -marc


Water (63%):    894.99 g  |  31.57 oz | 1.97 lbs
Salt (2%):    28.41 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.92 tsp | 1.97 tbsp
IDY (.01519%):    0.22 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.07 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
Oil (1.5%):    21.31 g | 0.75 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.74 tsp | 1.58 tbsp
Total (166.51519%):   2365.54 g | 83.44 oz | 5.22 lbs | TF = 0.083
Single Ball:   473.11 g | 16.69 oz | 1.04 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:    236.55 g | 8.34 oz | 0.52 lbs
Water:    236.55 g | 8.34 oz | 0.52 lbs
Total:    473.11 g | 16.69 oz | 1.04 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    1184.06 g | 41.77 oz | 2.61 lbs
Water:    658.43 g | 23.23 oz | 1.45 lbs
Salt:    28.41 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.92 tsp | 1.97 tbsp
IDY:    0.22 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.07 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
Preferment:    473.11 g | 16.69 oz | 1.04 lbs
Oil:    21.31 g | 0.75 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.74 tsp | 1.58 tbsp
Total:    2365.54 g | 83.44 oz | 5.22 lbs  | TF = 0.083

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2011, 11:03:35 AM »
Peter,  what I did to arrive at the IDY for the final dough was deduct the known poolish percentage from the known total percentage to arrive at the difference pergentage which came out to (.01519%)  Are you saying that the calculator cannot handle numbers that small.  Mt approach was to leave the poolish out of the equation all together.  -marc

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2011, 11:40:40 AM »
Marc,

While you were posting your last reply, I was deleting my post. I did not notice that you had left out the total formula flour line in the dough formulation you posted, and I mistakenly used the total formula water to do my calculations. However, from what you posted, I believe the total formula flour is 1420.61 grams. Unfortunately, the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html cannot do the types of calculations required by Brian's dough. That tool was designed principally for naturally leavened doughs with the option of adding commercial yeast as part of the final mix (but not as part of the preferment). The calculations for Brian's dough have to be done manually with a calculator (or possibly a spreadsheet). However, if the total formula IDY is 0.04783% of the total formula flour, as Brian specified, for your amount of total formula flour, 1420.61 grams, the total formula IDY comes to about 0.68 grams. Some of this IDY is used to make the poolish. Specifically, that amount is 0.03264% of the weight of the poolish flour, as also specified by Brian. However, from what Brian has said, he now uses 20% of the total formula flour in his poolish. If the above value for the total formula flour (1420.61 grams) is correct, then the poolish should weigh 284.12 grams, with half of that (142.06 grams) being flour and the other half (142.06 grams) being water. If these numbers are correct, then, from what Brian specified as the poolish IDY percent, 0.03264%, the poolish IDY would be about 0.046 grams. If we subtract that value from 0.68 grams, we get 0.634 grams of IDY for the final mix. Brian can correct me if I misunderstood his numbers or got any of the numbers wrong. However, if they are correct, that means that the values of most of the ingredients for the final mix will have to be adjusted from what you posted.

Based on the IDY conversion data I use, 0.68 grams of IDY (total formula IDY) comes to about 0.23 teaspoons, 0.046 grams of IDY (the poolish IDY) comes to 0.0153 teaspoons, and 0.634 grams of IDY (the final mix IDY) comes to about 0.21 teaspoons. All of these numbers are so small as not to perturbate the total dough batch weight number.

I hadn't recalculated the thickness factor with Brian's revised formulation but for a 21-ounce dough ball for an 18" pizza, the nominal thickness factor you are using is correct. The value of the thickness factor will be a bit less to the extent the final pizza size is in excess of 18", which is a possibility that Brian noted.

I don't believe that Brian specified a baker's percent for the salt, but I would imagine that it is not over 2%.

Peter


Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2011, 11:52:26 AM »
Marc,

While you were posting your last reply, I was deleting my post. I did not notice that you had left out the total formula flour line in the dough formulation you posted, and I mistakenly used the total formula water to do my calculations. However, from what you posted, I believe the total formula flour is 1420.61 grams. Unfortunately, the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html cannot do the types of calculations required by Brian's dough. That tool was designed principally for naturally leavened doughs with the option of adding commercial yeast as part of the final mix (but not as part of the preferment). The calculations for Brian's dough have to be done manually with a calculator (or possibly a spreadsheet). However, if the total formula IDY is 0.04783% of the total formula flour, as Brian specified, for your amount of total formula flour, 1420.61 grams, the total formula IDY comes to about 0.68 grams. Some of this IDY is used to make the poolish. Specifically, that amount is 0.03264% of the weight of the poolish flour, as also specified by Brian. However, from what Brian has said, he now uses 20% of the total formula flour in his poolish. If the above value for the total formula flour (1420.61 grams) is correct, then the poolish should weigh 284.12 grams, with half of that (142.06 grams) being flour and the other half (142.06 grams) being water. If these numbers are correct, then, from what Brian specified as the poolish IDY percent, 0.03264%, the poolish IDY would be about 0.046 grams. If we subtract that value from 0.68 grams, we get 0.634 grams of IDY for the final mix. Brian can correct me if I misunderstood his numbers or got any of the numbers wrong. However, if they are correct, that means that the values of most of the ingredients for the final mix will have to be adjusted from what you posted.

Based on the IDY conversion data I use, 0.68 grams of IDY (total formula IDY) comes to about 0.23 teaspoons, 0.046 grams of IDY (the poolish IDY) comes to 0.0153 teaspoons, and 0.634 grams of IDY (the final mix IDY) comes to about 0.21 teaspoons. All of these numbers are so small as not to perturbate the total dough batch weight number.

I hadn't recalculated the thickness factor with Brian's revised formulation but for a 21-ounce dough ball for an 18" pizza, the nominal thickness factor you are using is correct. The value of the thickness factor will be a bit less to the extent the final pizza size is in excess of 18", which is a possibility that Brian noted.

I don't believe that Brian specified a baker's percent for the salt, but I would imagine that it is not over 2%.

Peter



Your numbers are correct, Peter. And I always use 2% salt.

Marc, do you have a scale accurate enough to weigh that amount of yeast? Also, please take the "mass effect" into account. I work with a lot of dough and you might have to bump up your temps to get the desired results within your time frame. My kitchen is always around 74 degrees.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2011, 07:19:16 PM »
Well,  I was close enough on yeast amounts it looks like the dough is looking great and feels extremely robust.  I haven't looked forward to a bake this much in a bit....

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2011, 07:24:44 PM »
looking forward to your results Marc.  Im sure the pies will be great.

Chau

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2011, 07:43:20 PM »
Well,  I was close enough on yeast amounts it looks like the dough is looking great and feels extremely robust.  I haven't looked forward to a bake this much in a bit....

Looking forward to your results, Marc.
Brian Spangler
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2011, 08:11:42 PM »
Just an update getting ready,  waiting for people and trying not to overfire the oven

Offline norma427

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2011, 08:14:08 PM »
Just an update getting ready,  waiting for people and trying not to overfire the oven

Marc,

I am also looking forward to your results!  ;D

Norma
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Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2011, 09:12:02 PM »
Good thing you took those beer taps out of your wall. Alcohol and fire don't go hand and hand. Can't wait to see the pizzas.

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2011, 12:52:42 AM »
Well folks,  here they are sorry about the long delay.  had to eat them too.  All in all an ecxellent dough and final crust.  The bake times ranged from 3.5 right up to 6 minutes.  I did get is a little too hot for a bit,  but it rolled off nice and balanced.  The crumb was generally very good to great.  Very tender too,  handled and opened up very nicely.  I would decrease my dough ball weight by just a bit next time,  but all the regulars commented on how good and crispy the crust was.  It also stood up well after baking which is great.  I would highly recomend this approach and formula.  I have used similar formulas in the past,  but without the stretch and fold.  I have commented on folds in the past,  and I guess its no secret that it can be very nice in the final dough.  I will post some pictures here,  I always wish they came out better,  but people want to eat them.  Also they will be in order,  from hottest to coolest.  Honestly,  the closer they came to the 5-6 minute mark the better they were.  Thanks for the info on your formula Brian it is excellent,  and for such a well fermented dough,  it handled very very nicely.  I will make this many times in the future I am sure.  -marc

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2011, 12:53:50 AM »
and the rest

Offline Matthew

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2011, 03:42:30 AM »
Well folks,  here they are sorry about the long delay.  had to eat them too.  All in all an ecxellent dough and final crust.  The bake times ranged from 3.5 right up to 6 minutes.  I did get is a little too hot for a bit,  but it rolled off nice and balanced.  The crumb was generally very good to great.  Very tender too,  handled and opened up very nicely.  I would decrease my dough ball weight by just a bit next time,  but all the regulars commented on how good and crispy the crust was.  It also stood up well after baking which is great.  I would highly recomend this approach and formula.  I have used similar formulas in the past,  but without the stretch and fold.  I have commented on folds in the past,  and I guess its no secret that it can be very nice in the final dough.  I will post some pictures here,  I always wish they came out better,  but people want to eat them.  Also they will be in order,  from hottest to coolest.  Honestly,  the closer they came to the 5-6 minute mark the better they were.  Thanks for the info on your formula Brian it is excellent,  and for such a well fermented dough,  it handled very very nicely.  I will make this many times in the future I am sure.  -marc

Beautiful Marc!

Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2011, 09:01:47 AM »
Marc,

I agree, those pizzas are beautiful!  ;D  It is interesting that the crumb was very tender.  Do you think the brand of flour and the stretch and folds contributed to the tender crumb?

Nice job!  Very nice pictures.

Norma

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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2011, 10:08:08 AM »
Thanks Matt and Norma,  they were really good.  Norma,  I think the tender crumb was from the relatively high hydration,  the small amout of oil,  and the fast bake time.  I am sure that the flour plays a role too.  I need to find a 50# bag of this flour soon!  The effect was more pronunced the quicker the pizzas were baked.  Next time I will scale to 425-450 grams. -marc
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 11:03:29 AM by widespreadpizza »