Author Topic: How to get rid of the water  (Read 47232 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline widespreadpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1239
  • Location: NH
    • my beer store opening in june 2011
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2011, 10:20:48 AM »
Brian,  I am attempting to make your dough today.  I made a poolish last night late.   500g total weight with a little less than a gram of IDY,  it is cold up here in the northeast.  It is fermenting at 60 degrees and lookking to be ready ontime for the final dough mixing around noon my time.  I was doing the final dough calculations and here is what I have come up with.  I can't imagine only adding .22 grams of yeast is going to have the dough ready ontime,  but maybe.  Maybe your kitchen work areas are warmer,  My room temp will be 70 degrees where my final doughs will get ready.  I chose 2% salt as a guess.  If you have any comments I would like to hear them.  They will be baked in my wood oven tonight around 700 degress as best as I can manage.  I will post pictures later.  Thanks -marc


Water (63%):    894.99 g  |  31.57 oz | 1.97 lbs
Salt (2%):    28.41 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.92 tsp | 1.97 tbsp
IDY (.01519%):    0.22 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.07 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
Oil (1.5%):    21.31 g | 0.75 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.74 tsp | 1.58 tbsp
Total (166.51519%):   2365.54 g | 83.44 oz | 5.22 lbs | TF = 0.083
Single Ball:   473.11 g | 16.69 oz | 1.04 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:    236.55 g | 8.34 oz | 0.52 lbs
Water:    236.55 g | 8.34 oz | 0.52 lbs
Total:    473.11 g | 16.69 oz | 1.04 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    1184.06 g | 41.77 oz | 2.61 lbs
Water:    658.43 g | 23.23 oz | 1.45 lbs
Salt:    28.41 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.92 tsp | 1.97 tbsp
IDY:    0.22 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.07 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
Preferment:    473.11 g | 16.69 oz | 1.04 lbs
Oil:    21.31 g | 0.75 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.74 tsp | 1.58 tbsp
Total:    2365.54 g | 83.44 oz | 5.22 lbs  | TF = 0.083


Offline widespreadpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1239
  • Location: NH
    • my beer store opening in june 2011
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2011, 11:03:35 AM »
Peter,  what I did to arrive at the IDY for the final dough was deduct the known poolish percentage from the known total percentage to arrive at the difference pergentage which came out to (.01519%)  Are you saying that the calculator cannot handle numbers that small.  Mt approach was to leave the poolish out of the equation all together.  -marc

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22457
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2011, 11:40:40 AM »
Marc,

While you were posting your last reply, I was deleting my post. I did not notice that you had left out the total formula flour line in the dough formulation you posted, and I mistakenly used the total formula water to do my calculations. However, from what you posted, I believe the total formula flour is 1420.61 grams. Unfortunately, the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html cannot do the types of calculations required by Brian's dough. That tool was designed principally for naturally leavened doughs with the option of adding commercial yeast as part of the final mix (but not as part of the preferment). The calculations for Brian's dough have to be done manually with a calculator (or possibly a spreadsheet). However, if the total formula IDY is 0.04783% of the total formula flour, as Brian specified, for your amount of total formula flour, 1420.61 grams, the total formula IDY comes to about 0.68 grams. Some of this IDY is used to make the poolish. Specifically, that amount is 0.03264% of the weight of the poolish flour, as also specified by Brian. However, from what Brian has said, he now uses 20% of the total formula flour in his poolish. If the above value for the total formula flour (1420.61 grams) is correct, then the poolish should weigh 284.12 grams, with half of that (142.06 grams) being flour and the other half (142.06 grams) being water. If these numbers are correct, then, from what Brian specified as the poolish IDY percent, 0.03264%, the poolish IDY would be about 0.046 grams. If we subtract that value from 0.68 grams, we get 0.634 grams of IDY for the final mix. Brian can correct me if I misunderstood his numbers or got any of the numbers wrong. However, if they are correct, that means that the values of most of the ingredients for the final mix will have to be adjusted from what you posted.

Based on the IDY conversion data I use, 0.68 grams of IDY (total formula IDY) comes to about 0.23 teaspoons, 0.046 grams of IDY (the poolish IDY) comes to 0.0153 teaspoons, and 0.634 grams of IDY (the final mix IDY) comes to about 0.21 teaspoons. All of these numbers are so small as not to perturbate the total dough batch weight number.

I hadn't recalculated the thickness factor with Brian's revised formulation but for a 21-ounce dough ball for an 18" pizza, the nominal thickness factor you are using is correct. The value of the thickness factor will be a bit less to the extent the final pizza size is in excess of 18", which is a possibility that Brian noted.

I don't believe that Brian specified a baker's percent for the salt, but I would imagine that it is not over 2%.

Peter


Offline sfspanky

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 90
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2011, 11:52:26 AM »
Marc,

While you were posting your last reply, I was deleting my post. I did not notice that you had left out the total formula flour line in the dough formulation you posted, and I mistakenly used the total formula water to do my calculations. However, from what you posted, I believe the total formula flour is 1420.61 grams. Unfortunately, the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html cannot do the types of calculations required by Brian's dough. That tool was designed principally for naturally leavened doughs with the option of adding commercial yeast as part of the final mix (but not as part of the preferment). The calculations for Brian's dough have to be done manually with a calculator (or possibly a spreadsheet). However, if the total formula IDY is 0.04783% of the total formula flour, as Brian specified, for your amount of total formula flour, 1420.61 grams, the total formula IDY comes to about 0.68 grams. Some of this IDY is used to make the poolish. Specifically, that amount is 0.03264% of the weight of the poolish flour, as also specified by Brian. However, from what Brian has said, he now uses 20% of the total formula flour in his poolish. If the above value for the total formula flour (1420.61 grams) is correct, then the poolish should weigh 284.12 grams, with half of that (142.06 grams) being flour and the other half (142.06 grams) being water. If these numbers are correct, then, from what Brian specified as the poolish IDY percent, 0.03264%, the poolish IDY would be about 0.046 grams. If we subtract that value from 0.68 grams, we get 0.634 grams of IDY for the final mix. Brian can correct me if I misunderstood his numbers or got any of the numbers wrong. However, if they are correct, that means that the values of most of the ingredients for the final mix will have to be adjusted from what you posted.

Based on the IDY conversion data I use, 0.68 grams of IDY (total formula IDY) comes to about 0.23 teaspoons, 0.046 grams of IDY (the poolish IDY) comes to 0.0153 teaspoons, and 0.634 grams of IDY (the final mix IDY) comes to about 0.21 teaspoons. All of these numbers are so small as not to perturbate the total dough batch weight number.

I hadn't recalculated the thickness factor with Brian's revised formulation but for a 21-ounce dough ball for an 18" pizza, the nominal thickness factor you are using is correct. The value of the thickness factor will be a bit less to the extent the final pizza size is in excess of 18", which is a possibility that Brian noted.

I don't believe that Brian specified a baker's percent for the salt, but I would imagine that it is not over 2%.

Peter



Your numbers are correct, Peter. And I always use 2% salt.

Marc, do you have a scale accurate enough to weigh that amount of yeast? Also, please take the "mass effect" into account. I work with a lot of dough and you might have to bump up your temps to get the desired results within your time frame. My kitchen is always around 74 degrees.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline widespreadpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1239
  • Location: NH
    • my beer store opening in june 2011
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2011, 07:19:16 PM »
Well,  I was close enough on yeast amounts it looks like the dough is looking great and feels extremely robust.  I haven't looked forward to a bake this much in a bit....

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7000
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2011, 07:24:44 PM »
looking forward to your results Marc.  Im sure the pies will be great.

Chau

Offline sfspanky

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 90
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2011, 07:43:20 PM »
Well,  I was close enough on yeast amounts it looks like the dough is looking great and feels extremely robust.  I haven't looked forward to a bake this much in a bit....

Looking forward to your results, Marc.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline widespreadpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1239
  • Location: NH
    • my beer store opening in june 2011
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2011, 08:11:42 PM »
Just an update getting ready,  waiting for people and trying not to overfire the oven

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22697
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2011, 08:14:08 PM »
Just an update getting ready,  waiting for people and trying not to overfire the oven

Marc,

I am also looking forward to your results!  ;D

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline BrickStoneOven

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1599
  • Location: Boston
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2011, 09:12:02 PM »
Good thing you took those beer taps out of your wall. Alcohol and fire don't go hand and hand. Can't wait to see the pizzas.


Offline widespreadpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1239
  • Location: NH
    • my beer store opening in june 2011
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2011, 12:52:42 AM »
Well folks,  here they are sorry about the long delay.  had to eat them too.  All in all an ecxellent dough and final crust.  The bake times ranged from 3.5 right up to 6 minutes.  I did get is a little too hot for a bit,  but it rolled off nice and balanced.  The crumb was generally very good to great.  Very tender too,  handled and opened up very nicely.  I would decrease my dough ball weight by just a bit next time,  but all the regulars commented on how good and crispy the crust was.  It also stood up well after baking which is great.  I would highly recomend this approach and formula.  I have used similar formulas in the past,  but without the stretch and fold.  I have commented on folds in the past,  and I guess its no secret that it can be very nice in the final dough.  I will post some pictures here,  I always wish they came out better,  but people want to eat them.  Also they will be in order,  from hottest to coolest.  Honestly,  the closer they came to the 5-6 minute mark the better they were.  Thanks for the info on your formula Brian it is excellent,  and for such a well fermented dough,  it handled very very nicely.  I will make this many times in the future I am sure.  -marc

Offline widespreadpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1239
  • Location: NH
    • my beer store opening in june 2011
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2011, 12:53:50 AM »
and the rest

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2240
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2011, 03:42:30 AM »
Well folks,  here they are sorry about the long delay.  had to eat them too.  All in all an ecxellent dough and final crust.  The bake times ranged from 3.5 right up to 6 minutes.  I did get is a little too hot for a bit,  but it rolled off nice and balanced.  The crumb was generally very good to great.  Very tender too,  handled and opened up very nicely.  I would decrease my dough ball weight by just a bit next time,  but all the regulars commented on how good and crispy the crust was.  It also stood up well after baking which is great.  I would highly recomend this approach and formula.  I have used similar formulas in the past,  but without the stretch and fold.  I have commented on folds in the past,  and I guess its no secret that it can be very nice in the final dough.  I will post some pictures here,  I always wish they came out better,  but people want to eat them.  Also they will be in order,  from hottest to coolest.  Honestly,  the closer they came to the 5-6 minute mark the better they were.  Thanks for the info on your formula Brian it is excellent,  and for such a well fermented dough,  it handled very very nicely.  I will make this many times in the future I am sure.  -marc

Beautiful Marc!

Matt

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22697
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2011, 09:01:47 AM »
Marc,

I agree, those pizzas are beautiful!  ;D  It is interesting that the crumb was very tender.  Do you think the brand of flour and the stretch and folds contributed to the tender crumb?

Nice job!  Very nice pictures.

Norma

Always working and looking for new information!

Offline widespreadpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1239
  • Location: NH
    • my beer store opening in june 2011
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2011, 10:08:08 AM »
Thanks Matt and Norma,  they were really good.  Norma,  I think the tender crumb was from the relatively high hydration,  the small amout of oil,  and the fast bake time.  I am sure that the flour plays a role too.  I need to find a 50# bag of this flour soon!  The effect was more pronunced the quicker the pizzas were baked.  Next time I will scale to 425-450 grams. -marc
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 11:03:29 AM by widespreadpizza »

Offline BrickStoneOven

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1599
  • Location: Boston
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2011, 10:24:54 AM »
Marc those look great the first one made my stomach growl and I just ate breakfest.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22457
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2011, 10:40:35 AM »
Marc,

Great job.

From the dough formulation you posted, it looks like you made 16" pizzas. Is that right? Also, what flour did you use this time, and did the timing of everything work out right?

You indicated that next time you would use 425-250 gram dough balls. Did you mean 425-450? And did you use your Bosch mixer?

Peter

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22697
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2011, 11:00:31 AM »
Thanks Matt and Norma,  they were really good.  Norma,  I think the tender crumb was from the relatively high hydration,  the small amout of oil,  and the fast bake time.  I am sure that the flour plays a role too.  I need to find a 50# bag of this flour soon!  The effect was more pronunced the quicker the pizzas were baked.  Next time I will scale to 425-250 grams. -marc

Marc,

Thanks for explaining what you thought the tender crumb was from.  I made a dough ball last evening using my preferment Lehmann dough, with Better for Bread flour.  I am going to try and bake the pizza at home today to see if using Better for Bread flour does do something different in formula.  I don't know how lower bake temperatures will affect my dough.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline widespreadpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1239
  • Location: NH
    • my beer store opening in june 2011
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2011, 11:14:46 AM »
Peter,  you are correct I meant 450,  and edited my post.  The pizzas were 16 inches,  my oven door is 17 so thats where I draw the line.  The flour is the HK better for bread.  I am really liking it.  To me its right in the middle of a 00 and high gluten and requires no mixing of flours.  As you can guess the malting shows up at wood oven temps.  I did use the bosch on lowest setting for about 7 minutes.  Thats when the dough looked somewhat choppy, as Brian described,  and it was approaching 75 degrees.  The timing did work out great even at my room temps,  about 68 degrees.  I am guessing that the little bit I went over on yeast on the poolish side of things helped the final fermentation end on time.  As you can see by the picture of the skin,  this dough was very gaseous and was even more so at the end of the night.  It occurred to me last night to try a hybrid of this dough.  I thought to do a sourdough poolish for a shother period of time,  finished with IDY in the final dough.  The window of use might be smaller,  but the results may be excellent?  -marc

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22457
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2011, 11:35:51 AM »
Marc,

If you used the quantities of ingredients in the dough formulation you originally posted, then the poolish quantity by my calculation was about 33% of the total formula flour. In addition to possibly helping the timing factor, it might also have accounted for the gassiness of the final dough, especially if the amount of IDY was higher than if you had used less poolish.

If you decide to try a sourdough version and add IDY to the final mix, I think you should be able to use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. When Mike (Boy Hits Car) and I designed that tool, I badly wanted to have the tool be able to deal with all kinds of commercially leavened preferment applications in the classic vein, including poolish. However, there were so many variations and permutations in the literature, it would have been a nightmare for Mike to do all of the programming (in Flash) to handle all of the permutations. We finally threw in the towel and limited the tool to naturally leavened preferment applications but allowing for the use of commercial yeast as part of the final mix (and oil and sugar for those wanted to try to make Neapolitan style pizzas in their unmodified home ovens).

Peter


 

pizzapan