Author Topic: How to get rid of the water  (Read 45219 times)

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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #80 on: January 22, 2011, 11:51:51 AM »
Peter,  I did want to clear something up.  I think you may have misunderstood how I approached using the calculator(s) for this dough.  What I did the night before is just without any calculator at all make a classic poolish 250gflour/250g water and just under a gram of yeast.  Thats why in the calculator for the final dough,  I used 50% water and 20% of total dough weight for the numbers.  I have done this several times in the calculator and think that it works great.  I may be off on something but I do not think so.  To arrive at the final yeast numbers,  I used the difference between Brians poolish and final dough numbers.  Next time I would use both correctly.  In the future I would use the lehman calculato to determine proper yeast amounts for my poolish which is how I have done it before.  This is how I would use calculate the poolish,  the final dough in the preferment calculator would remain the same.  See what you think. -marc

Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.03264%):
Total (200.03264%):
236.46 g  |  8.34 oz | 0.52 lbs
236.46 g  |  8.34 oz | 0.52 lbs
0.08 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.03 tsp | 0.01 tbsp
473 g | 16.68 oz | 1.04 lbs | TF = N/A


Online Pete-zza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #81 on: January 22, 2011, 02:02:44 PM »
Marc,

While I was out for my daily walk today, I thought about coming up with the latest dough formulation reflecting the dough that Brian now makes at Apizza Scholls. It occurred to me that I should be able to use one of the dough calculating tools to do this. However, I concluded that the best tool to do this is the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. I would use that tool three times, once for the total dough formula, a second time for the poolish preferment (including the poolish IDY) and a final time for the Final Mix. Some calculations using a calculator would be required but the benefit in using the expanded dough calculating tool in the manner mentioned above is that all of the detail for the formulation would be there in the usual three-part format so that if someone else wanted to scale the formulation to make a different size pizza or a dough with somewhat different baker's percents, such as a different yeast quantity, they would see exactly how I did it for my version and do the corresponding calculations for their versions.

The basic equation that I use for preferments, whether naturally-leavened or commercially-leavened, is as follows:

Total Formula - Preferment = Final Mix

In looking at what you did, I have two observations. First, you did not show the IDY that you used as part of the poolish. All of the total formula IDY (0.22 g) shows up in the Final Dough. In my case, I was looking for all of the numbers to conform to the above equation. Also, I apparently misunderstood that you were making more poolish than the dough formulation called for and that you were using just under 1 gram of IDY in that poolish. Again, I would have been looking for all of the numbers to fit the above equation. Second, if I understood you correctly, you said that you used the poolish at 20% of the total dough weight. Since Brian said that he used 20% poolish with respect to the total flour weight, I did not calculate what it would be as a percent of the total dough weight. As I previously noted, the amount of poolish that you showed in the original formulation came to about 33% of the total formula flour (1420.61 g).

At some point, after I have had a chance to revisit the recent posts on this subject, I will see if I can come up with something along the lines that I mentioned above. However, if you are happy with the way you have been doing things, and you describe your methods so that others can follow in your path, then you should continue to do so and not let me deter you from those methods.

Peter

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #82 on: January 22, 2011, 02:34:17 PM »
Peter,  Ah ha, I took it as 20% of the final dough.  I am sorry for the confusion.


I am now only prefermenting 20% of the flour in the poolish. 13 hour poolish using 0.03264% IDY


this is where that clarification was made.  Thank You.   

Edit:In reply number 36 Brian indicated that all of your numbers were correct.  I am wondering though,  the way he stated it above in green,  That makes me think that he meant for example 1000g total flour formula batch would mean 200g of that flour would be in the poolish or is he counting the water as part of the 20% too in which case that would mean only 100g?  If he means 100g,  I would be more inclined to descibe it as prefermenting 10% of the flour.  The water is just along for the ride...?  Maybe Brian can explain?

Well overall,  I was close to Brians methods,  but not exact.  Anyhow the results were great.  I will retry next weekend if possible with an exact copy if possible,  as everyone really seemed to like the outcome.  Thanks-marc
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 02:56:14 PM by widespreadpizza »

Offline norma427

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #83 on: January 22, 2011, 03:00:59 PM »
I made the preferment Lehmann dough pizza using GM (Better for Bread flour) at Brianís (sfspankyís) recommendation for the Better for Bread flour. I want to thank Brian for suggesting the Better for Bread flour.  :) The pizza was better using Better for Bread flour. Not to clog up this thread too much with my pictures, I will post the other pictures under my Preferment Lehmann dough thread and what I did with the dough at Reply 725 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg124104.html#msg124104

Norma
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 03:02:38 PM by norma427 »
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #84 on: January 22, 2011, 03:02:35 PM »
Norma,  great job those look very nice!  I could already eat more pizza,  and that one looks great. -marc

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #85 on: January 22, 2011, 03:05:14 PM »
Norma,  great job those look very nice!  I could already eat more pizza,  and that one looks great. -marc

Marc,

Thanks, I think the Better for Bread flour and Brian's instructions are what made this pizza better.  I could have also eaten some of your pizzas when I saw them.  :)

Norma

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #86 on: January 22, 2011, 04:03:55 PM »
Edit:In reply number 36 Brian indicated that all of your numbers were correct.  I am wondering though,  the way he stated it above in green,  That makes me think that he meant for example 1000g total flour formula batch would mean 200g of that flour would be in the poolish or is he counting the water as part of the 20% too in which case that would mean only 100g?  If he means 100g,  I would be more inclined to descibe it as prefermenting 10% of the flour.  The water is just along for the ride...?  Maybe Brian can explain?

Marc,

When I posted in Reply 36, the way I phrased things was intentional, such that Brian could correct me if I interpreted what he said incorrectly. When I think of poolish, it is always the weight of the poolish with respect to something else, whether it is the total formula flour, the total formula water or the total dough weight. I never think of only the flour in the poolish with respect to some other weight. I'm sure that Brian can set us straight.

The above notwithstanding, you got great results. It has been my experience that a dough formulation can tolerate more changes than most people might think and still get good results. The key is managing the dough properly in terms of structure (the right "feel") and fermentation protocol.

Peter

Edit: When Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12783.msg123574.html#msg123574 is taken together with Brian's comments on the use of 20% poolish, it appears that my earlier analysis is correct.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 04:36:53 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #87 on: January 22, 2011, 04:21:25 PM »
I think the Better for Bread flour and Brian's instructions are what made this pizza better.  I could have also eaten some of your pizzas when I saw them.  :)

I know that Brian is fond of cracker style pizzas. When I did all of my experimenting with DKM's cracker style pizzas, I mainly used, and very much liked, the Better for Bread flour. Were I to make that style of pizza today, I think I would still use the Better for Bread flour. However, as one who watches and reads carefully what members say when they try new flours, it has been my observation that they tend to emphasize the positive attributes of the flour. But once they work more with the flour, they discover that there can be some negatives, such as not getting sufficient crust coloration or enough crispiness, or chewiness, etc. When this happens, the accolades usually end, quietly and without notice. It's the followup that I look for, not just the initial commentary. Like the words of the Carol King song, "Will you still love me tomorrow?"

Peter

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #88 on: January 22, 2011, 05:31:11 PM »
Peter,  just so I have it righ next time around.  This is what I just came up with for a poolish in the lehman calculator,  and the final dough in the preferment calcualtor.  This is with the dough ball size reduced to 425g and a 4 ball batch.  In doing it this way,  I understand there may be very minute differences in yeast,  but are there glaring errors?  Sorry to be beating this to death here.  -marc

next try poolish:

Flour (100%):    102.98 g  |  3.63 oz | 0.23 lbs
Water (100%):    102.98 g  |  3.63 oz | 0.23 lbs
IDY (.03264%):    0.03 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.01 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (200.03264%):   206 g | 7.27 oz | 0.45 lbs | TF = N/A

next try final dough mix

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    1030.21 g  |  36.34 oz | 2.27 lbs
Water (63%):    649.03 g  |  22.89 oz | 1.43 lbs
Salt (2%):    20.6 g | 0.73 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.69 tsp | 1.23 tbsp
IDY (.01519%):    0.16 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.05 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
Total (165.01519%):   1700 g | 59.96 oz | 3.75 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   425 g | 14.99 oz | 0.94 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:    103.02 g | 3.63 oz | 0.23 lbs
Water:    103.02 g | 3.63 oz | 0.23 lbs
Total:    206.04 g | 7.27 oz | 0.45 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    927.19 g | 32.71 oz | 2.04 lbs
Water:    546.01 g | 19.26 oz | 1.2 lbs
Salt:    20.6 g | 0.73 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.69 tsp | 1.23 tbsp
IDY:    0.16 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.05 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
Preferment:    206.04 g | 7.27 oz | 0.45 lbs
Total:    1700 g | 59.96 oz | 3.75 lbs  | TF = N/A

Online Pete-zza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #89 on: January 22, 2011, 06:08:50 PM »
Marc,

It's no problem.

Are you still intending to make 16" pizzas? Also, are you omitting the oil that Brian now uses in his dough (see Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.msg123521.html#msg123521)? Also, Brian uses 0.04783% IDY in the total formula and 0.03264% IDY for the poolish. Do you want to use the same combintion for your dough or do you want to use 0.01519% for the total formula and 0.03254% IDY for the poolish, as your latest dough formulation calls for?

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #90 on: January 22, 2011, 06:11:51 PM »
I know that Brian is fond of cracker style pizzas. When I did all of my experimenting with DKM's cracker style pizzas, I mainly used, and very much liked, the Better for Bread flour. Were I to make that style of pizza today, I think I would still use the Better for Bread flour. However, as one who watches and reads carefully what members say when they try new flours, it has been my observation that they tend to emphasize the positive attributes of the flour. But once they work more with the flour, they discover that there can be some negatives, such as not getting sufficient crust coloration or enough crispiness, or chewiness, etc. When this happens, the accolades usually end, quietly and without notice. It's the followup that I look for, not just the initial commentary. Like the words of the Carol King song, "Will you still love me tomorrow?"

Peter

Peter,

I know how I have just stated in my last post,  I liked the Better for Bread flour better in my preferment Lehmann dough for my home oven, at least in one test dough. As I have done before, I will do all the tests to see if the Better for Bread flour, does continue to give me good results.  If I donít get good results or find my dough isnít working out right, I will let the forum know.  I am picky about my dough and pizzas and will go though all the tests.  I will always tell if I have failures and what I thought contributed to the failures.

Norma
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #91 on: January 22, 2011, 09:03:38 PM »
Peter,  wow what a day and a formula.,  and I still don't have it right. 

Yes still 16" but I want a dough ball weight of 425g. 
Yes I forgot the 1.5% oil,  shows you how often I use it.
Whatever you think on the yeast,  I clearly got so confused chasing the info that my confusion is confused still.  Thanks -marc

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #92 on: January 22, 2011, 09:31:10 PM »
In reply number 36 Brian indicated that all of your numbers were correct.  I am wondering though,  the way he stated it above in green,  That makes me think that he meant for example 1000g total flour formula batch would mean 200g of that flour would be in the poolish or is he counting the water as part of the 20% too in which case that would mean only 100g?  If he means 100g,  I would be more inclined to descibe it as prefermenting 10% of the flour.  The water is just along for the ride...? 

No, water is not in the equation. 20% of the flour is prefermented before being introduced to the final dough. I think the final numbers are not as important, as everyone works with different flours in different climates, which create variables that achieve different results. What's most important is that you are getting desired results in the amount of time you intend to work with.

That being said, I'll post my formula on Monday (away from the pizzeria this weekend) and you will see the numbers as they are run in our production at the pizzeria.

I must admit that since I am no longer using baker's math everyday, like I did in the bakery days, has made me a little soft and I need to brush up. The numbers I provided were correct, however there might be some confusion to my reply.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #93 on: January 22, 2011, 09:45:37 PM »
Brian,  thanks for the offer to clarify.  I appreciate it.  I agree about the variables,  and if the end result is great then thats all thats important.  Its just a rare opportunity for us on the forum to try a pros formula to a T on our own and in our own ovens.  If you have noticed the thread on the tartine bread you will see that great directions and skilled members yield superior results. Thanks -marc

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #94 on: January 22, 2011, 09:56:41 PM »
Brian,  thanks for the offer to clarify.  I appreciate it.  I agree about the variables,  and if the end result is great then thats all thats important.  Its just a rare opportunity for us on the forum to try a pros formula to a T on our own and in our own ovens.  If you have noticed the thread on the tartine bread you will see that great directions and skilled members yield superior results. Thanks -marc

Always glad to share. I am glad you like the dough and were happy with the results. I like a nice crispy exterior, and the long preferment brings a lot of acid to the table, to help reinforce the gluten bonds. The longer bake time also helps wisp away moisture which keeps the crust crunchy as it cools. I really don't like soft and supple pizza crust, which is why I don't lean toward the classic naples style pizza made with 00 flour. Not that I don't think it's good... it just isn't my preference. I like this style and cracker style the best.

I'll get those numbers posted on Monday... I promise.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #95 on: January 22, 2011, 10:13:27 PM »
Marc,

I was used to relating the poolish to the total formula water rather than the total formula flour. So, it looks like you were using the proper amount, or something close to it, in your recent experiment after all. Based on your recent example of four 425-gram dough balls, I used the expanded dough calculating tool and came up with the following:

Total Dough Formulation
Better for Bread Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.04783%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (1.5%):
Total (166.54783%):
Single Ball:
1020.73 g  |  36 oz | 2.25 lbs
643.06 g  |  22.68 oz | 1.42 lbs
0.49 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
20.41 g | 0.72 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.66 tsp | 1.22 tbsp
15.31 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.4 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
1700 g | 59.96 oz | 3.75 lbs | TF = N/A
425 g | 14.99 oz | 0.94 lbs

Preferment (Poolish)
Better for Bread Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.03264%):
Total (200.03264%):
204.15 g  |  7.2 oz | 0.45 lbs
204.15 g  |  7.2 oz | 0.45 lbs
0.07 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.02 tsp | 0.01 tbsp
408.36 g | 14.4 oz | 0.9 lbs | TF = N/A

Final Mix
Preferment (Poolish)--From above (408.36 g)
Remaining Total Formula Better for Bread Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (53.75%):
Remaining Total formula IDY (0.05185%):
Total Formula Salt (2.49944%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.87488%):
Total (158.17617%):
816.58 g  |  28.8 oz | 1.8 lbs
438.91 g  |  15.48 oz | 0.97 lbs
0.42 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.14 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
20.41 g | 0.72 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.66 tsp | 1.22 tbsp
15.31 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.4 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
1291.64 g | 45.56 oz | 2.85 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

In the Final Mix, I left in the baker's percents. I had to use them in order to use the expanded dough calculating tool.

I will leave it to you if you want to wait for Brian to post the formula he uses. I might add that Brian uses 62% hydration rather than 63% hydration. I assumed that you selected 63% for a reason.

Peter

Edit: Corrected Final Mix data


« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 10:38:49 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #96 on: January 22, 2011, 10:27:09 PM »
Marc,

I was used to relating the poolish to the total formula water rather than the total formula flour. So, it looks like you were using the proper amount, or something close to it, in your recent experiment after all. Based on your recent example of four 425-gram dough balls, I used the expanded dough calculating tool and came up with the following:

Total Dough Formulation
Better for Bread Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.04783%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (1.5%):
Total (166.54783%):
Single Ball:
1020.73 g  |  36 oz | 2.25 lbs
643.06 g  |  22.68 oz | 1.42 lbs
0.49 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
20.41 g | 0.72 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.66 tsp | 1.22 tbsp
15.31 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.4 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
1700 g | 59.96 oz | 3.75 lbs | TF = N/A
425 g | 14.99 oz | 0.94 lbs

Preferment (Poolish)
Better for Bread Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.03264%):
Total (200.03264%):
204.15 g  |  7.2 oz | 0.45 lbs
204.15 g  |  7.2 oz | 0.45 lbs
0.07 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.02 tsp | 0.01 tbsp
408.36 g | 14.4 oz | 0.9 lbs | TF = N/A

Final Mix
Preferment (Poolish)--From above (408.36 g)
Remaining Total Formula Better for Bread Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (53.75%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.10206%):
Total Formula Salt (2.49944%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.87488%):
Total (158.22638%):
816.58 g  |  28.8 oz | 1.8 lbs
438.91 g  |  15.48 oz | 0.97 lbs
0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
20.41 g | 0.72 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.66 tsp | 1.22 tbsp
15.31 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.4 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
1292.05 g | 45.57 oz | 2.85 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

In the Final Mix, I left in the baker's percents. I had to use them in order to use the expanded dough calculating tool.

I will leave it to you if you want to wait for Brian to post the formula he uses. I might add that Brian uses 62% hydration rather than 63% hydration. I assumed that you selected 63% for a reason.

Peter




Your final mix IDY is way off. Should be only .42g

Awesome work, none the less! You are an amazing asset to this site.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #97 on: January 22, 2011, 10:42:05 PM »
Your final mix IDY is way off. Should be only .42g

Awesome work, none the less! You are an amazing asset to this site.

Brian,

Thanks for catching my error. As I was posting, I knew that I was off somewhere. I have corrected the error.

And thanks for the nice compliment.

Peter

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #98 on: January 22, 2011, 10:46:54 PM »
Peter,  nice work.  Just so you have an answer to the 63%,  Brian had mentioned using 62-65 depending on the batch of flour he has at the time,  I chose the low middle of that range.  Thanks to both of you.  -marc

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2011, 10:50:52 PM »
Peter,  nice work.  Just so you have an answer to the 63%,  Brian had mentioned using 62-65 depending on the batch of flour he has at the time,  I chose the low middle of that range.  Thanks to both of you.  -marc

Every lot of flour is different. We sometimes add or subtract up to 2% of flour in extreme situations. Mills are constantly using flour grown in different regions, which produce different results. For the most part, we only have to adjust the water .5 - 1% in either direction, which is a testament to it's consistency.

Since, I don't know about "Better for Bread", is this what GM is now labeling this flour at the retail level?
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls


 

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