Author Topic: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book  (Read 27980 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #650 on: February 01, 2011, 08:53:13 PM »
I have also notice this.  I would also like to add that in my experience, stickiness has everything to do with gluten development or lack there of.   If the gluten has not been developed enough, the dough will inevitably be sticky.  If you develop the gluten further by kneading or stretch and folds, the gluten matrix will hold the water better and you will get a tacky skin but it won't be sticky if that makes sense.   You can make incredibly wet doughs that aren't sticky.  They maybe somewhat slack but won't be unmanageable if there is enough gluten built in.  Take a look at the "pizzarium" thread and look at the dough.  Look at how some of the doughs are pulled up high to display their strength.  They look like stretch mozzarella!   If you put a bit of bench flour on this type of dough, just enough to put a thin layer on the outside, you can handle it without sticking issues.  

If you are increasing the hydration for this bread, it is important to do 5-6 folds per turn, not just 3-4 as the book instructs.  I have even done 6-8 folds per turn.  Make this change and you will see a big difference in the stickiness problem.

Chau


Chau,

I'm not sure if you were addressing me or member Trosenberg but I don't have the problem any longer.
Mike

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #651 on: February 01, 2011, 09:01:31 PM »
Mike I was addressing member Trosenberg.  I was only quoting part of your post to say that I agree that more bench flour in the banneton might solve his problem as well or that his problem may lay in not using enough bench flour.  But since he also stated that he has been gradually increasing hydration rates, I'm sure it's a gluten development issue. 

I can see that you no longer have that issue especially with your last bread that you posted.   ;)  It is quite stunning.    ;D

But yes Trosenberg, anytime hydration is upped you have to build more strength in the dough to match the hydration.  You can either do that by doing more cycles of turns or more folds per turn.  It's all about balance.   

Oh and Bill, the panini looks fabulous!

Chau
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 09:05:04 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #652 on: February 01, 2011, 10:03:06 PM »
I made another attempt at the Tartine bread tonight.  I mixed the dough last night and did the stretch and folds, then refrigerated the dough until this morning.  I did numerous stretch and folds and left the dough out all day until tonight when I baked the dough.  I used Better for Bread  450 grams and KAWW flour 50 grams in the formula, 100 grams of my preferment Lehmann poolish, 380 grams of water, 10 grams salt and 1 gram of cake yeast.

I need to get a better combo cooker and I also need to get a lame.  None of my knives at home are sharp enough to slit the dough.  I used a regular bread basket and kitchen towel to proof the dough after it was floured.

I couldnít wait until the Tartine bread was cool enough to cut it. 

Pictures below

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #653 on: February 01, 2011, 10:04:01 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #654 on: February 01, 2011, 10:05:16 PM »
Norma,

Very nice!

Looks like you're getting the hang of it.  :)
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #655 on: February 01, 2011, 10:08:46 PM »
Norma,

Very nice!

Looks like you're getting the hang of it.  :)

Mike,

Thanks!  I am still learning about this bread and I need to get better equipment, but this bread is almost like the Pizzarium dough.  To me it behaves the same way.

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #656 on: February 01, 2011, 10:13:44 PM »
Mike I was addressing member Trosenberg.  I was only quoting part of your post to say that I agree that more bench flour in the banneton might solve his problem as well or that his problem may lay in not using enough bench flour.  But since he also stated that he has been gradually increasing hydration rates, I'm sure it's a gluten development issue. 

I can see that you no longer have that issue especially with your last bread that you posted.   ;)  It is quite stunning.    ;D

But yes Trosenberg, anytime hydration is upped you have to build more strength in the dough to match the hydration.  You can either do that by doing more cycles of turns or more folds per turn.  It's all about balance.   

Oh and Bill, the panini looks fabulous!

Chau

Chau,

The only problem I see with added stretch & folds and therefor a stronger gluten development/matrix is that it tends to make the dough chewier. Not to forget that an increased wetness of a dough, or a higher hydration, also enhances the gluten development. So more stretch & folds plus higher hydration may be counterproductive for this type of bread, which is intended to be light and extremely airy.

I'm afraid if the two things mentioned above are combined, you might end up with a denser, chewier bread instead of a big airy crumb. But I think it also depends on individual technique, baking equipment and proofing times.

Just my $0.02...
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #657 on: February 01, 2011, 10:15:22 PM »
Mike,

Thanks!  I am still learning about this bread and I need to get better equipment, but this bread is almost like the Pizzarium dough.  To me it behaves the same way.

Norma

Norma,

I'm not familiar with the Pizzarium dough. I've seen the thread about it but have yet to fully read it. If you can get your hands on the combo cooker at Amazon, I'd say spend the money because the breads come out of this thing absolutely fantastic.
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #658 on: February 01, 2011, 10:20:45 PM »
Norma,

I'm not familiar with the Pizzarium dough. I've seen the thread about it but have yet to fully read it. If you can get your hands on the combo cooker at Amazon, I'd say spend the money because the breads come out of this thing absolutely fantastic.

Mike,

The Pizzarium dough, at least to me is the same as the Tartine dough.  I do need to get a combo cooker to be able to make the Tartine Bread better.  Maybe in the next couple of months.  I would like to see the kind of results I could get with a combo cooker.  I also have a steamer cleaner.  I wonder if that would work at all. 

Norma


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #659 on: February 01, 2011, 10:29:23 PM »
Mike, I have noticed just the opposite.  That higher hydration or wetter doughs don't enhance gluten development for me but actually maker it harder to develop gluten.  It does enhance fermentation though, which because we are using starters produces more acids and can strengthen the gluten structure more.  So maybe that is what you are referring to.  

On wetter doughs and/or using lower protein flours, I always have to knead more to develop a comparable amount of gluten compared to a lower hydration/higher protein dough.   Also I agree that increase gluten development can lead to a chewier crumb but again it's all about balance.  Too much gluten development (ie too many stretch and folds) can lead to a tougher crumb, so the amount of turns does have to be balance out to match hydrations and bake times.   The bread I posted recently in the thread "experiment to see if a starter can be contaminated" had a hydration of 81% using HG flour and the extra stretch and folds I was referring to and the crumb was really soft and airy.  It remains soft 2 days after the bake.  But again, I baked it out moist and not dry.

I also agree that fermentation times can affect gluten development and toughness of the end crumb as well.  I'll also add that bake times and temps also affect the chewiness and dryness as well.  You can overknead a dough and bake it out wet/moist and not notice the chewiness compared to baking it out dry.  But that has been my experience, YMMV.  So yes, a combination of factors not merely just increase gluten development can come into play here.  

I hope member Trosenberg will give us an update on his next bake if he decides to do the extra folds to see if it helped or not.

Chau
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 11:16:31 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #660 on: February 02, 2011, 10:28:59 AM »
I couldnít wait until the Tartine bread was cool enough to cut it. 

Very nice, Norma. I bet it tasted great too. I know what you mean about not being able to wait to cut into it. Whenever I bake bread, the family gathers with sticks of butter in hand, and I have to fight them off with a wooden spoon until the bread is cool enough to cut.

Craig
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Offline norma427

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #661 on: February 02, 2011, 12:00:21 PM »
Very nice, Norma. I bet it tasted great too. I know what you mean about not being able to wait to cut into it. Whenever I bake bread, the family gathers with sticks of butter in hand, and I have to fight them off with a wooden spoon until the bread is cool enough to cut.

Craig

Craig,

Thanks, it does taste great!  I had a slice slathered with butter this morning for breakfast.  I am going to get some Mortadella today and make some Panini's for dinner with the bread I made yesterday.  An all green small grocery store just recently opened in my area.  They get the best Italian meats from NY, so I am anxious to try their Mortadella on a Panini. 

How many times did you make the Tartine Bread?  I can see why you have to fight off your family with a wooden spoon until the bread cools enough to cut. lol  This bread is really great, even though I don't have the right equipment for baking. 

I didn't try the formula with Whole Wheat before.  I think it does add more flavor than the last attempt I made.  I didn't think the bread I just made would be so moist, but it was. 

Norma

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #662 on: February 02, 2011, 02:44:22 PM »
Norma,

I have only made the Tartine bread (or my approximation of it) twice, though last night I made some tartine-style dough and put it in the fridge. My first two loaves had about 30 hours total fermentation. This one will have 3 or 4 days. I make some sort of bread almost ever week - and literally every time someone is in the kitchen trying to cut into it before it is ready, and it gets all squished up.

Last time, I baked the loaf on the cast iron lid of the dutch oven and used the bottom as the top. This time, I think I'm going to put the dough straight on the stone and only use the bottom of the dutch over as a cover. I also want to try it without a cover and instead spray a mist of water in the oven on a regular basis for the first 20 minutes and see what happens.

Your mortadella panini will be wonderful. To me, good mortadella, warmed up, a little is like eating porky butter - on your bread, it will be otherworldly.

Craig
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Offline norma427

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #663 on: February 02, 2011, 04:03:24 PM »
Craig,

Your breads sound delicious.  :) I like the way you tinker with trying different ways to go about baking bread.  I also want to try at some point in time to use my steam cleaner to try injecting steam into my oven.  That thing if powerful, but I sure donít know what kind of results I would get. 

Norma

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #664 on: February 03, 2011, 01:51:43 PM »
Tried something different today - not out of any kind of creative inspiration, but because an urgent matter required me to leave the house just after I had started making Tartine dough. I had just combined the starter, water, and flours for their 30-40 minute autolyse. I sprayed some water over the dough and covered it with plastic to prevent it from drying out. When I returned about 4 hours later, I kneaded in the salt and extra water and then continued with the standard folding sequence.

At any rate, this was the lightest and tastiest batch yet. Not sure what is going on or whether the interruption had anything to do with it. But I'm going to see if I can reproduce these results on the next batch.



Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #665 on: February 03, 2011, 02:33:38 PM »
Aside from the lightness, did your crumb look any different than usual Bill?  Closer to one of Chad's loaves?  Did you note a larger than normal spring in the loaf?

Chau

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #666 on: February 03, 2011, 05:00:07 PM »
Aside from the lightness, did your crumb look any different than usual Bill?  Closer to one of Chad's loaves?  Did you note a larger than normal spring in the loaf?

Chau

Chau,

Yes it did look different and there was a larger than usual oven spring. I would guess the holes were about 10% larger than normal. No time today for photos. Tomorrow we'll be cutting into one of loaves for lunch - I'll try to get a shot of the crumb.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #667 on: February 03, 2011, 05:18:34 PM »
Looking forward to the pics Bill.  Do you have some ideas as to what transpired?  Btw, my latest holey breads also had a longer than normal autolyse time of an hour plus.  Not quite 4 hours but longer than 30-40m.   Assuming you used 20% starter/leaven, I'm curious to know your total fermentation time including the 4 hour autolyse.

Chau

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #668 on: February 04, 2011, 10:54:25 AM »
I used the Tartine bread I made the other day and make a Panini for breakfast this morning.  For the Panini I used  Mortadella with pistachios, fresh greens, Parmigiano-Reggiano, sliced mozzarella, and garlic herb infused oil  brushed on the Tartine bread before putting the Panini on the grill.  I also had some celery with peanut butter, grape tomatoes, and kalamata olives. 

Pictures below

Norma

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #669 on: February 04, 2011, 10:16:24 PM »
This one was 83% HR and all KABF.  Being lazy, I tried Bill's four hour autolyse and added the final water and salt at hour four.  The water and salt were squished in and the dough was then treated with the typical loaf forming folds.  Just like Bill did.  It seems I'm wandering back into the Lahey No-Knead world here with this approach.  Holes were not as evenly distributed as I'd have liked, and still too large.  After 55 min total bake a bit moist for my tastes.  I think I'll roll everything back a bit next time.

Parallei.......waiting for warmer weather for my 2Stone :(
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 11:11:49 PM by parallei »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #670 on: February 04, 2011, 10:47:14 PM »
Parallei,

If the holes aren't distributed evenly I have a feeling that something is going wrong somewhere between the stages of the stretch & folds, the first shaping preceding the bench rest and the final folding into a loaf.

I also think it has something to do with the containers each of us is using and that they may differ from what Chad is using at his bakery (if he's using any at all and not just a big tub because of the sheer numbers they put out each day).

The flour one uses also might have an impact. I have used several different flours ranging from the original Tartine flour from Central Milling in Petaluma, to Giusto's Artisan BF from South San Francisco, King Arthur BF, Stone Buhr BF and several homemade blends. I have to say that the best results I have achieved so far with this bread is when using a 75/25 blend of KABF and the flour from Central Milling. Stone Buhr is also a great alternative.

However, I think the folding part, the last stage before you give the dough the final rise, is the most crucial one.

Also, I think that the flour's absorption rate play a huge factor. If one exceeds that rate to a point where the flour just can't take in or handle any more water. An over-hydrated dough turns into a soft, sticky blob of yeasty mess.

83% might be too much for the KABF to handle. I say KABF because I assume that's what you referred to when you said KABP. Regarding flours, Stone Buhr BF is an excellent flour with good hydration abilities. If you can get it in your area, use it. My local stores have stopped selling it for whatever reason so I now have to search a little deeper to get my hands on a bag.

My suggestion is, lower the hydration back down to maybe 75% and concentrate more on your folding and shaping techniques until you get the desired results in the crumb. Takes notes all the way while doing it.

Hope that helps a little...

Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #671 on: February 04, 2011, 10:48:28 PM »
Para,

Forgot to ask...how do you bake your bread? In a combo cooker, directly on a stone or in a WFO?
Mike

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #672 on: February 04, 2011, 11:40:17 PM »
Hey Mike,

Thanks for the suggestions and time you put into your response.  Yes it was KABF (no "P") and rolling back the HR is what I had in mind also.  As far as a container goes, I usually do 1/2 recipe and just use a bowl.  It never occurred to me that the container the bulk rise is done in would have any effect.  I do the turns/folds and forming pretty much by the book and use a combo cooker.  I'll give it a go again next weekend.


Paul


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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #673 on: February 05, 2011, 12:12:55 AM »
Hey Mike,

 As far as a container goes, I usually do 1/2 recipe and just use a bowl. 

Paul


Paul,

If you split the recipe in half and use a bowl combined with 83% hydration...doesn't the dough completely flatten out in the bowl, showing very minimal rise?

I use a rectangular container with a lid. You can see it in some of the pics of the very first post...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.msg112755.html#msg112755

I really believe that it gives the dough a completely different rise compared to a bowl and therefor a different crumb. You can get square or rectangular containers in almost every restaurant supply store.

If you decided to lower the hydration and gradually increase it again, please let us know how it turns out, Paul.

Good luck.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 12:15:01 AM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #674 on: February 05, 2011, 07:04:40 AM »
This one was 83% HR and all KABF.  Being lazy, I tried Bill's four hour autolyse and added the final water and salt at hour four.  The water and salt were squished in and the dough was then treated with the typical loaf forming folds.  Just like Bill did.  It seems I'm wandering back into the Lahey No-Knead world here with this approach.  Holes were not as evenly distributed as I'd have liked, and still too large.  After 55 min total bake a bit moist for my tastes.  I think I'll roll everything back a bit next time.

Parallei.......waiting for warmer weather for my 2Stone :(

Paul - Getting the hydration back down will help. Also, I use KABF for my Tartine loaves - I love the texture this flour gives, and the crust is shattering but holds it's crunch for days. I get the same crumb structure you got when I neglect to do enough turns during the bulk. KABF needs that development time - it is a very hearty flour. I keep it around 80 degrees for the entire 4 hour bulk by turning on the oven for a minute, placing the container in there, and then shutting it off. The turns are done every 20 minutes for the first two hours, and then every 30 or so in the last two hours. By then, it is nice and billowy and ready for shaping.

John