Author Topic: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book  (Read 18305 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #640 on: February 01, 2011, 02:03:29 PM »
Here are some shots of today's panini. Anything tastes good on Tartine bread, but this sandwich was over the top. 

- 2-day old rustic Tartine bread
- WFO-roasted rare rib-eye roast
- Piquillo peppers
- Red onion marmalade
- Le Roule Garlic & Herbs Cheese Spread
- Arugula

Cole slaw and home-made chips on the side.



Offline trosenberg

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #641 on: February 01, 2011, 07:50:33 PM »
I have been baking this bread on a regular basis for the past few months.  I have been retarding the dough for between 18-36 hours with success. A problem I have as I have gradually increased hydration is that the shaped loaves stick to both a banneton and canvas couche: this despite a very liberal dusting of a 50/50 mix of flour & rice flour.  Suggestions for a solution appreciated.
Trosenberg

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #642 on: February 01, 2011, 07:56:00 PM »
I have been baking this bread on a regular basis for the past few months.  I have been retarding the dough for between 18-36 hours with success. A problem I have as I have gradually increased hydration is that the shaped loaves stick to both a banneton and canvas couche: this despite a very liberal dusting of a 50/50 mix of flour & rice flour.  Suggestions for a solution appreciated.

How long is the dough proofing in the banneton or couche? After a long bulk fermentation, mine is proofed in linen-lined baskets for around 3 hours. Never had a sticking problem.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #643 on: February 01, 2011, 08:10:06 PM »
Here are some shots of today's panini. Anything tastes good on Tartine bread, but this sandwich was over the top. 

- 2-day old rustic Tartine bread
- WFO-roasted rare rib-eye roast
- Piquillo peppers
- Red onion marmalade
- Le Roule Garlic & Herbs Cheese Spread
- Arugula

Cole slaw and home-made chips on the side.



What...no Ajvar sauce?   ;D

Bill, you got to tell me why you haven't opened a restaurant? Those Panini's look perfect!
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #644 on: February 01, 2011, 08:14:44 PM »
I have been baking this bread on a regular basis for the past few months.  I have been retarding the dough for between 18-36 hours with success. A problem I have as I have gradually increased hydration is that the shaped loaves stick to both a banneton and canvas couche: this despite a very liberal dusting of a 50/50 mix of flour & rice flour.  Suggestions for a solution appreciated.

I do the proofing just like Bill except with a shorter time frame. However, I had the same sticking problem on a couple of early loaves. What solved the problem for me was A) a generous dusting of the linen-lined baskets and B) a generous dusting of the side of the loaf that will be touching the cloth before I put it into the basket.

I noticed, though, that the warmer the dough becomes during the final proofing stage the more sluggish and sticky it gets so I try to keep it a bit on the cooler side.
Mike

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http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #645 on: February 01, 2011, 08:32:41 PM »
What...no Ajvar sauce?   ;D

Bill, you got to tell me why you haven't opened a restaurant? Those Panini's look perfect!

Thanks, Mike. Look, I have a great deal of respect for people who have what it takes to operate a successful restaurant. But so much of the tremendous energy required has nothing to do with creating appealing food. I love cooking for the people I care about; cooking the same things day-in, day-out for strangers who rightfully demand their money's worth is completely devoid of any appeal for me. If I were to have to take a job in the food business, I would take Jeffry Steingarten's.  ;)

Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #646 on: February 01, 2011, 08:41:04 PM »
The food critic.

I guess it was more of a rhetorical question to begin with. But, I still think that your food would be a great addition and a huge success in the field due to its sometimes exotic ingredients and extremely creative ideas and execution.

Jeffrey Steingarten would approve, I'm pretty positive about that.  ;D

Either way, the Paninis look dynamite.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #647 on: February 01, 2011, 08:47:02 PM »
I have been baking this bread on a regular basis for the past few months.  I have been retarding the dough for between 18-36 hours with success. A problem I have as I have gradually increased hydration is that the shaped loaves stick to both a banneton and canvas couche: this despite a very liberal dusting of a 50/50 mix of flour & rice flour.  Suggestions for a solution appreciated.

I noticed, though, that the warmer the dough becomes during the final proofing stage the more sluggish and sticky it gets so I try to keep it a bit on the cooler side.

I have also notice this.  I would also like to add that in my experience, stickiness has everything to do with gluten development or lack there of.   If the gluten has not been developed enough, the dough will inevitably be sticky.  If you develop the gluten further by kneading or stretch and folds, the gluten matrix will hold the water better and you will get a tacky skin but it won't be sticky if that makes sense.   You can make incredibly wet doughs that aren't sticky.  They maybe somewhat slack but won't be unmanageable if there is enough gluten built in.  Take a look at the "pizzarium" thread and look at the dough.  Look at how some of the doughs are pulled up high to display their strength.  They look like stretch mozzarella!   If you put a bit of bench flour on this type of dough, just enough to put a thin layer on the outside, you can handle it without sticking issues.  

If you are increasing the hydration for this bread, it is important to do 5-6 folds per turn, not just 3-4 as the book instructs.  I have even done 6-8 folds per turn.  Make this change and you will see a big difference in the stickiness problem.

Chau
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 08:50:22 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline trosenberg

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #648 on: February 01, 2011, 08:49:45 PM »
I have been proofing for about 3-4 hours as well. Maybe I just got the hydration too high. Hummmm.
Trosenberg

Offline trosenberg

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #649 on: February 01, 2011, 08:52:33 PM »
Thanks Jackie Tran. I'll try your approach as I have tried everything else!   
Trosenberg


Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #650 on: February 01, 2011, 08:53:13 PM »
I have also notice this.  I would also like to add that in my experience, stickiness has everything to do with gluten development or lack there of.   If the gluten has not been developed enough, the dough will inevitably be sticky.  If you develop the gluten further by kneading or stretch and folds, the gluten matrix will hold the water better and you will get a tacky skin but it won't be sticky if that makes sense.   You can make incredibly wet doughs that aren't sticky.  They maybe somewhat slack but won't be unmanageable if there is enough gluten built in.  Take a look at the "pizzarium" thread and look at the dough.  Look at how some of the doughs are pulled up high to display their strength.  They look like stretch mozzarella!   If you put a bit of bench flour on this type of dough, just enough to put a thin layer on the outside, you can handle it without sticking issues.  

If you are increasing the hydration for this bread, it is important to do 5-6 folds per turn, not just 3-4 as the book instructs.  I have even done 6-8 folds per turn.  Make this change and you will see a big difference in the stickiness problem.

Chau


Chau,

I'm not sure if you were addressing me or member Trosenberg but I don't have the problem any longer.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #651 on: February 01, 2011, 09:01:31 PM »
Mike I was addressing member Trosenberg.  I was only quoting part of your post to say that I agree that more bench flour in the banneton might solve his problem as well or that his problem may lay in not using enough bench flour.  But since he also stated that he has been gradually increasing hydration rates, I'm sure it's a gluten development issue. 

I can see that you no longer have that issue especially with your last bread that you posted.   ;)  It is quite stunning.    ;D

But yes Trosenberg, anytime hydration is upped you have to build more strength in the dough to match the hydration.  You can either do that by doing more cycles of turns or more folds per turn.  It's all about balance.   

Oh and Bill, the panini looks fabulous!

Chau
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 09:05:04 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #652 on: February 01, 2011, 10:03:06 PM »
I made another attempt at the Tartine bread tonight.  I mixed the dough last night and did the stretch and folds, then refrigerated the dough until this morning.  I did numerous stretch and folds and left the dough out all day until tonight when I baked the dough.  I used Better for Bread  450 grams and KAWW flour 50 grams in the formula, 100 grams of my preferment Lehmann poolish, 380 grams of water, 10 grams salt and 1 gram of cake yeast.

I need to get a better combo cooker and I also need to get a lame.  None of my knives at home are sharp enough to slit the dough.  I used a regular bread basket and kitchen towel to proof the dough after it was floured.

I couldn’t wait until the Tartine bread was cool enough to cut it. 

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #653 on: February 01, 2011, 10:04:01 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #654 on: February 01, 2011, 10:05:16 PM »
Norma,

Very nice!

Looks like you're getting the hang of it.  :)
Mike

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http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline norma427

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #655 on: February 01, 2011, 10:08:46 PM »
Norma,

Very nice!

Looks like you're getting the hang of it.  :)

Mike,

Thanks!  I am still learning about this bread and I need to get better equipment, but this bread is almost like the Pizzarium dough.  To me it behaves the same way.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #656 on: February 01, 2011, 10:13:44 PM »
Mike I was addressing member Trosenberg.  I was only quoting part of your post to say that I agree that more bench flour in the banneton might solve his problem as well or that his problem may lay in not using enough bench flour.  But since he also stated that he has been gradually increasing hydration rates, I'm sure it's a gluten development issue. 

I can see that you no longer have that issue especially with your last bread that you posted.   ;)  It is quite stunning.    ;D

But yes Trosenberg, anytime hydration is upped you have to build more strength in the dough to match the hydration.  You can either do that by doing more cycles of turns or more folds per turn.  It's all about balance.   

Oh and Bill, the panini looks fabulous!

Chau

Chau,

The only problem I see with added stretch & folds and therefor a stronger gluten development/matrix is that it tends to make the dough chewier. Not to forget that an increased wetness of a dough, or a higher hydration, also enhances the gluten development. So more stretch & folds plus higher hydration may be counterproductive for this type of bread, which is intended to be light and extremely airy.

I'm afraid if the two things mentioned above are combined, you might end up with a denser, chewier bread instead of a big airy crumb. But I think it also depends on individual technique, baking equipment and proofing times.

Just my $0.02...
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Essen1

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #657 on: February 01, 2011, 10:15:22 PM »
Mike,

Thanks!  I am still learning about this bread and I need to get better equipment, but this bread is almost like the Pizzarium dough.  To me it behaves the same way.

Norma

Norma,

I'm not familiar with the Pizzarium dough. I've seen the thread about it but have yet to fully read it. If you can get your hands on the combo cooker at Amazon, I'd say spend the money because the breads come out of this thing absolutely fantastic.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline norma427

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #658 on: February 01, 2011, 10:20:45 PM »
Norma,

I'm not familiar with the Pizzarium dough. I've seen the thread about it but have yet to fully read it. If you can get your hands on the combo cooker at Amazon, I'd say spend the money because the breads come out of this thing absolutely fantastic.

Mike,

The Pizzarium dough, at least to me is the same as the Tartine dough.  I do need to get a combo cooker to be able to make the Tartine Bread better.  Maybe in the next couple of months.  I would like to see the kind of results I could get with a combo cooker.  I also have a steamer cleaner.  I wonder if that would work at all. 

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Rustic Country Bread from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #659 on: February 01, 2011, 10:29:23 PM »
Mike, I have noticed just the opposite.  That higher hydration or wetter doughs don't enhance gluten development for me but actually maker it harder to develop gluten.  It does enhance fermentation though, which because we are using starters produces more acids and can strengthen the gluten structure more.  So maybe that is what you are referring to.  

On wetter doughs and/or using lower protein flours, I always have to knead more to develop a comparable amount of gluten compared to a lower hydration/higher protein dough.   Also I agree that increase gluten development can lead to a chewier crumb but again it's all about balance.  Too much gluten development (ie too many stretch and folds) can lead to a tougher crumb, so the amount of turns does have to be balance out to match hydrations and bake times.   The bread I posted recently in the thread "experiment to see if a starter can be contaminated" had a hydration of 81% using HG flour and the extra stretch and folds I was referring to and the crumb was really soft and airy.  It remains soft 2 days after the bake.  But again, I baked it out moist and not dry.

I also agree that fermentation times can affect gluten development and toughness of the end crumb as well.  I'll also add that bake times and temps also affect the chewiness and dryness as well.  You can overknead a dough and bake it out wet/moist and not notice the chewiness compared to baking it out dry.  But that has been my experience, YMMV.  So yes, a combination of factors not merely just increase gluten development can come into play here.  

I hope member Trosenberg will give us an update on his next bake if he decides to do the extra folds to see if it helped or not.

Chau
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 11:16:31 PM by Jackie Tran »


 

pizzapan