Author Topic: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book  (Read 26597 times)

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Offline ponzu

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2010, 01:20:33 AM »
Alexi.

Is it possible your friends are just being polite? Most friends will never tell you something tastes bad, even if .it does. My wife, on the other hand, is brutally honest with me. When she says something is good, I know she really thinks that. 


Absolutely Bill.  That's a definate possibility,  though the comments seemed sincere at the time.  I guess the take home point is that the comment of  a guest is not a metric to put any faith in when it comes to judging one's own pizza.

I also put a lot of faith in my wifes criticism.  She's Japanese.  She knows well prepared food, and is not afraid to rip apart my weaker efforts. :-D

AZ


cornicione54

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2010, 02:19:03 AM »
Quote
Notice that though the crumb is airy, but it is dry looking.

Chau, I'm slightly confused. Could you clarify what you mean by a "dry looking" crumb and how you think "overfermentation" is responsible for lack of moisture? Are you suggesting that greater gluten breakdown from over-fermentation resulted in more moisture loss during baking?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 02:20:34 AM by cornicione54 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2010, 02:56:37 AM »
Chau, I'm slightly confused. Could you clarify what you mean by a "dry looking" crumb and how you think "overfermentation" is responsible for lack of moisture? Are you suggesting that greater gluten breakdown from over-fermentation resulted in more moisture loss during baking?


I think when you have overfermentation you have a couple of things going on.  There are enzymes breaking down the gluten matrix releasing water and actually making the dough feel softer and a bit more wet.  The dough will be harder to handle and feel more slack.  But the resulting crumb structure is anything but moist.

I'm not sure if during the bake the excess moisture is released because it's now free, but the crumb is definitely more dry to the touch and taste.   Part of the toughness of the dough is also due to the excess acids produced during overfermentation.  This has a strengthening effect on the gluten strands.  Again this isn't due to overkneading and/or a low hydration which are 2 other sources for tough dry crumbs.

As a result, an overfermented dough has less oven spring and a slightly tougher crumb.  The greater the fermentation, the tougher and drier the crumb will be.  I know you can't taste the crumb through the computer but if you study the crumb structures carefully it is quite evident what I am referring to.   This was one of the first same day doughs that this has happened to me.   This was purely caused by several reasons.  One being that I proofed the dough at higher than normal/room temps in the microwave b/c I was impatient and wanting to bake before it got too late.   Obviously when you proof at higher temps, the window of screwing things up becomes smaller.  I let it stay in too long.  The other reason is that I had about 5 hours from start to finish so I added too many sources of yeast to this dough. 

Here are some better crumb shots of similar pies.  These were just as airy but also moist and tender and no hint of dryness.  These are taken from various pies and different sections of the crust.  Some of these are actually from the same pies despite looking different.   I want to clarify that these are not tartine pizzas.  For the most part, they are just some crumb shots from same day pies. 

Sorry about hijacking the thread, just wanted to clarify with some pics.

Chau
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 03:06:51 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2010, 03:01:01 AM »
I'll see if I can find a few more of my preferred type of crumb. 


cornicione54

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2010, 03:08:04 AM »
Thanks for the clarification Chau. I know it's hard to convey texture through pictures but I think I have a better understanding of what you were saying. Regarding the theory behind the "dry crumb", I have a feeling it may have less to do with gluten and more to do with the ratio of wheat starches  amylopectin and amylose present in the dough after extended fermentation.....but it's just a theory at the moment (I'm still trying to figure it out!).

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2010, 03:17:52 AM »
Cornicione, I'm still trying to figure it out myself.  This is the best I can do with the limited knowledge and understanding I have.  I'm aware I could be completely wrong here. 

Chau

PaulsPizza

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2010, 04:33:01 AM »
Chau, those pizzas look very tasty! Do you use the same sauce recipe with all your pies?
Glad the salt I sent you added a nice taste to the pie :-)

Enjoy the cruise buddy.

Paul

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2010, 08:08:30 AM »
Thanks Paul.  I like to mix things up when it comes to saucing a NP style pie.  I use either a classic minimally dressed NP sauce, a spiced up slightly cooked NY style sauce, or a fresh sauce if I can get home grown tomatoes.  It doesn't bother me to intermix the styles a bit.

My wife likes more cheese and the NY style sauce, so even when I make NP dough, I'll make Neo-NY pie for her.

Chau

Offline ponzu

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2010, 01:30:11 PM »
I think the first pic in post 43 shows nearly perfect crumb structure and fermentation.  I think that perfectly fermented dough has lots of small bubbles with very thin walls.  Over fermented dough on the other hand will still have lots of gas.... It will just be trapped in thicker walled larger bubbles formed by the degregation of all the previously formed thin walled bubbles.

I thnk this is part of the reason that  dough has a tough crumb as described by JT.

Offline ERASMO

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2011, 09:06:28 AM »
Okay so I was messing around and wanted to try and make a Tartine look alike bread using IDY instead of starter/levain just to see what would happen.

I made a an 83% hydrated HG dough with 0.3% IDY.   I mixed the IDY, flour, and water by hand following the Tartine method.  AL for 45m, then salt was squeeze in per tartine method.  I rested the dough 30m and then did the first series of turns.  Instead of 3 folds, I did closer to 10-12 and balled the dough up.  Then it went to sleep for 36hours in fridge.  There was some rise to the dough but not a lot.  When I pulled the dough out, it took me back to my first ever perfect pie.  The dough looked and felt just the same.   Soft, slack, but with strong gluten development.  So I ditched the bread experiment and divided the dough to make 2 pies to see what I would get.  After warm proofing, the dough felt really nice for pizza dough.  These were only 190gm a piece.  I was at the very end of my propane tank so the first pie was good but 2nd with a new tank was better as I could get the heat a bit higher.  The 2nd had HUGE spring and voids.  Crust and crumb was excellent.  Nice moist crumb and slightly soft crust despite it's dark look.  I'll decrease the hydration next time for a pizza dough and also revisit using this technique with caputo.  

AND I'm taking back all the negative things I've said about cold ferments.  I just didn't have the knowledge and skill at the time.  I've been making good bread and pizza with cold fermented doughs lately.  Hope it continues.  I'm still learning.... 8)

Here's the pizza.  Enjoy.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 10:34:58 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2011, 09:15:42 AM »
Very nice pies. Chau.

I've been giving a lot of thought to this topic lately, even after the mediocre results described in the first post of this thread. I had just embarked on the Tartine voyage. Many, many batches of Tartine dough later, I think I am ready to give it another try. As a result of all I've learned, my approach will be somewhat different than the before. Plan is to build the dough on Sunday to bake on Monday. Caputo, many folds, Tuscan starter, room temp and then overnight in fridge. There is a pretty big difference in the amount of starter in the Tartine dough and in my regular pizza dough. Maybe I'll split the difference.

Stay tuned.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2011, 09:22:48 AM »
Thank you Bill and best of luck.  Looking forward to your results.  I think you would have enjoyed these pies, but maybe I can make it even better with caputo flour, so I'm going to try.  I'm making a caputo batch this morning with a similar workflow.  Will bake it in 2 days or whenever it's ready.  If I can only get the crust worked out, I'll be sending you an invitation soon.

Chau

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2011, 03:56:25 PM »
That pie looks amazing Chau!!!  Much like the one I indulged on late this morning at Pizzaiolo Bavaro :D

Mark

Offline ponzu

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2011, 05:47:10 PM »
Chau.

Those pies are beautiful.  Particularly the second one. 

Although the crumb is just another ho hum JT perfect crumb, the overall appearance of the pie is completely original and unlike anything I've seen before.  That is

the opposite of reverse engineering.  That is spontaneous genius inspiration.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2011, 05:58:10 PM »
Thanks, you guys are always too kind.   What a nice thing to say Alexi.  I was happy to sort of stumble across this as lately I've been trying a bunch of other stuff that has not been stellar.  I really need to get this dough process down to have Bill over soon to verify that I'm not really that crazy.   :-D  Chasing this magical crust has been hit and miss.  

Kidding aside, I just mixed up 2 tester batches of 70/30 00/hg today using a very similar process.  For the first batch, the salt was added a la tartine method.  The 2nd one, the salt was dissolved in the water along with the IDY, and the dough is feeling nice already.   I need to work out the few small details like how much hand kneading vs when to ball the dough (before or after a certain number of hours cold fermented), but so far I'm keeping my excitement at bay.  Hoping to have another great bake in a few days.  

Chau

Okay a few pics of the 70% caputo hand made dough.   Bill I forgot to say that this is 69% HR with 30% HG BF.  If you are doing a 100% caputo, I would not go beyond 70% hydration but I'm sure you will find your balance.  
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 11:46:30 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2011, 09:09:57 AM »
Pizza from the dough (70/30 00/HG) pictured above in reply #55 can be seen here at replies #68 & #69.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13036.msg131769.html#msg131769

These pies were really good texturally and did resemble their HG counterparts in reply #50 above.

I decided to not post them here b/c at this point they have too many deviations to be considered Tartine pizza.   I did borrow a few techniques from the Tartine bread method, but that is their only Tartine trait.  
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 09:11:28 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2011, 08:20:18 PM »
Here is a video showing how I made pizzas using the Tartine method with 70% hydration, Caputo 00 flour, and the Tuscan wild starter. The best crust I have ever eaten - incredibly light and tender and delicious. I'm not going to jump to conclusions like I have in the past after just one batch, but my fork mixer may be retired soon from pizza making. Definitely going to stick with this method for a while.

Please watch in HD if you can

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SCWE9jZf2w" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SCWE9jZf2w</a>



Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2011, 09:21:10 PM »
Here is a video showing how I made pizzas using the Tartine method with 70% hydration, Caputo 00 flour, and the Tuscan wild starter. The best crust I have ever eaten - incredibly light and tender and delicious. I'm not going to jump to conclusions like I have in the past after just one batch, but my fork mixer may be retired soon from pizza making. Definitely going to stick with this method for a while.

Please watch in HD if you can

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SCWE9jZf2w




I love your videos Bill!  Nice job on the pizza.  It looks delicious!  I have to agree with you.  The last 2-3 round of pies I have made have been hand made using a modified tartine (stretch and fold) method with great results.  Very light crust and tender.  I too am afraid I may retire my bosch for mixing pizza dough.   Although I have also made very light crusts with mixing it by bosch as well, so too earlier to tell which method is easier and less work.  

Tonight's hand made pies.  Both 24 hour pies.  I made one with IDY and one with Starter.  60/40 00/hg blend.  Can members spot which is which?  


« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 10:48:27 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2011, 09:22:50 PM »
Here is a video showing how I made pizzas using the Tartine method with 70% hydration, Caputo 00 flour, and the Tuscan wild starter. The best crust I have ever eaten - incredibly light and tender and delicious. I'm not going to jump to conclusions like I have in the past after just one batch, but my fork mixer may be retired soon from pizza making. Definitely going to stick with this method for a while.

Please watch in HD if you can

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SCWE9jZf2w



I love the "special effects", Bill. Great job on the pizza and the video production.
Fuggheddabowdit!

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