Author Topic: Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)  (Read 1304 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2010, 09:00:55 AM »
Chau,

It’s an honor that you dedicated your loaf of bread to John and me!  ;D I wish I could have been there to taste your Rustic bread.  The crumb looks fabulous.  There is a saying that goes something like this..”There is More to Breaking Bread Than Sharing a Meal”, which loosely translated means, breaking bread is about friendship, which this forum has.  I am glad you were able to make this beautiful Rustic bread since you received the Tartine Bread book.  :chef:  I knew you could do it, with all of your talents.  I have never heard the “song of bread”, but find it very interesting.

The Ischia starter is very good in my opinion.  It now shows it lends itself to bread well, too.  It is interesting you knew how to adjust the proofing time for the Rustic bread, since you used the Ischia starter.  You talents always amaze me.    :)

You had me laughing when you said you ate Nutella on your bread.  :-D That stuff sure is good.  Looking forward to when you try more recipes from the Tartine Bread book.

Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2010, 12:17:15 PM »
Chau,

Excellent work!

I hope you do understand now why some of us love this book. Wait until you try some of the other recipe that are in there.  ;)

Regarding the starter, I used a 1/3 of a cup of the SF sourdough but activated it with 1/3 of a cup each of 50/50 mix of KAWW and BF. You can try that next time if your starter was too active. The trick is, imho, to get the timing right...knowing when your leaven is ready to go to work.

It can only get better from here...
Mike

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2010, 02:36:57 PM »
Thanks Norma and Mike.   I really appreciate the compliments.   

Norma, I based the proofing time based on what the dough was looking like at the time and having just learned that a mature starter (which is what I used) favors more acetic acid production over a young leaven which favors more mild lactic acid production which gives a less sour taste to the bread. 

Chad says that the role of a starter is to add strength and acidity and the role of a leaven is to add more strength relative to the acidity.  Since it appeared that my loaf was doubling sooner than expected, I was worried that I would get too much sourness in the loaf if I let it go longer.   

Chad only gives a time frame for proofing here (3-4 hours at room temps) and doesn't actually say that the loaf should double or triple so I took my chances and gambled in favor of an underproofed dough rather than an overproof dough as I had with my prior loaf.  Anyways, it worked out well and the flavor of the loaf was actually good.   In hindsight I could have let it go another hour (3 hours proof instead of 2) and it would have been ok.   
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 03:06:38 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2010, 03:03:06 PM »
Chau,

Excellent work!

I hope you do understand now why some of us love this book. Wait until you try some of the other recipe that are in there.  ;)

Regarding the starter, I used a 1/3 of a cup of the SF sourdough but activated it with 1/3 of a cup each of 50/50 mix of KAWW and BF. You can try that next time if your starter was too active. The trick is, imho, to get the timing right...knowing when your leaven is ready to go to work.

It can only get better from here...

Yes Mike, I have to say that I'm definitely on the bandwagon.  I can not say enough good things about this book so far.  I thought the Hammelman book is good, but this book takes bread baking to the next level.   I'm looking foward to trying the croissants and baguettes as both have always been an ulitmate goal for me.  With the book and a little experimenting, I'm fully confident I'll get there. 

Thanks for the tip on the starter, I'll keep that in mind.   My starter was actually not too active despite what I had thought.   Initially, it actually wasn't bubbly compared to when I normally use it for pizza, but it was getting late and I wanted to make a loaf.  I did the water test, and it floated so I went ahead and used it then.  In hindsight, had I proofed the bread another hour I think it the flavors would have been even better without detriment to the crumb.   The cool thing though, is that Chad gives the reader freedom to experiment and vary the process a bit to find your ultimate loaf.   

I'm really digging the option to use an active starter instead of making a young leaven and waiting the 12 hours (as John mentioned earlier).   As long as someone has an active starter on hand, you can make a great looking and tasting bread in a matter of 7-8 hours. 

What I really appreciate about Chad is that he says that making a natural leaven bread is really forgiving and versatile.   We can lengthen the bulk/proof time to 2 days if needed.  We can vary the water temperature to manipulate length of fermentation (bulk or proof) "to achieve convenience without compromise".   We can make great bread that fits our busy schedule!

I was really happy to read this as my approach to pizza making is in line with his approach.   But it does require that one is able to recognize the signs of when a dough is ready.  This is where his book really shines b/c he gives us photos and a description of the entire process.  What the dough is suppose to look like and feel like.  How the dough should behave when it is scored, how it should spring in the oven, what the bread should smell and sound like.   

And the best part is that it is a simple and easy read.  I think most members here who have spent considerable time making pizza dough would really enjoy and benefit from this book.

I know I sound a bit enthusiastic, but I really can't wait to get home and enjoy another slice of bread.  Here's one I sliced this morning. 

Chau
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 03:11:35 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2010, 03:09:07 PM »
Quote
Chad only gives a time frame for proofing her and doesn't actually say that the loaf should double or triple so I took my chances and gambled in favor of an underproofed dough rather than an overproof dough as I had with my prior loaf.  Anyways, it worked out well and the flavor of the loaf was actually good.   In hindsight I could have let it go another hour (3 hours proof instead of 2) and it would have been ok.   

Chau,

I don't have the book with me here at work but if I remember correctly, Chad says something to the extend that the dough is ready to be used or shaped if it has risen about 20 - 30 %. But I'm not a 100% certain since, like I said, don't have the book here.

Mike

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2010, 03:16:43 PM »
You are right Mike, it's ready to be preshaped once the dough has risen about 20-30% after the initial 3 hour bulk ferment.  Then there is the bench rest and the shaping to follow.  I may have missed it, but he doesn't mention how much the dough should rise after the proofing stage, only that it will take about 3-4 hours and what flavor profile you should get with a longer proof. 

chau

Offline Essen1

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2010, 03:26:44 PM »
You are right Mike, it's ready to be preshaped once the dough has risen about 20-30% after the initial 3 hour bulk ferment.  Then there is the bench rest and the shaping to follow.  I may have missed it, but he doesn't mention how much the dough should rise after the proofing stage, only that it will take about 3-4 hours and what flavor profile you should get with a longer proof. 

chau

Chau,

I use a banetton to proof the dough.

I think the 3-4 hr rising time is more of an estimate from Chad because different ambient temps for each individual play also a role. I let them proof until they have almost risen to the top, which is about 30-40% of the original volume.
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2010, 03:31:14 PM »
Thanks Norma and Mike.   I really appreciate the compliments.   

Norma, I based the proofing time based on what the dough was looking like at the time and having just learned that a mature starter (which is what I used) favors more acetic acid production over a young leaven which favors more mild lactic acid production which gives a less sour taste to the bread. 

Chad says that the role of a starter is to add strength and acidity and the role of a leaven is to add more strength relative to the acidity.  Since it appeared that my loaf was doubling sooner than expected, I was worried that I would get too much sourness in the loaf if I let it go longer.   

Chad only gives a time frame for proofing here (3-4 hours at room temps) and doesn't actually say that the loaf should double or triple so I took my chances and gambled in favor of an underproofed dough rather than an overproof dough as I had with my prior loaf.  Anyways, it worked out well and the flavor of the loaf was actually good.   In hindsight I could have let it go another hour (3 hours proof instead of 2) and it would have been ok.   

Chau,

Thanks for explaining what you based your proofing time on.  Will look for more of the breads you bake from the Tartine Bread book.  :)

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2010, 03:42:28 PM »
Thanks Mike.  You are right about the range of time he gives b/c of varying room temps.  It would have been really nice if Chad had included a picture of what the dough looks like before and after the final proof to give the reader yet another visual benchmark. 

Throughout the book there are lots of pictures of risen doughs, just not a side by side shot of before and after for comparison sake that I saw.  Nit picking aside though, this book is an absolute MUST HAVE!   

Chau

Offline Essen1

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2010, 03:59:17 PM »
Frankly, I think it's one of the best baking books out there. At least in the artisan category.
Mike

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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2010, 07:26:30 PM »
Chau - You are the master! What a sensational loaf for your first try with this recipe. I hope I can get the same crumb with more work.

I would urge all of you doing this recipe to try it with the wild starter using 50/50 bread flour and WW as Chad outlines. It is very difficult to get the starter going, but very rewarding. The taste it lends is nothing like I have experienced before in bread.

That being said, I might give it a try with the camaldoli I just brought back to life.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2010, 02:37:21 PM »
 :-D  John you are always too generous with your compliments to me.   I'm no master, just another guy on here learning & sharing what I can.

The beauty of this substitution of starter for leaven is that I now have a method for a great 6 hour loaf of bread.   Which can also be cold fermented and then made into bread anywhere from 8 - 24 hours later.   

I have also made some great pizza using this rustic country bread recipe with ischia posted here.  Reply #13
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12122.0.html

I have in the fridge 2 pizza doughballs made with Chad's baguette recipe that I will bake up tonight & post pics later.

I ask the audience to use their imagination and follow me if you will on a little pizza journey.  If you agree with me that pizza dough and bread dough can be one in the same, then what we have here is "potentially" a great 6 hour pizza dough recipe as well as a bread recipe.  Of course this pizza dough can also be cold fermented as well if one wishes.

As you may know, I am fond of making 6-12 hour same day pizza dough.    My doughs tend to be highly hydrated and include stretch and folds to build strength just as the Tartine Method for bread.  But I have been mainly toying with commercial yeast.  I have made a few emergency doughs with starter but not too many.  Of course starter, especially a mature starter will give this dough it's "flavor".

So with just a few tweaks and using Chad's methods of hand turning the dough, it would be pretty easy for me to come up with a good same day (emergency) pizza dough recipe and method. 

Everyone follow?  I'm talking about a 6 hour pizza dough with 20% active mature starter (your choice) with good flavor ready to be baked in 6-12 hours (your choice). 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 04:21:08 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2010, 04:49:58 AM »
So I made up some pizza dough but instead of mixing it up by hand using my tried and true methods or mixing it in my Bosch mixer, I decided to use Chad's hand technique in the Tartine Bread book. 

The motivation for doing this came from his description of his dough on page 55.

"During the third hour, notice how the dough starts to get billowy, soft, and aerated with gas..."

Though I can make some very nice dough by hand or mixer, I haven't ever been able to make a dough that looks and acts like the NP dough you see in many of the youtube videos and even by some of our top members here.  The distinguishing feature about this masters dough for me is that it is billowy, soft and aerated as Chad describes.   Opens easily but also displays good strength to it.   

I can't describe it well but if you watch some youtube videos of NP dough, you'll know what I'm talking about. 

Anyways knowing this type of dough is either made by hand or with mixers that have a more gentle action than American mixers, I thought why not give Chad's technique a try on pizza dough since his dough in the book pictures looks very much like the NP master's dough.

I decided on a 50/50 blend of 00 & HG flour.  The chosen hydration ratio would be 70%.  My goal was to be able to create a dough that could rival the dough in Chad's book and that of the NP masters. 

This dough was made with 20% ischia and total fermentation time was 5 hours with the last hour of proofing done in the microwave at a warmer (~85-90F)  than room temps.   I was basically proofing 2 other cold fermented doughs and tried to get all 4 doughs to proof up at the same time so I could bake them one after the other. 

I couldn't believe how nice the dough was.   It was the nicest, smoothest dough I've made up.  It looked and opend up just like the Pro's dough seen on all those videos.   Baked up nice as well and had a bit more oven spring than I normally get.  The crust was very light. 

I attributed these qualities to the gentle hand turning techniques from Chad.  I did modified them a bit and did the turns every 20m for 2 hours instead of every 30m for 3 hours.   There is definitely something to gentle kneading to achieve this quality of dough.   

With this experiment, I was able to show myself the effect of gentle kneading on the end quality of dough and perhaps the purpose/advantage of a spiral mixer.  I will definitely try to achieve this quality of dough by using the bosch mixer, with some short periods of mixing & rest periods.

Here is a shot of the dough, pie, and crust. 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 09:27:18 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2010, 06:32:58 AM »
What a great experiment, with stunning results. You said total fermentation was 5 hours - 2 hours of turns, and then 3 hours of proofing balled? And how was the taste?

John
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 06:35:00 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2010, 08:46:11 AM »
Thx John, and yes 5 hours with the last hour warm proofed to get it to be ready with 2 other balls that had been cold fermented.   Flavor on these were good, but mild, not strong.  Not flavorless either.   

If I understand correctly, even 30m-1h extra can impact taste tremendously.  Me I worry about proper texture first, always.

Anyone can do this, just vary the hydration to your flour but still keep it high.   Also I did turns/folds at 20m for 2 hours, rested about 20m, divided and balled.  During the balling there were some additional stretch and folds as well.  Has to be done by feel, balancing out the hydration ratio here with the flour used.   Try to get your dough to look like Chads in the book.

Use the masters' dough as a goal.  Everytime I watch a video on pizza I always pay attention to the dough.  What it looks like, the color, how it behaves, how much it bulk rises, how much it flattens out after proofing versus shape/size of balls, any color change, how it opens, etc.   As an example, the Di Fara interview posted by norma recently shows you a lot about Dom's dough.

Chau
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 08:47:55 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2010, 10:28:57 AM »
What a great experiment, with stunning results. You said total fermentation was 5 hours - 2 hours of turns, and then 3 hours of proofing balled? And how was the taste?

John

That is an AWESOME looking pie!!!  I mixed a dough last night with my "pizza shop dough" starter at 5% then let the dough bulk rise overnight outside for 11 hours.  I re-balled this morning and will let rise at room temp or so until ready to bake.  I like your take on this Chau; by upping the starter and adjusting to the folding techniques an amazing looking pie can be made in about a day, elevating the "emergency dough" to heights not seen by many "regular" recipes!  I'm making baguettes tomorrow and will try this out for pizza next weekend :)

BTW, how was the taste?

Mark

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2010, 10:39:55 AM »
Thanks Mark.  The flavor was good.   I concentrate so much on texture that flavor unfortunately takes a back seat.  Someday I will get the texture down perfectly everytime and can then worry about the differents in taste using different starters at different levels of maturity.   

I'm sure those who have more experience with starters and/or cold ferments would be able to give these pies a fair evaluation on flavor.  I lack experience in that arena. 

I have experimented with same day doughs using upto 50% starter and warm proofing, baking decent pizza within 2 hours of making dough.   What I really like about this methodology is the use of gentle hand turning to develop the gluten.   With the technique I was able to produce a dough quality very similar (if not the same) to what is seen from the NP masters.   It was a enlightening experience to say the least.  I need to do much more experimentation though to see where I can go with it. 

IMO the baguette recipe does not make as good of a pie as the rustic country bread if you want to make pizza using the same bread dough.   

Good luck, and please post your results.

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2010, 09:28:25 PM »
I made up another batch of the "masters' dough" last night by hand, utilizing a slightly modified version of Chad's methods as discussed in his Tartine bread book, which along with others, I highly recommend.

I combined some of his methods and what I have learned from the book with my own methods and feel I have been able to improve my dough.   This dough is a blend of mostly 00 and a small amount of HG flour.   Bulked for 3 hours, then cold fermented for 16 hours, then room temp proofed for under 3 hours. 


The last 2 of 4 pies made (the ones with less cheese) where warmed proofed for a shorter amount of time than the first 2 pies. 

Wanted folks to see what is possible with a little imagination and some experimentation.  Thoughts and ideas much appreciated.

The first 2 were sauced and cheesed more like a NY style pie for the wife and her sister. 



« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 07:15:44 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2010, 09:34:08 PM »
these last 2 pies were from the same batch but received a slightly different proofing regimen.  At higher temps and for a shorter time.  I did this after I found out my SIL and husband would also be coming.

The first pie was topped with homemade fior di latte.   Turned out pretty good.  I have a bit of work to do to get this cheese right, but was impress for having only made it a few times.  This was the first time I baked it up.

The 2nd pie was made with buffala mozz from TJ's.  I liked this better than my cheese but my stuff was pretty good too.   

The sauce on these were from tomatoes from my yard.  I have to say that I like a fresh sauce much more than any canned sauce. 

Offline ponzu

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2010, 01:27:08 AM »
JT,

I much prefer the look of the warmer shorter proofed (second)2 pies.  Better crumb structure and the rim looks better (particularly on the Buffola pie.)  they all look great.

Am I imagining it or was there a gum layer present in some of those crumb shots?

AZ