Author Topic: Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)  (Read 1909 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« on: October 17, 2010, 12:56:02 AM »
Made my first loaf of rustic bread using ischia starter.  Used double the final flour weight in Ischia Starter.   Was shooting for a more holy crumb but this wasn't bad for a newbie effort.  Hope to get better with bread making.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 12:28:52 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline Matthew

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2010, 06:15:35 AM »
Made my first loaf of rustic bread using ischia starter.  Used double the final flour weight in Ischia Starter.   Was shooting for a more holy crumb but this wasn't bad for a newbie effort.  Hope to get better with bread making.



Chau,
Nice job.  For a nice shiny holey crumb you need to be in the 75+ hydration range.  The final shaping & proofing also plays a huge role in the crumb structure.

Matt

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2010, 08:49:54 AM »
Chau,
Nice job.  For a nice shiny holey crumb you need to be in the 75+ hydration range.  The final shaping & proofing also plays a huge role in the crumb structure.

Matt

Thanks Matt.  I took your advice on uncovering the romertopf halfway through the bake and lowered the temp a bit to get a darker more rustic look and it worked well.  Thanks for that.

The hydration I used for this is 82%.  I modified Hamelman's recipe for Pain Rustique in his bread book.  He uses an IDY poolish, 100% bread flour, and his hydration ratio is closer to 87%.   He also recommends kneading for 2 min using a spiral mixer with a 20-30m autolyse.    He also says to adjust the mixing times accordingly for other types of mixers.  :-D  IMO, 2 minutes of mixing is not sufficient for this hydration level even if using a BF.  I had even increase the mixing time to 4min b/c of the lower protein blend I was using.   

I also followed his instructions on the folding and at 20m and 50min.  I did a total of 8 folds.

Looking at the crumb in person, it was evident that the dough was underkneaded given the coloration of the crumb and the lack of big bubbles.  I felt that my hydration and the folding was adequate, however the dough was underkneaded and also underproofed.  I'm confident that these 2 changes will make a huge difference.

The company that I fed it to raved about it but my next go around should be much better.  Thanks for the feedback.

Chau
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 10:14:55 AM by Jackie Tran »

Online norma427

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2010, 10:10:10 AM »
Chau,

Your first loaf of rustic bread using the Ischia starter looks great!  ;D  What formula did you use for your bread, since you modified Hamelman's recipe for Pain Rustique?  Did you like the taste of your bread?  I am sure you will master bread just like you did on making pizza. I am finding I really like the Ischia starter and the taste that it gives to pizza crust or bread.

I am interested in your comments about feeling your dough was underkneaded and underproofed.  I will watch to see what you come up with next.  Best of luck.  :)

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2010, 02:34:49 PM »
Norma, thanks for saying the bread looks good.   I have a total of less than 10 loaves of bread under my belt.  :-D  Nothing like the # of pizzas I've made. 

Hamelman's recipe for pain rustique calls for a 12 hour poolish made with IDY.  It pretty much looks like an activated starter so I thought why not use a starter instead.   His recipe also calls for BF and 200% of the final flour weight in poolish preferment.  This bread is similar to a ciabatta with a high hydration. 

Since I was using the ischia starter which I feed with AP flour and it would be 2/3 of the flour in the final dough I had to decrease the hydration ratio and also increase the kneading time.    I decrease the hydration ratio from 87% to 82% and doubled the kneading time.  Despite doubling the kneading time and using the bosch mixer that likely mixes faster than a spiral mixer, I feel as though the dough wasn't kneaded enough.  The appearance of the crumb was almost too creamy in color and the little amount of gluten that was developed was not strong enough to support the big air bubbles from the folding of the dough.  Also allowing the dough to proof longer would give the bigger airbubbles and a more varied crumb than what  I got.  This 2 things should be easy fixes though.  Just needs a bit of tweaking.   I believe Hamelman's recommended 2 min knead time is either a misprint or misinformation.  This is now (potentially) the 2nd error I have found in the book.   :angel:

Norma the flavor of the Ischia starter is good.  The recipe I used for this bread is as follows...

•BF   170gm + 170gm = 340gm
•Water   110gm + 170gm = 280gm (82%)
•Starter   340gm
•Salt   0.45oz or 1tsp   1.7%
•IDY   1 tsp      0.8%
•Total    ~640gm

Let me know if you would like the methods as well.  I can post that if you would like to try making this bread. 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 02:39:28 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Matthew

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2010, 02:56:38 PM »
Thanks Matt.  I took your advice on uncovering the romertopf halfway through the bake and lowered the temp a bit to get a darker more rustic look and it worked well.  Thanks for that.

The hydration I used for this is 82%.  I modified Hamelman's recipe for Pain Rustique in his bread book.  He uses an IDY poolish, 100% bread flour, and his hydration ratio is closer to 87%.   He also recommends kneading for 2 min using a spiral mixer with a 20-30m autolyse.    He also says to adjust the mixing times accordingly for other types of mixers.  :-D  IMO, 2 minutes of mixing is not sufficient for this hydration level even if using a BF.  I had even increase the mixing time to 4min b/c of the lower protein blend I was using.   

I also followed his instructions on the folding and at 20m and 50min.  I did a total of 8 folds.

Looking at the crumb in person, it was evident that the dough was underkneaded given the coloration of the crumb and the lack of big bubbles.  I felt that my hydration and the folding was adequate, however the dough was underkneaded and also underproofed.  I'm confident that these 2 changes will make a huge difference.

The company that I fed it to raved about it but my next go around should be much better.  Thanks for the feedback.

Chau

Hmm...I just looked over the formula.  I don't think that it was underkneaded.  When I first started making bread I use to do no knead & it was very airy.  My intuition is that it was the flour.  The reason for the short mix time is probably attributed to the fact that more than half the final dough is the poolish along with the added autolyse in the final mix.   

Matt


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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2010, 03:52:22 PM »
Chau,

It’s interesting that you thought the dough wasn’t kneaded enough.  A two minute knead time doesn’t sound like much, but I haven’t made that many breads with different hydrations to be able to understand how bread should be made, but found when I used this regular pizza dough made with the Ischia starter and no special equipment for baking, it made me wonder just how similar making pizza and bread are.  My dough wasn’t even a high hydration dough and I got airy bubbles in the bread.  I would be interested in trying out the bread formula, if you would be willing to give me your methods.  :) I don’t have any special baking equipment, so the results would be interesting to me. 

Glad to hear you will be tweaking this bread formula.  I will be interested in the results.  I know you won’t quit until you find the results that you want.   ;D

Matt,

Your comments are interesting too.  :)  Do you think the brand of flour used in this formula  makes a big difference in how the bread will turn out in terms of airy crumb.

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2010, 03:59:39 PM »
Hmm...I just looked over the formula.  I don't think that it was underkneaded.  When I first started making bread I use to do no knead & it was very airy.  My intuition is that it was the flour.  The reason for the short mix time is probably attributed to the fact that more than half the final dough is the poolish along with the added autolyse in the final mix.   

Matt



Hmmm, Matt you could be right.  I forgot about no knead breads but I should be able to make this bread using any flour or blend of flours.  If the kneading time is appropriate than the fermentation time may need to be adjusted.  As you said and I also suspected, it could have been also a proofing issue but that part of the formula I followed his times exactly.  

Another culprit could have been my ischia starter.  I had not used it in awhile and it may not have been as active as could be or at least on par with Hamelman's IDY poolish.  Something was off. Most likely my inability to follow recipes and/or my inconsistency with the feeding of my starters.   I'll have to work on that.  :P

Thanks for the help.

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2010, 04:28:29 PM »
Chau,

It’s interesting that you thought the dough wasn’t kneaded enough.  A two minute knead time doesn’t sound like much, but I haven’t made that many breads with different hydrations to be able to understand how bread should be made, but found when I used this regular pizza dough made with the Ischia starter and no special equipment for baking, it made me wonder just how similar making pizza and bread are.  My dough wasn’t even a high hydration dough and I got airy bubbles in the bread.  I would be interested in trying out the bread formula, if you would be willing to give me your methods.  :) I don’t have any special baking equipment, so the results would be interesting to me. 

Glad to hear you will be tweaking this bread formula.  I will be interested in the results.  I know you won’t quit until you find the results that you want.   ;D

Matt,

Your comments are interesting too.  :)  Do you think the brand of flour used in this formula  makes a big difference in how the bread will turn out in terms of airy crumb.

Norma

Norma, I'm only going off of my limited experience with making pizza dough.  IMO, pizza dough is very similar to bread dough if not the same.  IMO, dough is dough, flour is flour, and kneading is kneading.   I know with pizza dough, that if I manipulate and balance hydration levels, strength of flour, kneading times, ferment times, and baking temp I can reproduce a light and airy crumb with different flours and/or a blend of flours. 

For a pizza dough using BF and an 87% hydration ratio, a 2 minute knead using anything other than a food processor to knead the dough just doesn't seem to be correct.  Even if using 75% starter.  Of course ferment times play a major role in it as well.  Longer fermenation times will definitely build strength into the dough until you reach overfermentation and then there is weakening of the dough.  I think for the time being, I will just say that it was likely my fault using a possibly underactive starter.   Again, the bread was good but didn't have the crumb structure I was shooting for.  I think I can fix that by adjusting the kneading time, ferment times or both.   You are right, I'm not much of a quitter.  :-D

Method is a slight variation listed in Hamelman's book but the proofing times are the same.

Poolish:  50/50 flour and water with 0.2% IDY or use active Starter.  If using IDY poolish allow it to ferement at 70F for 12-16 hours.  Poolish is ready when the center starts to deflate a bit and the top has lots of small bubbles on the surface.

Mix: flour, water, and poolish (or starter) to an even mixture (1-2m) and let sit for 20-30m.  Sprinkle IDY and salt over dough and mix another 2 min using a spiral mixer.  Adjust mixing time accordingly for other types of mixers.
The dough should be supple and moderately loose and desired dough temp is 76F (per Hamelman).

Bulk for 70 min adding folds at 25m and 50min.  You can do this with a dough cutter.  Just scoop up once side and fold over the top.  Repeat on all 4 sides of the dough. 

Divide dough into 1 lb pieces and place on a floured surface covered with a plastic sheet.   Proof for another 25m at a temp of 76F.

Invert the dough onto a peel with the floured side up.  Make your cuts.  Load into a preheated and presteamed oven at 460 for 35m.  Opening the oven halfway through helps vent the oven so the bread can bake without steam.  You can do this by placing a fork or spoon wedged in the door while the bread is baking.

Hope that helps,
Chau


Offline Matthew

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2010, 04:51:28 PM »

Matt,

Your comments are interesting too.  :)  Do you think the brand of flour used in this formula  makes a big difference in how the bread will turn out in terms of airy crumb.

Norma

I'm not sure, just speculating. 

Matt

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2010, 05:00:35 PM »
From my limited knowledge working with the Tartine recipes, which use "turns" by hand instead of kneading, I would say that the ferment times need to be significantly expanded to get the crumb structure you are seeking. The Tartine sourdough which is leavened by starter as well uses nearly 10 hours worth of rest/ferment if you are using the "fast" method (the longer one involves an additional 8-12 hours of cold ferment). The enriched bread recipe, which is actually closer to what you have here Chau combining natural starter and commercial yeast, uses at least 8 hours. I would venture to say that if you mixed by hand the initial stage, did a bulk ferment for 2-3 hours (using the folds you mention every 30-40 minutes), and a final rise for 2 you may get the results you are striving for. None of the recipes in the Tartine book use a mixer.

Again, I have limited knowledge here and I am only going on what has worked for me using a finite resource. But quite frankly the crumb you have pictured is beautiful, IMHO.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2010, 05:29:44 PM »
From my limited knowledge working with the Tartine recipes, which use "turns" by hand instead of kneading, I would say that the ferment times need to be significantly expanded to get the crumb structure you are seeking. The Tartine sourdough which is leavened by starter as well uses nearly 10 hours worth of rest/ferment if you are using the "fast" method (the longer one involves an additional 8-12 hours of cold ferment). The enriched bread recipe, which is actually closer to what you have here Chau combining natural starter and commercial yeast, uses at least 8 hours. I would venture to say that if you mixed by hand the initial stage, did a bulk ferment for 2-3 hours (using the folds you mention every 30-40 minutes), and a final rise for 2 you may get the results you are striving for. None of the recipes in the Tartine book use a mixer.

Again, I have limited knowledge here and I am only going on what has worked for me using a finite resource. But quite frankly the crumb you have pictured is beautiful, IMHO.

John

Thank you John for the insight into the Tartine method.  I am trying to make a few recipes from the Hamelman book I just got not long ago to justify buying the Tartine book.  :-D I didn't want to be overwhelmed with too much info from both books at one time.  I've pretty much read the Hamelman book, it's a short read.   2/3 rds of the book is comprised of varying recipes and instructions. 

Thanks for the comment on the crumb.  It was good.  I was just shooting for a different look and trying to expand my limited knowledge about bread as well.    I want to be able to learn how to make a variety of crumb structures and learn how to further manipulate bread components.   What you and Matt says definitely makes sense.  To my understanding, a well developed gluten matrix along with stretch and folds & adequate to prolonged fermentation are the factors responsible for the big airy holes we see in ciabatta bread and gluten comes from either kneading, fermentation, or a combination of both.   We can exchange one for the other and we can also manipulate how fast that gluten matrix is achieved by varying the hydration levels, the strength of flour used, and amount and type of kneading done. 

I just re-read the side note in his book and he says the dough is similar to a ciabatta dough and that the cell structure of the bread is open and airy in a different sentence.  There is no picture of the crumb to compare and he never says it is suppose to look like a ciabatta bread crumb.  I guess I mis-read this.  For all I know, it could be that I got the correct crumb.  I guess I had a crumb similar to a ciabatta bread in my mind. 

Anyways, I think I know which variables to manipulate to get the crumb I want.

Chau
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 10:55:30 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2010, 05:32:57 PM »
I look forward to reading/seeing your excellent results as always.

John

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2010, 11:28:33 PM »
Chau,

Thanks for explaining what methods you used and the dough formula.  I will try this in the next few weeks to see what kind of bread I can make with the Ischia starter.   ::)

I will second what John said, in that I am also looking forward to your results.  ;D

Thanks,

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2010, 06:54:31 PM »
2nd attempt at making a rustic bread with an open crumb.   

Used a different recipe this time.  Increased the kneading to about 12m and fermented longer.   

Got a pretty decent sourdough loaf but didn't get the big open airy crumb i was hoping for.   ???

Well, I pulled the trigger on the Tartine bread book a couple days ago, so i will wait for it to come in.  I bet the answers I seek are in there.

Chau

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2010, 10:33:16 PM »
Chau,

That is a beautiful rustic bread with a great crumb.  ;D  Your bread making skills are really improving.

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2010, 02:12:25 AM »
Chau,

That is a beautiful rustic bread with a great crumb.  ;D  Your bread making skills are really improving.

Norma

Thanks Norma.  You always motivate me to move forward.  Thanks for that.

Chau


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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2010, 08:08:16 AM »
Thanks Norma.  You always motivate me to move forward.  Thanks for that.

Chau

Chau,

You have moved forward so fast in your pizza making and bread making.   ;D  I always look forward to what you are trying next. 

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2010, 06:01:59 AM »
John and Norma, I am dedicating this loaf to you two for having a little faith in me.  ;D

My 3rd go at Rustic bread.   First 2 attempts were mediocre IMO, so I went to the pros for help.  Just got the Tartine Bread book in last night and had to try a recipe right away.

The book calls for making a 12h room temp leaven.  Not wanting to wait 12 hours, I decided to subsitute it with my active ischia starter, which I have always figured it would be the same or similar.   In his book, Chad explains that it is NOT and he also explains why it's not the same.   Well heck....upon reading this the dough was already made, bulk risen, preshapened, shapened, and now proofing.   

After proofing for just 1 hour, I had a feeling that the dough was rising faster than it should be even at a lower temp than Chad recommends proofing the dough at.  Upon further reading and finally understanding the differences between a young leaven and an mature starter, I instantly knew I had to adjust my proofing time, so I made the decision to baked the bread much sooner than the proofing time Chad had given for the leavened bread.

Chad's book is AWESOME.  It provided the answers I was missing.  He explains the key parts throughout the entire process of bread making.  Basically I now have an idea why I didn't get the result I wanted in the first 2 attempts.

So this is a modified version of the Tartine country bread.  It's made with 20% ischia.  The bread looks absolutely stunning.  Smells pretty good and I heard the song of bread as described in the book.  The crackling of the crust as it contracts upon cooling. 

I will cut into this loaf in several hours and I hope the crumb is as nice looking as the crust. 

Pic 1 - is the release of steam from the romertopf
Pic 2 - the risened bread
Pic 3 and so on - finished loaf

« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 03:28:00 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2010, 06:20:28 AM »
Well it's been less than a couple of hours.  I picked up the loaf and it felt cool enough to cut into.  I'm speechless right now, mainly b/c my mouth is full of fresh bread slathered with nutella. 
 :-D

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2010, 09:00:55 AM »
Chau,

It’s an honor that you dedicated your loaf of bread to John and me!  ;D I wish I could have been there to taste your Rustic bread.  The crumb looks fabulous.  There is a saying that goes something like this..”There is More to Breaking Bread Than Sharing a Meal”, which loosely translated means, breaking bread is about friendship, which this forum has.  I am glad you were able to make this beautiful Rustic bread since you received the Tartine Bread book.  :chef:  I knew you could do it, with all of your talents.  I have never heard the “song of bread”, but find it very interesting.

The Ischia starter is very good in my opinion.  It now shows it lends itself to bread well, too.  It is interesting you knew how to adjust the proofing time for the Rustic bread, since you used the Ischia starter.  You talents always amaze me.    :)

You had me laughing when you said you ate Nutella on your bread.  :-D That stuff sure is good.  Looking forward to when you try more recipes from the Tartine Bread book.

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2010, 12:17:15 PM »
Chau,

Excellent work!

I hope you do understand now why some of us love this book. Wait until you try some of the other recipe that are in there.  ;)

Regarding the starter, I used a 1/3 of a cup of the SF sourdough but activated it with 1/3 of a cup each of 50/50 mix of KAWW and BF. You can try that next time if your starter was too active. The trick is, imho, to get the timing right...knowing when your leaven is ready to go to work.

It can only get better from here...
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2010, 02:36:57 PM »
Thanks Norma and Mike.   I really appreciate the compliments.   

Norma, I based the proofing time based on what the dough was looking like at the time and having just learned that a mature starter (which is what I used) favors more acetic acid production over a young leaven which favors more mild lactic acid production which gives a less sour taste to the bread. 

Chad says that the role of a starter is to add strength and acidity and the role of a leaven is to add more strength relative to the acidity.  Since it appeared that my loaf was doubling sooner than expected, I was worried that I would get too much sourness in the loaf if I let it go longer.   

Chad only gives a time frame for proofing here (3-4 hours at room temps) and doesn't actually say that the loaf should double or triple so I took my chances and gambled in favor of an underproofed dough rather than an overproof dough as I had with my prior loaf.  Anyways, it worked out well and the flavor of the loaf was actually good.   In hindsight I could have let it go another hour (3 hours proof instead of 2) and it would have been ok.   
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 03:06:38 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2010, 03:03:06 PM »
Chau,

Excellent work!

I hope you do understand now why some of us love this book. Wait until you try some of the other recipe that are in there.  ;)

Regarding the starter, I used a 1/3 of a cup of the SF sourdough but activated it with 1/3 of a cup each of 50/50 mix of KAWW and BF. You can try that next time if your starter was too active. The trick is, imho, to get the timing right...knowing when your leaven is ready to go to work.

It can only get better from here...

Yes Mike, I have to say that I'm definitely on the bandwagon.  I can not say enough good things about this book so far.  I thought the Hammelman book is good, but this book takes bread baking to the next level.   I'm looking foward to trying the croissants and baguettes as both have always been an ulitmate goal for me.  With the book and a little experimenting, I'm fully confident I'll get there. 

Thanks for the tip on the starter, I'll keep that in mind.   My starter was actually not too active despite what I had thought.   Initially, it actually wasn't bubbly compared to when I normally use it for pizza, but it was getting late and I wanted to make a loaf.  I did the water test, and it floated so I went ahead and used it then.  In hindsight, had I proofed the bread another hour I think it the flavors would have been even better without detriment to the crumb.   The cool thing though, is that Chad gives the reader freedom to experiment and vary the process a bit to find your ultimate loaf.   

I'm really digging the option to use an active starter instead of making a young leaven and waiting the 12 hours (as John mentioned earlier).   As long as someone has an active starter on hand, you can make a great looking and tasting bread in a matter of 7-8 hours. 

What I really appreciate about Chad is that he says that making a natural leaven bread is really forgiving and versatile.   We can lengthen the bulk/proof time to 2 days if needed.  We can vary the water temperature to manipulate length of fermentation (bulk or proof) "to achieve convenience without compromise".   We can make great bread that fits our busy schedule!

I was really happy to read this as my approach to pizza making is in line with his approach.   But it does require that one is able to recognize the signs of when a dough is ready.  This is where his book really shines b/c he gives us photos and a description of the entire process.  What the dough is suppose to look like and feel like.  How the dough should behave when it is scored, how it should spring in the oven, what the bread should smell and sound like.   

And the best part is that it is a simple and easy read.  I think most members here who have spent considerable time making pizza dough would really enjoy and benefit from this book.

I know I sound a bit enthusiastic, but I really can't wait to get home and enjoy another slice of bread.  Here's one I sliced this morning. 

Chau
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 03:11:35 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Bread with Ischia Starter (Split)
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2010, 03:09:07 PM »
Quote
Chad only gives a time frame for proofing her and doesn't actually say that the loaf should double or triple so I took my chances and gambled in favor of an underproofed dough rather than an overproof dough as I had with my prior loaf.  Anyways, it worked out well and the flavor of the loaf was actually good.   In hindsight I could have let it go another hour (3 hours proof instead of 2) and it would have been ok.   

Chau,

I don't have the book with me here at work but if I remember correctly, Chad says something to the extend that the dough is ready to be used or shaped if it has risen about 20 - 30 %. But I'm not a 100% certain since, like I said, don't have the book here.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein