Author Topic: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough  (Read 33437 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2010, 07:38:36 PM »
Are you ever thinking about using milk kefir in a dough to see how it works?

Norma,

To me, natural leavening agents like kefir are like having a pet that has to be cared for. I have never had good luck with pets. I once had a dog that ran away from home. He didn't even leave a note, not even a pawprint version. I heard later through the grapevine that he was found but asked to be placed in a foster home. Since then, I have been wary of anything that is like a pet and requires attention.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2010, 07:53:10 PM »
Norma,

To me, natural leavening agents like kefir are like having a pet that has to be cared for. I have never had good luck with pets. I once had a dog that ran away from home. He didn't even leave a note, not even a pawprint version. I heard later through the grapevine that he was found but asked to be placed in a foster home. Since then, I have been wary of anything that is like a pet and requires attention.

Peter

Peter,

LOL, your answer was funny!  I guess natural leavening agents are like having a pet.   :-D  They both need care.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2010, 06:58:11 AM »
I just wanted to note something about making milk kefir.  I think the milk kefir was ready again last evening before I was ready for sleeping.  I drained the kefir grains again and this time just fed the grains 1 ½ cup milk.  By this morning the kefir grains are fermenting again.  I will see when I return from market this evening if there is more milk kefir ready to be drained again.  There was a slightly more tart taste in the milk kefir last evening.  I drank more milk kefir and also gave some to the dogs to try.  They also like the milk kefir.   :-D  Drinking all this milk kefir seems okay.  I have placed some milk kefir in the refrigerator to see if it does get tarter in taste.  I believe the refrigeration will slow down the fermentation of the milk kefir.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2010, 09:04:45 PM »
The first experimental pizza was made today with the milk kefir.  The pizza did turn out well.  There was no sour taste in the crust and this pizza almost tasted exactly like the other Ischia starters doughs I made before.  The only difference I could tell about this pizza was the rim even tasted moister. I don’t think if I was blind folded and tasted some of Ischia starter pizzas I made before and this pizza made today with the milk kefir, that I could detect any difference.  The bottom of the crust was also crisp.  I don’t know what anyone else thinks, but I think this pizza looks like the Ischia starter pizzas I made, except the crust didn’t get as brown. 

The pH of this dough right before the bake was 4.71.  This milk kefir dough was very soft and the dough was easy to open.  The milk kefir dough warmed-up for about an hour and a half.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2010, 09:06:33 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2010, 09:08:21 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2010, 09:10:03 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2010, 09:14:17 PM »
Some nice looking pies Norma, really nice!

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2010, 09:20:03 PM »
Some nice looking pies Norma, really nice!

StrayBullet,

Thanks for saying this pie was nice looking.   :)  It was really good.  I don't know if you have ever tried milk kefir, but it did leaven the dough.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2010, 10:01:20 PM »
Norma,

I agree with your assessment of the pizza with the milk kefir. I looked at the last several posts and, if I got the chronology correct, it looks like 1) you made the milk kefir on Saturday, Oct. 23, and left it at room temperature until Sunday morning, Oct. 25, and 2) you made the Lehmann milk kefir dough on Sunday morning (Oct. 25) and left it at room temperature until today, Tuesday, Oct. 26, when you made the pizza. It's possible that the combination of the amount of milk kefir you used (41 grams) and the long room temperature fermentation of the dough may have used up too many of the natural sugars, leaving too little residual sugar to give a darker crust. Normally, the lactose (milk sugar) in milk, which is not a sugar form used as food by the yeast, is available to provide crust coloration. However, I read that the beneficial yeast and friendly bacteria in milk kefir consume most of the lactose. If you decide to stick with the dough formulation you used, you may have to change the fermentation protocol in order to get more crust coloration. However, it looks like the basic Lehmann dough formulation is workable and that the fermentation protocol you used fits within the timeframe you have been using at market.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2010, 10:34:00 PM »
Peter,

The chronological order that I used for this pizza was: Mixed kefir grains with raw milk, Saturday afternoon, left the grains and raw milk ferment, until near 11:30 pm Sunday evening.  Made dough with milk kefir around 12:30 am Monday morning, left dough room temperature ferment until late afternoon Monday (this was about 14 hours room temperature ferment), then placed the milk kefir dough ball into the refrigerator late Monday afternoon.  It was then cold fermented until about 3:00 pm today. when I baked the pizza.  I can understand that the high amount of milk kefir I used in combination with long room temperature ferment could have used up to many of the natural sugars, resulting in a lighter crust.  I was surprised that this dough formula with the milk kefir even worked out as good as it did the first time. 

I will try you poolish milk kefir formula either tomorrow or Thursday.  I will then try the three-stage fermentation of that dough.  I still have to understand how this milk kefir works in a dough.  Do you have any other ideas when I try your formula out, since you have seen this experiment?  I will need to probably then bake the pie in my home oven.

The milk kefir needs the grains drained out again tonight and refed.  I  fed them a smaller quantity of milk the last night, but it seems the kefir grains are making the milk kefir faster. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2010, 10:49:24 PM »
Do you have any other ideas when I try your formula out, since you have seen this experiment?  I will need to probably then bake the pie in my home oven.

Norma,

I think the best experiment would be to make the Lehmann poolish milk kefir dough to be baked at market, in order to have a better comparison with your first milk kefir effort and also a typical Ischia Lehmann dough/pizza. Whether you do this before or after a home version is up to you. The home version might have value to those who do not have an oven such as you use at market.

Peter

Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2010, 10:06:22 AM »
Norma.

I looked at some 'off the shelf' kefir products and was left wondering if they would contain the same leavening qualities.

Forgive for me not reading all of your detailed posts on the subject yet, I will when the boss takes her mid-day nap.

Questions:

Do you remove the grains before you use the Kefir milk?

Would you describe it as a milk like consistency or thicker?

I will try and make a 'poolish' if I can call it that with store bought Kefir and KAAP to see if there is any action. 

Thank you Norma and Peter for the time and energy you put into Pizza! 

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2010, 10:50:20 AM »
Mick.Chicago,

I am not sure if an “off the shelf” kefir product can be used to leaven the dough.  From what I have read so far you need the kefir grains to be able to make milk kefir for a dough to be leavened with.  I read they make commerical kefir a different way.

After you feed the kefir grains and the mixture ferments, then you are supposed to take out the kefir grains and refeed them.  This way the kefir grains just keep giving you more kefir milk.  I did leave in a few grains of kefir when I made this recent pizza.  If you look closely at the picture I posted (5345 JPG.), you can see the one kefir grain still in that crumb shot.  I took that kefir grain out and ate it plain.  It didn’t have any taste, when I removed it.

The fermented kefir is thicker than milk.  I still have to experiment with feeding schedules and seeing if the kefir milk gets more tart over time.  I just took these pictures after you posted to show how my kefir has fermented over night.  I had rinsed the grains last night and refed them more raw milk.  Now the mixture has thicker clumps and a watery substance.  I again tasted this and although there is a little tart taste, it isn’t strong.  I think understanding kefir milk is also going to be another learning process. Right now it looks like the kefir milk has separated into curds and whey. I am not sure what I am going to do with this mixture now. 
Good luck to you if you try a poolish with store bought kefir.

Take care of the "boss".  She is the most important one.   :)

Pictures of milk kefir this morning.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2010, 01:42:39 PM »
Norma,

For the record, I believe the dough formulation you used to make your first milk kefir pizza is as set forth below. I couldn't use any of the dough calculating tools because they are not set up to work with what you did, so I have just set forth the basics of what I believe you did.

Milk Kefir: 41 grams (1.45 ounces)

Final Dough
Flour: 298.43 g/10.53 oz (Note: 298.43 grams = 253.43 grams from Reply 104 + 45 grams of added flour)
Water: 146.31 g/5.16 oz/0.32 lbs
Morton's Kosher Salt: 6.03 g/0.21 oz/0.01 lbs/1.08 tsp/0.36 tbsp
Milk Kefir: 41 g/1.45 oz
Oil: 2.74 g/0.1 oz/0.01 lbs/0.61 tsp/0.2 tbsp
Totals: 494.51 g/17.44 oz
Note: Dough is for one 14" pizza

In the above analysis, I did not calculate the baker's percents. However, if one adds the 89% water that is in milk (36.49 g for the milk kefir), and if one adds the 45 grams of flour to the formula flour in the original dough formulation in Reply 104 (253.43 g), the effective hydration becomes (146.31 + 36.49)/(253.43 + 45) = 61.25%. Assuming no bowl residue losses for the dough, the corresponding thickness factor would be 0.1135. That increase is because of the 45 grams of added flour that increased the total dough batch weight.

Peter

 


Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2010, 02:47:41 PM »
Peter,

You are right for the record on what I did to make the first experimental milk kefir pizza.   If anyone wants to try this milk kefir pizza at least all what was used in now in the right place.  It is interesting to me to see what the this pizzas hydration was, since I didn’t know before.  I will also link my other post of how I went about the kefir grain milk fermentation, in case someone is interested in seeing how I made the kefir milk and then fermented the kefir milk dough.  The chronological order I used is at Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg115235.html#msg115235

This chronological order might change if someone is using different ambient room temperatures. I watched the fermenting of the newly purchased kefir grains fermented with the raw cows milk, then watched the milk fermenting with the kefir grains, to see when I thought it might be ready to be incorporated into a dough, then watched until the dough had about half doubled, then into a cold ferment for about 1 day. 

Thanks for setting forth the dough formula I used in numbers that can be understood.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2010, 09:47:27 PM »
I tried to use some of the milk kefir curds today to make mozzarella, but that didn’t turn out well.  The curds seemed to become slippery and slimy when heated in the microwave. The only thing I gained from that curd mozzarella experiment was the pH of the curds separated from the whey were 3.94. I refed the kefir grains again.

When searching today, I found this link to show how a kefir grain looked magnified.

SEM micrographs showing surface of a kefir grain. 

http://www.magma.ca/~pavel/science/Anaglyph.htm

Pictures of curds and pH of curds.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2010, 10:31:40 AM »
I think I am starting to understand a little more about how kefir grains ferment, when they are in raw milk.  The amount of raw milk used can tell how quickly the kefir grains can make kefir milk.  I took the pH of the mixture this morning and it is now 4.53.  Now the milk kefir is almost creamy like yogurt and has a pleasant taste in addition to being creamy.  I think this milk kefir is ready to make a poolish, for a dough to be tried at home, but I am not sure.

I did price the raw goats milk at market to see if I also wanted to experiment with raw goats milk in kefir grains, but the raw goats milk was twice as expensive.  I might try that in one experiment later on with a small amount of raw goats milk to see if the kefir grains do better in raw goats milk, but for the time being, I will just use raw cows milk. 

I am still drinking some kefir milk everyday, so I will see if kefir milk does have added health benefits.  So far I have noticed some differences, but since I am not positive, I will wait until I drink kefir milk for a longer period of time, to see if this is true or not.

I also wanted to note one thing about the pizza I made on Tuesday with the kefir milk.  I don't know if it can be seen in the pictures, but that pizza seemed to have three areas of crumb structure.  I am not sure if it was from using the kefir milk or not, but there were bubbles on top of bubbles in the rim.  Steve and I both commented on why the rim seemed to have three levels of bubbles, but we had no explanation for why that happened.  I forgot to mention that Tuesday evening.

Peter, this is a link that I don’t know if you read or not.
This is another pdf study of applied microbiology with milk kefir grains.  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2672.1984.tb01415.x/pdf
Kefir, the fermented milk, is said to have a complex flora consisting of yeasts and lactic acid bacteria. 
What interests me about this study is kefir differs from other fermented milk products.  It is made  by fermentation with a mixed microflora, which is confined to discrete kefir grains.  This study also suggests that at least part of the matrix of the kefir grain is composed of an insoluble carbohydrate.  This then would indicate that these organisms were responsible for synthesis of the carbohydrate.  It has been suggested that the long curved form appears to be responsible for carbohydrate production. This study also shows pictures of the ultrastructure of kefir grains.   

Another article I read at science direct tells about kefiran cryogels could be an interesting alternative for its application in food formulations.  There are many pdfs, charts and pictures on different strains of kefir grains from other countries on the web.

Pictures below of kefir grains in milk this morning.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 10:35:12 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #58 on: October 28, 2010, 10:48:11 AM »
I am still drinking some kefir milk everyday, so I will see if kefir milk does have added health benefits.  So far I have noticed some differences, but since I am not positive, I will wait until I drink kefir milk for a longer period of time, to see if this is true or not.

Norma,

I am getting a bit worried about you imbibing so much milk kefir, even with its fairly low alcohol content. I don't want to see you end up before a support group saying, "Hi, I'm Norma, and I am a Kefirholic". Or worse yet, if things deteriorate too much, standing outside of Root's Market with a sign that says "WILL WORK FOR PIZZA (NON-KEFIR PIZZA, PLEASE!!)".

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2010, 12:20:36 PM »
Norma,

I am getting a bit worried about you imbibing so much milk kefir, even with its fairly low alcohol content. I don't want to see you end up before a support group saying, "Hi, I'm Norma, and I am a Kefirholic". Or worse yet, if things deteriorate too much, standing outside of Root's Market with a sign that says "WILL WORK FOR PIZZA (NON-KEFIR PIZZA, PLEASE!!)".

Peter

Peter,

Your comments were very funny!  Sooooo farrrrr I haven’t felt effects if there is any alcoholic contents in my milk kefir.  Did I stutter?  :-D  Just kidding.  I walked the line and passed.  I read about parents giving children milk kefir to drink and I have also given to my dogs and they sure didn’t seem inebriated.  They also have been drinking it every day. 

I will see if the milk kefir does give me any additional health benefits.  It would be good to make pizza at market with milk kefir.  At least I could advertise that my dough is naturally leavened and also would have additional health benefits. 

I have already confessed to being a “Pizza Addict”, so what harm is there in also being a “Kefir Milk Addict”?   ;D  Aren’t you still convinced to try the milk kefir?  At least this pet (milk kefir), wouldn’t run away from you. 

I could relate to be inebriated with happiness if this dough with milk kefir ever works out.  Now even my mother likes the milk kefir in a smoothie.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 12:24:45 PM by norma427 »
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