Author Topic: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough  (Read 42187 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2010, 11:34:18 AM »
Norma,

Since the subject matter of using kefir to make bread and pizza dough is still fresh in my mind, I thought that I would record my thoughts.

The first thing that I noticed from my research is that just about all of the kefir bread dough and pizza dough recipes I found through Google searches, and there were quite a few of them, appear to be the creation of home bakers and cooks rather than professionals, with a strong emphasis on health and nutrition and using ingredients (e.g, specialty grains like kamut and spelt) that are typically not used to make pizza dough. It's possible that someone somewhere is using kefir in a commercial setting, particularly for bread dough, but I don't recall evidence of such use from my reading. I am not sure what to make of this. Maybe kefir does not lend itself well to commercial bread/pizza dough production, or maybe professionals are not aware of kefir and its potential for bread/pizza dough making. Or kefir may be like other natural yeast cultures. As you know, there are not many professionals using them to make pizza dough. Also, during my reading, I read many accounts of where people failed in their efforts to successfully make doughs using kefir. Apparently there are a lot of variations in the incubation of kefir, which can be as short as 10 hours and up to three days, in varying room temperature environments, and apparently there is an optimum time to use the kefir to make dough. Otherwise, the finished bread or pizza crust apparently can end up too sour.

The second thing I noticed is that using kefir to make pizza dough seems to be an afterthought and extension of using kefir to make bread dough. Apparently after succeeding using kefir to make bread dough, the thought occurred to people to use the same dough to make pizzas. In this vein, I  noticed that the same general approach is used to make pizza dough as used to make bread dough. For example, after the kefir is prepared, a sourdough starter is made and then used to make a pizza dough after achieving a particular volume expansion (such as a doubling). The sourdough starter is incorporated with other dough ingredients as part of the final mix and the resulting dough is used fairly shortly thereafter, typically after another rise in the dough, much as is done when making bread. To achieve a relatively fast rise, the amount of sourdough starter typically represents a large percent of the total formula flour, as much as 40-60% based on my calculations. I did not see any recipes that called for using relatively small amounts of sourdough starter (e.g., below 15%) as a percent of total formula flour (or total formula water or total dough weight) and then cold fermenting the final dough over a period of several days, just as you have been doing with your Lehmann preferment dough and your more recent Ischia Lehmann doughs. I saw one example of a three-step protocol where a "thin" kefir sourdough starter, much like a poolish, was prepared and then used to make a sponge, which was then combined with other ingredients as part of the final mix. I am not sure whether this three-step method was necessary or just another fortuitous creation of a home baker. 

The third thing that I noticed is that the sourdough starters can have different hydration values. Some of the sourdough starters are thin and somewhat watery, much like a poolish, and some are thicker, like a sponge or biga. These could have evolved as much by accident as by plan based on the science of kefir dough making. I also did not read anything about whether there are "break points" for kefir sourdough starters as there are with poolish and sponge to signify that the sourdough starters are ready to be used. Rather, a simple test such as a doubling seemed to be the most common test used.

At this point, I don't have a good feel as to whether using a small amount of sourdough starter and a long cold fermentation of several days will work and fit your conditions at market. In theory, it seems to me that such a protocol should be possible but never having worked with kefir I can only speculate as to how this might be done. There is a part of me that says that it might be useful to gain some experience working with kefir sourdough starters and learning how they work before taking the next step but there is another part of me that says to just go for the jugular and fashion a dough formulation that fits your three-stage protocol that has worked so well for you at market. In this context, I would tend to lean toward using preferment quantities of sourdough starter rather than solely leavening quantities (Marco's method). An example of what I have in mind is a milk kefir version of the Lehmann dough formulation that you posted at Reply 104 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg110725.html#msg110725 but using a hydration of 62% that you requested be used in the opening post in this thread. For purposes of using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I would treat the milk kefir as I would the water part of the sourdough starter. As noted at the nutritiondata.self website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/69/2, whole milk with a milkfat content of 3.25% contains about 88% water. That means that using equal weights of milk kefir and flour to make the sourdough starter will not technically be a poolish but it will be quite close. Moreover, you can always tweak the recipe to get the dough to the same condition as your present doughs. Treating the milk kefir like water for our purposes will also allow us to use the expanded dough calculating tool without having to go through all kinds of contortions to adapt it to your specific purpose.

Once you have had a chance to digest what I have presented above, please let me know how you think you would like to proceed, and when you would like to do so.

Peter


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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2010, 03:10:03 PM »
Peter,

I also noticed from my searches at Google, that I couldnít find any professionals that were using kefir in pizza or bread.  It looks to me like most of the people that are using kefir are doing it for health and nutrition.  I donít know if it because kefir is hard to work with or if professionals donít want to take the time to understand kefir more.  I saw that when people made pizzas, they didnít look like a traditional pizza.  I also saw in some recipes it said you could use strong white, unbleached flour to make a pizza.  I wondered after all this reading is kefir is really like other natural yeast cultures.  Do you think after your research that kefir is really another natural yeast culture that not many people are exploring?  After I read the link I provided about staling in bread and seeing that the researchers have learned that kefir works better in stopping staling of bread it still makes me wonder if not enough experiments have been done on kefir.  That study wasnít done too long ago. 

In my instruction booklet and from what I have read there are varying times for kefir grains to be fermented.  I tasted the kefir milk with the grains this morning and although the kefir grains and milk do look like they are fermenting, the taste still tastes like raw milk.  I couldnít notice any taste of sourness or any smell of tartness in the mixture.  Even this afternoon there isnít any smell of tartness or taste of sourness.  From what I have read, when the kefir grains and milk start to ferment too much, then whey is formed.  I have to work this evening so I guess I will just keep monitoring how the kefir tastes and smells and go by that when my kefir might be ready.  If I ever get to understand kefir, I would like to try and make some cheese out of it, but first I would like to try it in seeing if I can make pizza dough.  I think after I have watched the kefir for awhile and as my grains grow, I will understand more about kefir.  By what I understand after the kefir is going full-steam, it then isnít hard to know when the kefir is fermented enough.

I think people that have tried to make bread out of kefir have made pizza as an afterthought as you mentioned in your last post.  I have watched many videos on making kefir and saw that many of the kefir grains are very large.  My grains arenít that large and from my instruction booklet, it says that my kefir grains will grow bigger in about 2 weeks.  I donít know if then the grains will make kefir faster.  I also didnít see anyone using a smaller amount of kefir in a dough or doing a three-part fermentation.  Most of what I have read is about using kefir when it is thinner and I believe then the dough isnít as sour.  I will have to watch how kefir acts in a dough and see if it can leaven a pizza dough. 

This kefir experimenting and not knowing what to do, since it is all new to me is confusing on what to try in terms of preferment quantities.  I think your idea of going for the jugular and trying the three-stage protocol is what I want to try now.  Maybe my mixture will be ready by tomorrow or even by tonight.  That I donít know at this time.  I could let the dough out to bulk ferment to see what happens.  If the three-stage protocol doesnít work, then I could go back and do other experiments.  I donít know at this time if anything will work out for market, but I would just like to see if a successful pizza could be made out of kefir and KASL with whatever kind of formula you set forth.  For some reason, I find kefir interesting in a pizza dough, even if I am not successful. 

I will let it up to you on how you think I should proceed.  You know a lot more about dough than I do.  I will just have to watch my kefir mixture to see when I think it is ready. 
Thanks for your help,

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2010, 04:51:31 PM »
Norma,

I am not sure why kefir isn't used by professionals. I did a quick search to see if there are commercial bakeries that make and sell breads using kefir, much as there are many artisan bakeries that commercially make and sell breads from naturally leavened doughs, but I could not find any evidence of commercial bakeries using kefir. However, I plan to do more searching on this point.

On the matter of the keeping qualities of breads made using kefir, it is well known that kefir has natural yeast and bacteria that confer antibiotic-like qualities on breads, which is what allows the breads to keep longer without staling excessively. This is also true of breads made from naturally leavened doughs.

As I was conducting searches today, I came across an abstract at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6R-50F3V95-3&_user=10&_coverDate=01%2F15%2F2011&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1511608398&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ff923216b9ab8bb0318e0683f073611b&searchtype=a that discusses the abovementioned keeping qualities of kefir breads. What is more noteworthy, however, is the reference to using 10-20% kefir sourdough, by weight of flour, to make a kefir bread. If I interpreted the abstract correctly, that would suggest that using 15% kefir sourdough, as a percent of formula flour, should work for your purposes. I believe that the flour referenced in the abstract is whole wheat flour.

I also saw a reference toward the end of an article on kefir at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cookbook:Kefir that says that a kefir sourdough starter can be made by adding Ĺ teaspoonful of kefir to Ĺ cup flour and Ĺ cup water, mixing well, and setting the mixture aside to ferment for 12-24 hours. The article also notes that kefir can be used directly to leaven bread by replacing the yeast and half the water with kefir. I read elsewhere that one should not replace more than half of the formula water with kefir because that apparently makes the bread too sour. Of course, this method isn't one that would work for you purposes if you want to use the three-stage fermentation protocol you are already using.

For planning purposes, do you recall what thickness factor and bowl residue compensation you used for the dough formulation at Reply 104 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg110725.html#msg110725? Also, what kind of salt would you like to use?

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2010, 05:10:44 PM »
Peter,

I am not sure, but think that article you referenced in your last post was about the same article that I found.  There is interesting that using kefir at 15%, by the weight of the flour, might be what can be used to make a pizza dough. 

I donít remember at this moment what kind of bowl residue I used in the dough formulation you posted.  I think it was 1.5, but I would have to go over my notes.  I also donít recall what thickness factor I used right now, but think it was about .10.  Right now I donít have time to go over my notes because I have to be at work in less than an hour.  If you want to look at them when I get finished working, I will.  I would like to continue using the Mortonís Kosher salt.

I removed some kefir and tasted it again and little while ago and the taste is getting a little tart and the mixture seems to be getting a little thicker.  I really donít know, but when I get finished working, I might need to use this mixture or either strain it and then add more milk.  It is a lot warmer in our area and now the mixture seems to be taking off.  I also wanted to note that the kefir grains are already growing.

Pictures below

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2010, 07:21:31 PM »
Norma,

I couldn't reconstruct the dough formulation at Reply 104 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg110725.html#msg110725 using the numbers you gave me. So, rather than spending time to do that, it might be faster for you to tell me what thickness factor you would like to use and also the desired pizza size. The dough formulation at Reply 104 is for a 14" pizza. You already indicated that you want to increase the total formula hydration to 62% and that you would like to use Morton's Kosher salt. The dough formulation I have in mind would use a milk kefir sourdough starter in poolish form and used at 15% of the total formula flour.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2010, 10:43:45 PM »
Peter,

I would like to use a thickness factor of .10 and a pizza size of 14" for a trial dough.  I do want to increase the total formula hydration to 62% if that isnít too much trouble and I would like to use the Mortonís Kosher salt.  Your plan of a milk kefir soughdough starter in a poolish form at 15% of the total formula flours sounds good to me.  I just wonder since my kefir isnít in a poolish format now, if I should go with a lower hydration of about 60%.  Since I have returned from work, I think my mixture has turned into kefir.  It is much thicker now and has more of a tart taste.  There is some liquid and more bubbling on the bottom of the Ball glass jar.  I guess I will have to either make a dough tonight or strain the kefir grains out and feed again. 

I will take another picture of what the kefir looks like in a little while.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2010, 11:04:10 PM »
These are the pictures of the kefir since I have returned from work.  As can been seen on these pictures I think the kefir grains and milk have turned into kefir.

Pictures below

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2010, 09:07:36 AM »
I decided early this morning, instead of draining the kefir grains from the mixture and starting another batch of kefir, just to make a dough from some of the kefir.  I strained the kefir grains from the mixture in a plastic colander.  I had read conflicting reports that metal can harm the kefir, and although I do have a stainless steel sieve, I didnít want to take a chance on something harming the kefir.  The pictures below show the plastic colander I used to drain the kefir grains from the kefir.  The first picture is after some of the kefir was drained and the next picture is when most of the kefir was drained off and the kefir grains are just left in the colander.  I used the formula at Reply 104 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg110725.html#msg110725 to make this dough.  Since this kefir is thinner than a poolish, I saw when mixing the flour, salt, water and kefir mixture together that this dough was going to be much too sticky for me to work with.  I then added 30 grams of flour and continued mixing in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I added the oil last.  This mixture still was sticky as seen in the next picture.  I then decided that this dough needed more flour and added another 15 grams of flour and mixed that in by hand.  The last picture shows what the finished dough ball looked like.  This dough was left out at ambient room temperature of 70 degrees.  This morning the dough has some bubbles in the bottom of the dough, but not too many.  I want to note that I did add a few of the kefir grains to this dough.  I am not sure how kefir ferments in a dough (without any kefir grains), so I wanted to give the dough more chance to ferment, so that is why I added a few kefir grains, I also added the picture of the raw milk that I am feeding the kefir grains with.  As can be seen on this picture the milk I am feeding the kefir grains is raw milk, that the cows eat grass and hay with supplements of  blackstrap  molasses and minerals.  After I was finished making the dough I drank a glass of the kefir.  In my opinion the kefir was good with a slight tart taste.  Since I never drank kefir before, I really donít know if this is how it is supposed to taste or not.  At least from all that I read the kefir is supposed to be nutritious and healthy.  Chalk one more thing up, I didnít know about before for health.  I am going to let this dough sit out today, until I think it is ready to be cold fermented.  My roof leak at market was fixed last week, so I have to go to market today and use the premium resilient tile adhesive to try and glue the floor tiles down.  That is another sticky mess.  I noticed when I poured the kefir out of the Ball jar, just how much the kefir wants to stick to the jar.  All the utensils I used were coated with kefir.  Even after using running water to try and get the kefir out of the glass jar, the kefir still wanted to stick.  At least my dishwasher did get the utensils clean.

I did add the leftover kefir grains to 3 cups of raw milk this time to watch them ferment again.

Pictures below

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2010, 10:18:54 AM »
Norma,

I am glad that you decided to use some of the milk kefir to make a dough. As you know, milk kefir can be used directly to make dough but usually at much higher levels than you used. However, I suspect that a large quantity is usually recommended (as a substitute for up to a half of the total formula water) in order to make bread or pizza dough that can be used fairly promptly after a relatively short proof. By cutting down the amount of milk kefir in your case, I think that your dough should be able to sustain a long fermentation if the milk kefir is biologically up to the task, much as a small amount of commercial yeast would do for a commercially leavened dough under similar circumstances. Since I saw little evidence in the literature of using milk kefir to make a dough with a long fermentation period, and especially a period of cold fermentation of several days, it will be interesting to see if your milk kefir has enough oomph to be able to pull the load and what you might end up in the end with as a flavor profile if you are successful. In any event, I think it is a good experiment to get out of the way.

Out of curiosity, when you used the dough formulation at Reply 104 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg110725.html#msg110725 did you measure out equal weights of the milk kefir and flour (about 21 grams each) to make a poolish mixture or did you just arbitrarily select an amount of milk kefir to use (and weighed it) and then added flour (30 grams and 15 grams) until the final dough achieved the proper consistency and feel? I raise this question in case you achieve good results with the final formulation and want to use it again.

BTW, it might be a good idea to take pH readings of your milk kefir doughs, if only to see how they differ from the pH readings that you got for your Ischia Lehmann doughs. The absolute pH values might also be instructive.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 10:31:47 AM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2010, 11:52:13 AM »
Peter,

When I read about other people using milk kefir in bread doughs and some pizzas, I saw they used varying amounts of milk kefir and most had used higher amounts of kefir to their recipes.  This is just an experiment to see what will happen to the dough and if the kefir will have enough oomph to leaven the dough.  It might not be enough kefir, but at least I should know after this experiment.  If this current kefir is up to the task of leavening the dough, I also can understand it might need a long bulk rise at room temperature.  By looking at the dough this morning and now later on this morning, the dough is getting more small bubbles on the bottom of the dough, but there still arenít many. The dough ball has spread out and I donít know if that means the milk kefir is fermenting the dough or not. Tonight if the dough hasnít risen very much, I will still let it room ferment.  Hopefully while I am away today, it wonít start fermenting more.  The smell of the dough is about the same as when the Ischia starter is used.  It has a nice pleasant smell.  The dough is nice and soft, but I donít know if I should have added more flour or not.  I want to be able to try this kefir milk dough at market to see what happens, when it is baked into a pizza.  I have no idea is this small amount of milk kefir will add a different taste to the crust or not or even if this current dough will bake into a pizza. I also have no idea what hydration this dough is.

When I used the dough formulation at Reply 104, I didnít measure out equal amounts of the milk kefir and flour.  I just added the 41.1 grams of milk kefir, rounded off to 41 grams.  Maybe adding flour to the milk kefir will be another possibility to try if this current formula doesnít work. 

Last evening I thought about taking the pH of the milk kefir after I had mixed the dough.  By then it was too late to take that pH value.  Next time before I use the milk kefir, I will take the pH value of the milk kefir. I just took the pH of the dough and it is 5.17.  I will take the pH later on this evening.

Picture of dough with pH meter and bottom of dough.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Formula for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2010, 02:25:22 PM »
Norma,

It may be possible to come up with a modified dough formulation for your experiment but I think we should wait until we see the results.

By using almost 41 grams of the milk kefir, you may have increased the yeast count, which I think may be a plus for the experiment. It also occurred to me that if the room temperature ferment is long, it is possible that other local natural yeast and bacteria in the flour and from the air may also do their thing, as widespreadpizza (Marc) and I discovered when we were able to raise dough at room temperature without adding any yeast (commercial or in the form of a natural starter/preferment) to the dough. Depending on the duration of the room temperature ferment, you may also experience some gluten damage due to the action of enzymes, accompanied by release of water from its bond. That may not be fatal to the dough but I am sure you will be monitoring the progress of the dough to the extent your schedule allows you to do so.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2010, 03:02:32 PM »
Norma,

While awaiting the results of your first milk kefir experiment, and as promised, I used the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with a dough formulation that reflects the inputs you enumerated. Here it is:

Total Formula:
KASL Flour (100%):
Water/Milk Kefir (62%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2.2%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165.2%):

Milk Kefir Sourdough Starter:
KASL Flour:
Milk Kefir:
Total:

Final Dough:
KASL Flour:
Water:
Morton's Kosher Salt:
Milk Kefir Sourdough Starter:
Olive Oil:
Total:

268.14 g  |  9.46 oz | 0.59 lbs
166.24 g  |  5.86 oz | 0.37 lbs
5.9 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
2.68 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
442.96 g | 15.62 oz | 0.98 lbs | TF = 0.1015
 
 
20.11 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs
20.11 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs
40.22 g | 1.42 oz | 0.09 lbs

 
248.03 g | 8.75 oz | 0.55 lbs
146.13 g | 5.15 oz | 0.32 lbs
5.9 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
40.22 g | 1.42 oz | 0.09 lbs
2.68 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
442.96 g | 15.62 oz | 0.98 lbs  | TF = 0.1015
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.10; target finished dough weight = 15.39 ounces/436.41 grams; the milk kefir preferment is equal to 15% of the total formula flour (or 24.2% of the total water/milk kefir or about 9% of the total dough batch weight), with a water content of 50% (poolish); bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

The above dough formulation presumes that you will make a milk kefir sourdough starter comprising equal weights of the milk kefir and flour (i.e., a poolish format) that is allowed to preferment at room temperature for a period of time before incorporating with the remaining ingredients into the final mix. For convenience, you might make more milk kefir sourdough starter than needed and measure out the desired quantity (about 40 grams) in preparation of the final mix. I don't have any idea as to how long the preferment period will be. It may be a period of hours or it may be a day or more. Whether the milk kefir sourdough starter will reach a break point or otherwise signal its readiness (e.g., by doubling in volume) remains to be seen. I believe that pH readings may be of value to tell us what appears to be happening with the development of the dough at different stages. If all goes well with the milk kefir sourdough starter, I would anticipate that the final dough that has been inoculated with the milk kefir sourdough starter will be placed in the refrigerator/dairy case for cold fermentation over a period of a few days as per your usual procedure with the Ischia starter.

As I previously noted, in order to be able to use the preferment dough calculating tool I decided to treat the milk kefir as though it is water. I could have adjusted the total formula hydration in some fashion to compensate for the roughly 89% water in the milk used to make the milk kefir but I believe that the current hydration value (62%) adequately does this. Besides, the water content of the milk used to make the milk kefir is only 2.2 grams, which is minuscule and will be pretty much made up for by the "wetting" efects of the fat content of the milk. Of course, you should feel free to tweak the dough formulation as necessary to achieve the desired finished dough condition, and note the extent of the tweaks for future reference.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 11:55:44 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2010, 05:16:51 PM »
Peter,

It is interesting that you might think that by using 41 grams of the milk kefir, that it might have increased the yeast count.  I also wonder about the local natural yeast. I remember Marcís and your experiments with no yeast in the dough and how that dough did ferment without yeast. I have kept this dough covered with a plastic lid, but I have also opened it different times.  I also wonder when making milk kefir and just keeping a linen towel around the top of the Ball container if any local yeasts might get in and survive.  I hope there isnít gluten damage due to the long room ferment.

It made me smile, when you set-forth the new formulation for this milk kefir dough.  Whether this current dough turns out tomorrow or not, I will make another dough using your formula either Wednesday or Thursday.  The current kefir grains I am feeding are already fermenting.  I can see how people say the kefir grains can get out of control.  I even drank another glass of milk kefir before I went to market today.  I have bananas, apples, and Dinosaur Eggs (plums and apricots together) and might try making a Smoothie tonight with the kefir.  I even gave my 88 year old mother some kefir today to try. 

Thanks so much for figuring out a formula to use with this kefir milk.  I see you changed the milk kefir into a poolish format.  I will watch the milk kefir poolish to see if there is a break point.  I will take different pH readings to see if it will help us understand this milk kefir more.  What different pH readings do you think I should take?  Thanks for explaining all you did to come up with a milk kefir formula.  I see you treated the milk kefir as water.  When I try your formulation, I will note any tweaks that I might need.

I came home from market to a nice surprise.  I looked at the milk kefir dough and there were more bubbles on the bottom of the dough and a few little bubbles on top of the dough.  I took the pH of the milk kefir dough and it was 4.76.  From the little experience I have with pH numbers, I thought it is time to put this milk kefir dough into the refrigerator for a cold ferment.  I donít know if I did the right thing or not, but at least the dough looks like it has doubled.  The milk kefir dough had a long room ferment.  I donít know what you think about this current milk kefir dough, but if you have any opinions let me know.  I also talked to the market manger today and he said if I come up with good drinks either with milk kefir or water kefir, I am allowed to sell any drinks with them in.  He also never heard of kefir.  He knows I am always experimenting.

Did you find any other professionals that use milk kefir in bread?  I had searched many forums in different countries and saw different ones in Russia and other countries that talk about milk kefir, but the forum didnít mention bread made with milk kefir.  There must be some place that uses milk kefir in bread.

Pictures below of pH of milk kefir dough and underside of dough.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2010, 06:32:30 PM »
Norma,

When you used 41 grams of the milk kefir, that was double what you would have used had you followed the dough formulation set forth in Reply 104. The new dough formulation calls for about 20 grams of the milk kefir but the milk kefir sourdough starter (in poolish form) will be subjected to a period of prefermentation, just as you used with your preferment Lehmann and Ischia Lehmann doughs. It will be interesting to see how the milk kefir sourdough starter behaves during the course of its prefermentation.

With respect to the pH readings, for the time being I would like to see pH readings for the milk kefir itself, the milk kefir sourdough starter (poolish) before and after prefermentation, the initial pH reading for the final dough and the pH reading for the dough just prior to using to make a pizza. The reading you took today for your dough already looks to be on the low side (4.76), indicating significant acid production. It will be interesting to see what the dough ends up with in terms of pH when you take it out of your refrigerator/deli case to use to make a pizza. I wonder whether a low pH at that point will be a harbinger of sourness in the finished crust.

I did actually spend a fair amount of time yesterday searching for reports of commercial use of kefir to make bread and/or pizza. I could not find any evidence of such use, no matter what search strings and keywords I used. Maybe there are too many other natural leavening systems for professionals to choose from, with a lot of information on their use in baking applications, that there is little incentive to learn an entirely different way of accomplishing similar results, not to mention having to buy kefir grains and maintain them so that they perform their functions correctly and on a consistent basis. Also, it is possible that the combination of wild yeast and bacteria in nature is different than the corresponding components in kefir and maybe easier to control to achieve the desired results. In this regard, I am most interested in your reports on the nature and degree of sourness of the finished crust. I also wonder what effect the milk component of the milk kefir will have on the color and texture of the finished crust.

Whether kefir ends up being useful to make bread or pizza dough or not, it will still have value for many other applications of a beneficial nature. Maybe you will end up selling kefir smoothies with your Lehmann NY pizza slices.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2010, 07:18:10 PM »
Peter,

I never even gave that a thought that the 41 grams of milk kefir would have been double of the dough formulation I used in Reply 104.  I can now understand that dough formula used a poolish format with half flour.  I also think it will be interesting to see how the milk kefir sourdough starter behaves during the prefermentation. 

I will take the pH reading of the dough with the milk kefir tomorrow before the bake.  From now on I will also take the pH values you have posted.  I also thought the pH of this current dough had fallen really fast while I was at market.  I donít know if it was because I added a few grains of kefir to the dough or not.  That is another test that might be interesting.  I donít know if dough needs added kefir grains to ferment or not.  You peaked my curiosity when you said you wonder if the pizza will have a taste of sourness in the crust.  I just took a small piece of the dough off of the dough ball and tasted it.  Right now it tastes like the Ischia dough.  I donít know if that will change until tomorrow.  At least this dough did rise and is developing bubbles.  I wasnít sure if the milk kefir would be enough to be able to leaven this dough.  I also wonder how the milk is going to affect the coloration of the crust.  This dough is really soft, but I donít know if that is because of the milk kefir or the hydration.

I think there must be some way to control the milk kefir so it makes a decent pizza.  I guess only time and experiments will tell if this is true or not.  The way I understand milk kefir right now is the milk kefir probably is another kind of natural starter that hasnít been investigated enough for use in bread or pizza. 

I will start another dough after tomorrow.  Are you ever thinking about using milk kefir in a dough to see how it works?  With your understanding of starters and preferments, I could see you having success.

I was happy today when the market manager said I could sell any kinds of drinks I wanted with kefir.  I will also have to explore the water kefir.  Who knows what kind of pizza I will be making in time.  I have tried so many dough formulas, but for right now the preferment Lehmann dough works out well for me at market.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2010, 07:38:36 PM »
Are you ever thinking about using milk kefir in a dough to see how it works?

Norma,

To me, natural leavening agents like kefir are like having a pet that has to be cared for. I have never had good luck with pets. I once had a dog that ran away from home. He didn't even leave a note, not even a pawprint version. I heard later through the grapevine that he was found but asked to be placed in a foster home. Since then, I have been wary of anything that is like a pet and requires attention.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2010, 07:53:10 PM »
Norma,

To me, natural leavening agents like kefir are like having a pet that has to be cared for. I have never had good luck with pets. I once had a dog that ran away from home. He didn't even leave a note, not even a pawprint version. I heard later through the grapevine that he was found but asked to be placed in a foster home. Since then, I have been wary of anything that is like a pet and requires attention.

Peter

Peter,

LOL, your answer was funny!  I guess natural leavening agents are like having a pet.   :-D  They both need care.

Norma


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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2010, 06:58:11 AM »
I just wanted to note something about making milk kefir.  I think the milk kefir was ready again last evening before I was ready for sleeping.  I drained the kefir grains again and this time just fed the grains 1 Ĺ cup milk.  By this morning the kefir grains are fermenting again.  I will see when I return from market this evening if there is more milk kefir ready to be drained again.  There was a slightly more tart taste in the milk kefir last evening.  I drank more milk kefir and also gave some to the dogs to try.  They also like the milk kefir.   :-D  Drinking all this milk kefir seems okay.  I have placed some milk kefir in the refrigerator to see if it does get tarter in taste.  I believe the refrigeration will slow down the fermentation of the milk kefir.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2010, 09:04:45 PM »
The first experimental pizza was made today with the milk kefir.  The pizza did turn out well.  There was no sour taste in the crust and this pizza almost tasted exactly like the other Ischia starters doughs I made before.  The only difference I could tell about this pizza was the rim even tasted moister. I donít think if I was blind folded and tasted some of Ischia starter pizzas I made before and this pizza made today with the milk kefir, that I could detect any difference.  The bottom of the crust was also crisp.  I donít know what anyone else thinks, but I think this pizza looks like the Ischia starter pizzas I made, except the crust didnít get as brown. 

The pH of this dough right before the bake was 4.71.  This milk kefir dough was very soft and the dough was easy to open.  The milk kefir dough warmed-up for about an hour and a half.

Pictures below

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2010, 09:06:33 PM »
more pictures

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2010, 09:08:21 PM »
more pictures

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2010, 09:10:03 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2010, 09:14:17 PM »
Some nice looking pies Norma, really nice!

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2010, 09:20:03 PM »
Some nice looking pies Norma, really nice!

StrayBullet,

Thanks for saying this pie was nice looking.   :)  It was really good.  I don't know if you have ever tried milk kefir, but it did leaven the dough.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2010, 10:01:20 PM »
Norma,

I agree with your assessment of the pizza with the milk kefir. I looked at the last several posts and, if I got the chronology correct, it looks like 1) you made the milk kefir on Saturday, Oct. 23, and left it at room temperature until Sunday morning, Oct. 25, and 2) you made the Lehmann milk kefir dough on Sunday morning (Oct. 25) and left it at room temperature until today, Tuesday, Oct. 26, when you made the pizza. It's possible that the combination of the amount of milk kefir you used (41 grams) and the long room temperature fermentation of the dough may have used up too many of the natural sugars, leaving too little residual sugar to give a darker crust. Normally, the lactose (milk sugar) in milk, which is not a sugar form used as food by the yeast, is available to provide crust coloration. However, I read that the beneficial yeast and friendly bacteria in milk kefir consume most of the lactose. If you decide to stick with the dough formulation you used, you may have to change the fermentation protocol in order to get more crust coloration. However, it looks like the basic Lehmann dough formulation is workable and that the fermentation protocol you used fits within the timeframe you have been using at market.

Peter


 

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