Author Topic: Convergence  (Read 5210 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Convergence
« on: November 17, 2010, 12:55:50 AM »
Recently, I find myself making very few if any tweaks to my recipe. I seem to have converged on the following:

KAAP               100.0% (Regardless of what other flours I try, I always end up back at KAAP)
Water               62.0%
Salt                    3.0%
Ischia culture       1.7%

Dissolve the salt in the water, add everything else, mix until smooth (KA w/ hook), then another minute or two in the machine. Finish with a half dozen hand kneads on the counter after a short rest.

24 hours in bulk at 74F
6 hours in balls at 74F (to about 1.7x)

~2.5 min at 750F in the BBQ mod.

The crust is super tender and very flavorful.

Craig
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2010, 01:38:57 AM »
Stunning as always.  You do not need a wfo Craig.  :-D  Thanks for the recipe and method.  I will give this a try. 

Chau

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2010, 06:40:14 AM »
I second Chau's remarks. I love the gentle leoparding and silky crumb. Your workflow and recipe are almost exact to what I have been doing for the last month using a wild yeast culture. The only variance is that I use 5% of flour weight for the yeast, as my ambient temp is hovering around 68 degrees. And I keep the culture I caught, which is fed Caputo 00, at a very "young" stage at all times. Each day 80-90% is discarded and replenished - kept out at room temp.

100% Caputo 00
60% Water
2.8% Salt
5% Starter (wild, flour weight)

Mix in the KA until homogenized, and then another 2-3 minutes. Finish by hand for a few minutes until glossy. Bulk 24 hours and 6-8 hours balled. I also get an amazingly light and tender pie, with great flavor (not sour). Around 60 seconds at 850 degrees in the WFO.

John
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 06:43:21 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline norma427

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2010, 07:59:21 AM »
Recently, I find myself making very few if any tweaks to my recipe. I seem to have converged on the following:

KAAP               100.0% (Regardless of what other flours I try, I always end up back at KAAP)
Water               62.0%
Salt                    3.0%
Ischia culture       1.7%

Dissolve the salt in the water, add everything else, mix until smooth (KA w/ hook), then another minute or two in the machine. Finish with a half dozen hand kneads on the counter after a short rest.

24 hours in bulk at 74F
6 hours in balls at 74F (to about 1.7x)

~2.5 min at 750F in the BBQ mod.

The crust is super tender and very flavorful.

Craig

Craig,

They are very tasty looking pizzas!   ;D  Great job.  Interesting you find you like KAAP for making pizza. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2010, 09:03:29 AM »
Beautiful pies, both of you.

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2010, 09:29:18 AM »
... Bulk 24 hours and 6-8 hours balled.
John

John, is all proofing done at room temp ?

Excellent job guys.
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 09:43:27 AM »
John, is all proofing done at room temp ?

Excellent job guys.

Yes, room temp.

Craig - Is your 1.7% of flour weight or total? I am interested in trying the smaller amount and proofing at a higher temperature to try and get the results you are achieving. I also want to try a bake at 750.

John

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2010, 11:15:21 AM »
Mon Dieu!.....the only friggen' convergence that needs to be happening is for us all to converge at either Craig's and/or John's place to eat some of those gorgeous looking pies.

KILLER!

Hungry and envious --K  :) :pizza: :D
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2010, 11:26:29 AM »
John your pie looks awesome - I can see you too are constantly outdoing your last efforts!  It shows some similar characteristics to Craig's pies despite the different cooking vessels.   I can almost see the small difference a WFO would make though.   Also Craig is using AP flour which gives a slightly different look compared to caputo given the same recipe.   

Which shows IMO, that technique can trump flour BUT given the same hands a higher quality flour will produce a better pie. 

Chau
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 11:39:52 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2010, 11:34:33 AM »
Mon Dieu!.....the only friggen' convergence that needs to be happening is for us all to converge at either Craig's and/or John's place to eat some of those gorgeous looking pies.

KILLER!

Hungry and envious --K  :) :pizza: :D

Ageed, those pies are things of beauty!
I have never tried a long room temp ferment with KAAP but that is about to change.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2010, 01:02:00 PM »
It shows some similar characteristics to Craig's pies despite the different cooking vessels.
Chau

Thanks Chau. That was my intention - show the similarities in our pies using a similar workflow, even though the flour and baking temp were different. I actually did not mean to hijack this thread!

John

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2010, 01:52:40 PM »
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2010, 03:25:17 PM »
John, I didn't think you hijacked the thread and glad that you posted your pie, but then again I didn't start the thread so we'll see what Craig says.   :P

PB, you are suppose to eat the pizza not.....  >:D

Hey cool blog, thanks for adding me on the celebrity list!  woohoo!   :-D

Offline gtsum2

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2010, 09:34:28 PM »
nice pies fellas..wow..they look fantastic

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2010, 12:29:16 AM »
Stunning as always.  You do not need a wfo Craig.  :-D  Thanks for the recipe and method.  I will give this a try. 

Chau

Thanks Chau.

Interesting you say that about me not needing a WFO... I actually poured the slab for one a couple weeks ago. No promises on when I'll actually start on the oven, but I'm going to build it myself brick-by-brick.

Craig
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2010, 12:39:19 AM »
Quote from: dellavecchia
I second Chau's remarks. I love the gentle leoparding and silky crumb.

Quote from: dellavecchia
Craig - Is your 1.7% of flour weight or total?

Thanks for the complement on the pies John.

Yes, 1.7% of the flour weight.

Craig
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2010, 12:43:39 AM »
Craig,

They are very tasty looking pizzas!   ;D  Great job.  Interesting you find you like KAAP for making pizza. 

Norma

Thanks Norma,

For me anyway, it just doesn't get any better than KAAP @ 62% hydration. The dough handles the best, and it gives exactly the bite, crumb, and coloration I'm looking for.

Craig

Craig
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2010, 12:53:22 AM »
John, I didn't think you hijacked the thread and glad that you posted your pie, but then again I didn't start the thread so we'll see what Craig says.   :P

PB, you are suppose to eat the pizza not.....  >:D

Hey cool blog, thanks for adding me on the celebrity list!  woohoo!   :-D

Chau, John, il mio thread il tuo thread.

I second you on the blog - we better watch out - somebody might accidentally think we know what we are doing...

Thanks for all the other great complements too guys! They mean a lot.

Craig
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2010, 01:07:54 AM »
Thanks Chau.

Interesting you say that about me not needing a WFO... I actually poured the slab for one a couple weeks ago. No promises on when I'll actually start on the oven, but I'm going to build it myself brick-by-brick.

Craig

Craig, just b/c I don't think you need one, doesn't mean I don't want one myself.  Congrats on the new project, I am very happy for you and excited to see your progress in the near future.  I hope you will keep us all posted.  I too had plans on building a low dome NP oven myself, until FB came out with their new Premio2g line.   I'm looking at ordering the premio2g100 (40") model very soon, but this thread has me 2nd guessing myself. 

Why shouldn't I go out and buy me a $400 grill with rear rotisserie burner to see if it wouldn't improve my MBE pies before pulling the trigger on a $4k oven (with shipping)?  With the outdoor kitchen it will be double that I'm sure.  But then again, I'm sure there is NOTHING quite like firing up a WFO and the aesthetics of looking at it in the backyard either.  Why am I so torn?  :-\   And I can't really poll you guys on what to do, b/c I already know what you all will say.  ::)

Chau
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 01:12:03 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2010, 01:55:32 AM »
Why shouldn't I go out and buy me a $400 grill with rear rotisserie burner to see if it wouldn't improve my MBE pies before pulling the trigger on a $4k oven (with shipping)?  With the outdoor kitchen it will be double that I'm sure.  But then again, I'm sure there is NOTHING quite like firing up a WFO and the aesthetics of looking at it in the backyard either.  Why am I so torn?  :-\   And I can't really poll you guys on what to do, b/c I already know what you all will say.  ::)

It will be $800 by the time you get done with the insulation and stone necessary to get the performance you'll want. If I didn't have the grill already (and it gets used as a grill much more than as an oven) or need to buy one regardless, I'm not sure I would have gone that way. I think I would have gone the WFO route. I've known since the first time I baked a pie in a WFO - which was before I modded the grill - that I was going to get one. The only question was when. Hopefully I'll be done with it before next summer. That will be about 3 years.

There is one nice benefit of the grill mod - you can keep it under a covered porch and bake rain or shine!

Craig
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2010, 05:51:08 AM »
I'm looking at ordering the premio2g100 (40") model very soon, but this thread has me 2nd guessing myself. 

Chau - When you are making multiple batches of dough a day for bread and pizza and constantly finding new and exciting ways to hone your skills (such as yourself), the WFO will be worth every penny. It took me months to decide, but $5k later I could not conceive of life without a WFO. And if I were to do it again - the Premio2g100 would be at the top of my list (of course, built on a metal stand and vented just like a SF oven!).

Craig - I don't know if you have investigated oven construction yet, but FornoBravo.com has plans for an oven called Pompei, which can be built in a low dome neapolitan configuration. For height ratio reference (and you may already have this link): http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1118.msg9910.html#msg9910

John

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2010, 06:13:18 AM »
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2010, 10:21:41 AM »
John - thanks for the link. All in all, it is right along the lines of what I have planned. It looks like Marco deleted many of his posts? I wish I could read them for the insight. I don't suppose anyone has an archive of the deleted posts? or notes on their content?

Thanks,
Craig
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2010, 10:52:11 AM »
Chau - When you are making multiple batches of dough a day for bread and pizza and constantly finding new and exciting ways to hone your skills (such as yourself), the WFO will be worth every penny. It took me months to decide, but $5k later I could not conceive of life without a WFO. And if I were to do it again - the Premio2g100 would be at the top of my list (of course, built on a metal stand and vented just like a SF oven!).


John

John, I'm constantly finding new ways to hone my skill, but I'm actually not making that much bread and pizza.  Just doing very small batches, but I totally understand your point though.  Thank you.

What do you feel is the difference or advantage of the metal stand vs a cinderblock base?  And also how would you vent the premio2g100 like a SF oven?  How would you physically direct the vent back?  Just use a couple of elbow joints to turn the vent 90 deg towards the back and then another 90 to turn it up towards the sky?

Also, by doing this I will have effectively lengthen the chimney vent.  Do you think this will have any effect (postive or negative) on the draw of air or the function of the oven. 

Marco says the vent pipe should not be vertical on the front opening.  I understand what and why he says this but aren't there like a million pompeii ovens in use with the vent pipe vertical?

Chau
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 01:54:13 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2010, 11:43:52 AM »
30 degrees is the maximum amount of deviation allowed by code (and drawability), so it 30's over then 30's back vertical.  Longer flue distance improves draw to a limit.


 

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