Author Topic: Refrigerator Proofing  (Read 3660 times)

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Offline LD

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Refrigerator Proofing
« on: December 09, 2010, 09:47:35 PM »
I have been lurking around the forum for a while now and have found a wealth of information and decided it was time to pose a question.  I have been making pizza for a while now and have a basic dough recipe that is I guess what you all call an emergency dough.  I am looking at breaking away from a traditional Christmas dinner and having a pizza party.  I am interested in feedback as to the dough recipe and allowing to rise overnight in the fridge.  Does it appear that the recipe would work as written.  I must say I have not been very diligent about weighing vs. volume for ingredients and must profess that the entire bakers percentages still baffles me a little.  The last time I made this I substitute a cup of Semolina flour and must say it was the best crust so far.  Of course it seems I say that every time I make the pizza.  So here goes.
4 1/2 c flour, I use AP except recent substitution of 1 c of Semolina
1tsp Salt
1/4 c olive oil
2 pkgs of dry yeast.  I assume ADY, but I have been using IDY. 
1 1/2 c Warm water
2 tsp light brown sugar. 
Rise time is 1.5 hours. 

I have been using my bread machine for the kneading which works very well.  Let me know what you think and if changes should be made to use the overnight fridge proof method.  How long do you think it would take to rise in the fridge to be ready to use?  How long should I give the dough out of the fridge on the day I am going to use the dough? 


Offline jerrym

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2010, 10:32:14 AM »
LD,

it would help if you put your recipe through the site's calculator - this expresses everything as a % of the flour and makes understanding of the recipe quick and easy. i weigh as much as i can and fall back on measuring spoons only when too small for scales - it makes the process of making the dough very simple and quick.

i can sort of relate through my own experience to some of your questions.

i used 8% oil for years until just before joining the site (came across the jeff varasono site). i've since ditched oil completely although i'm thinking at some point of trying a 1%.

on fridge fermenting this is a big hit with me. you need quite a few plastic sandwich boxes and space in the fridge (i currently have 2 batches of total 6 off boxes in fridge). i see sort of 3 days as the minimum stay in the fridge to get the taste benefit. if you are fixed on a short ferment then i'd keep it simple and make the dough the same day.

i had bread machine but switched to manual knead when it broke. once you get the hang of the manual knead it's far better as you become more in touch with the feel of the dough. can add pick of how i knead if of help.

i take the dough boxes out the fridge 2 hrs before using and keep the lids on. it really depends on how warm your ambient is.

Offline LD

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2010, 11:08:57 AM »
Thanks for the info jerrym.  Just out of curiosity why did you ditch the oil?   What does that do for your crust?  As for the overnight ferment, I was doing it for ease of use so I am not making dough on Christmas day.   

buceriasdon

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2010, 01:30:06 PM »
LD, For overnight you need to cut back on yeast. Way back. You didn't say how much a package weighs, but even slowed down two packages is too much. Think along the lines of 1 teaspoon to 4.5 cups flour. Really, converting to percentages makes things so much easier to understand and to make changes to a recipe.
Don

Offline Reggiano

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2010, 01:56:48 PM »
I use 3/4 Teaspoon of IDY yeast for a 2400 Gram batch of dough.This gives me a 4-5 day cold rise (38 Degree). I would scale that back a bit.Trust me, KEEP GOOD NOTES! These guys knowledge is amazing!

Offline LD

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2010, 05:34:12 PM »
buceriasdon the packages are the small packages you can buy at any grocery store.  They equal about a teaspoon of yeast.  I am going to do some experimentation this weekend and will keep track of weights, although on my digital scale, I don't believe I can get low enough to measure the small amount of yeast for a small batch.  Is the calculator to use the one for choosing either dough size or thickness?  I will cut back to 1 tsp and see how that works for such a long rise.  I venture to say the 2 pkgs is why the rise takes an hour.  On another note, i typically bulk rise and cut up after rising to roll out.  This time I am thinking of weighing and cutting an using a proofing box.  Will any plastic tub with a tight fitting cover suffice?  Should I still brush with oil, as I doubt the tupperware container is truly airtight. 

buceriasdon

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2010, 07:14:28 PM »
Hi LD, Yes it becomes difficult on some scales to measure a teaspoon of yeast. Most of us (but not all) do use a teaspoon or a half a teaspoon or a Tbs. when the measurements get that small. I have two packages of yeast, the Fleischmann's net weight is 21 grams, roughly 2 or so grams to a level teaspoon so there are a lot more than a teaspoon to a package. The made in Mexico packet contains 11 grams, close to five teaspoons. Fortunately you have plenty of time to try a new recipe out using much less yeast than you are using now. Halve the recipe and give it a try. Check my math but I calculated your flour weight at say 585 grams. 1 and 1/2 Cups water, say 354 grams. That would give you a hydration rate of 61%. 585 times .61 = 356 grams water. 585 divided by 2 = 292.5 flour weight. 292.5 X .61 = 178 grams water. Halve the rest of your ingredients except the yeast and give it a whirl in the fridge over night. Reggiano suggested under 3/4tsp. good place to start. I know you will quite pleased with the ease your opening and however you work your dough will be from the longer time in the fridge. I oil my round Tupperware container and place it in the fridge right after kneading and balling. I go three days. I don't use oil in my dough. Keep us posted!! ;D 
saludos, Don


Quote from: LD link=topic=12531.msg11at is 746#msg119746 date=1292020452
buceriasdon the packages are the small packages you can buy at any grocery store.  They equal about a teaspoon of yeast.  I am going to do some experimentation this weekend and will keep track of weights, although on my digital scale, I don't believe I can get low enough to measure the small amount of yeast for a small batch.  Is the calculator to use the one for choosing either dough size or thickness?  I will cut back to 1 tsp and see how that works for such a long rise.  I venture to say the 2 pkgs is why the rise takes an hour.  On another note, i typically bulk rise and cut up after rising to roll out.  This time I am thinking of weighing and cutting an using a proofing box.  Will any plastic tub with a tight fitting cover suffice?  Should I still brush with oil, as I doubt the Tupperware container is truly airtight. 

Offline Essen1

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2010, 07:21:30 PM »
Don,

Are you sure that two packs of Fleischmann's weigh 21 grams? Here that weight is for three packs at 7 grams each.

Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2010, 07:25:17 PM »
buceriasdon the packages are the small packages you can buy at any grocery store.  They equal about a teaspoon of yeast.  I am going to do some experimentation this weekend and will keep track of weights, although on my digital scale, I don't believe I can get low enough to measure the small amount of yeast for a small batch.  Is the calculator to use the one for choosing either dough size or thickness?  I will cut back to 1 tsp and see how that works for such a long rise.  I venture to say the 2 pkgs is why the rise takes an hour.  On another note, i typically bulk rise and cut up after rising to roll out.  This time I am thinking of weighing and cutting an using a proofing box.  Will any plastic tub with a tight fitting cover suffice?  Should I still brush with oil, as I doubt the tupperware container is truly airtight. 


LD,

A typical packet of ADY or IDY is 7 grams, or about 1/4 ounce. Technically, that comes to almost 1 7/8 teaspoon for ADY and about 2 1/3 teaspoon for ADY. However, I have never checked those actual amounts for accuracy. Yeast companies do not want home users to know that there is a difference in the two forms of yeast. They want home users to use the two forms of yeast interchangeably. However, most professionals draw a distinction between the two forms of yeast. In your case, you may want to note how much yeast you use by volume. That can later be converted to a corresponding weight value.

As far as the dough calculating tool is concerned, you will not be able to use it until you have the weights for the flour and water. With those weights, I can help you do the rest of the math, including converting the yeast, salt, olive oil, and brown sugar from volume measurements to weights.

You are correct that using two packets of yeast will result in a very fast rise in a short period of time. A dough made with that amount of yeast would not survive long in a cold fermentation environment. It would overferment in pretty short order. Hence, the need to dramatically cut back the amount of yeast you used.

With respect to the plastic storage container, ideally you want some mechanism, such as a small hole in the lid, to allow gases of fermentation to escape while retaining the moisture that results from the fermentation process. Even then, it is a good idea to oil the dough balls to keep a skin from forming on their outer surfaces.

If you don't mind, can you tell me which method you use to measure out your flour, among the Measurement Method choices listed in the pulldown menu of the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/? If your method is not listed, please note which method is the closest to what you use, or else describe in detail how you measure out your flour by volume.

Peter


buceriasdon

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2010, 07:46:47 PM »
Ahh Ha!, you are 100% correct. My packets have a sticker on them in Spanish saying 21 grams covering the English printing. I just measured one, yep 7 grams on the nose. Three packets together. 21 grams. Thanks for catching that.
Don


Don,

Are you sure that two packs of Fleischmann's weigh 21 grams? Here that weight is for three packs at 7 grams each.




Offline Essen1

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2010, 08:22:26 PM »
Ahh Ha!, you are 100% correct. My packets have a sticker on them in Spanish saying 21 grams covering the English printing. I just measured one, yep 7 grams on the nose. Three packets together. 21 grams. Thanks for catching that.
Don



21 gramos?  ;D

Anyway, the individual weight is also printed on each packet itself. Or at least it should be.
Mike

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buceriasdon

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2010, 09:05:56 PM »
Nope Mike, Only the center one I guess.  When I tried to remove the sticker it lifted the paper printing with it. On the back is another sticker stating " Pais De Origen Canada " and some nutrimental infomacion.
Don

21 gramos?  ;D

Anyway, the individual weight is also printed on each packet itself. Or at least it should be.

Offline LD

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2010, 12:14:08 AM »
As usual you guys are awesome about providing feedback.  Given my lack of proper measurement it is no wonder I have inconsistent dough, especially when doubling the recipe as written.  Pete-zza I would say I use the heavy method in measuring the dough as I dip the cup in the flour tap with knife and then level. 
The exception to the above would probably be the semolina.  That I pour into the cup as it is in a much smaller container and level off, so it is probably light. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 12:19:28 AM by LD »

Offline jerrym

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2010, 03:51:41 AM »
LD,

ditching the oil came from finding by accident the jeff varasarno site (before being recommended this site). i did side by side comparison using garlic butter topping of my dough at 8% oil and 59% hydration with jeff's and a few derivatives of both recipes. the thing that struck me most was how good the dough without oil tasted. i'm still learning the descriptive words ie crumb etc so can't describe the difference - it's worth a try even if it don't suit at least it puts your mind at rest.

i am certainly still learning and now realize that there is not just oil to go at. the fridge proofing has been a major improvement for me (Jackie Tran put me onto this post, "New KitchenAid Dough Making Method", the 1st few pages were just what i needed and what i'm working on now). Scott123 put me onto using tiles or stone and this is another key requirement for me.

Offline jerrym

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2010, 03:56:33 AM »
With respect to the plastic storage container, ideally you want some mechanism, such as a small hole in the lid, to allow gases of fermentation to escape while retaining the moisture that results from the fermentation process. Even then, it is a good idea to oil the dough balls to keep a skin from forming on their outer surfaces.

Pete-zza,

i'd not picked up on this. is there an existing post to get more understanding. i currently oil the dough box and would be concerned that the small hole would lead to skinning.

Offline LD

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2010, 10:19:49 AM »
Jerry the stone is the only way to go.  I have three, the original being the terra cotta store bought variety and the other two slabs of granite.  I bake on convection 550 in an electric oven and lets stones heat for at least an hour.  I have baked upwards of 12 pizzas and have had good results each time.  This spring I am shooting for an outside pizza oven.  A DIY version that doesn't cost me $2k, but should serve my purposes. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2010, 10:54:46 AM »
Pete-zza,

i'd not picked up on this. is there an existing post to get more understanding. i currently oil the dough box and would be concerned that the small hole would lead to skinning.


jerrym,

I originally got the idea to use a lid with a small hole in it from member November. He discusses this matter at Reply 9, last paragraph, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg37982.html#msg37982, taken together with a followup post, first paragraph, at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg38039.html#msg38039. Also, although I never mentioned it before on the forum, November, in a private message to me, once suggested using or designing a convex shaped lid (a flat U-shaped lid) with a hole in the center to allow the moisture of condensation to collect on the inside surface of the lid and through gravity to fall onto the dough in the container, while at the same time allowing gases of fermentation to escape if needed.

I also discussed the above matter at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9550.msg88547/topicseen.html#msg88547 and at Reply 211 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg84787/topicseen.html#msg84787.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2010, 04:02:30 PM »
Also, although I never mentioned it before on the forum, November, in a private message to me, once suggested using or designing a convex shaped lid (a flat U-shaped lid) with a hole in the center to allow the moisture of condensation to collect on the inside surface of the lid and through gravity to fall onto the dough in the container, while at the same time allowing gases of fermentation to escape if needed.


Not quite, but close.  Bellow is the original image of the subject apparatus.

http://www.unclesalmon.com/lib/images/apparatus/dough_container.png

The micro holes are arranged around the rim of the container.  There is no hole in the lid.  Because water vapor diffusion is overtaken by air pressure, much more air will pass through the horizontal-axis holes than water vapor.  If condensed water was allowed to collect on the lid where there are holes, the air pressure would actually accelerate water vapor permeation (loss of water from container).  Holes along the vertical plane help assure low water collection near escaping air.  With the help of gravity, the shape of the lid puts the condensed water as far away from the holes as possible.  Pragmatism was the only reason a hole through the lid was considered.  It's quite difficult to drill holes through borosilicate glass.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2010, 04:13:41 PM »
November,

Thanks for the clarification. Over the years I have gotten thousands of private messages on the forum, which has forced me to delete most of them. So, I couldn't go back to get the one you sent me. I misspoke when I mentioned that there was a small hole in the lid since that would have been illogical, but I clearly remembered the convex lid. But not the small holes at the side. I will have to start taking one of those supplements to improve my memory  ;D.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: Refrigerator Proofing
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2010, 04:21:59 PM »
So, I couldn't go back to get the one you sent me.

That's fine.  The funny thing is you linked to my publicly available statement which describes the more correct location.

you could also drill a tiny hole (1-2 mm) near the lid
;)