Author Topic: Can great bread lead to great pizza?  (Read 1717 times)

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Offline sparkyjt

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2010, 11:16:27 PM »
I too have recently been bitten by the bug. I now am playing with sd starters and trying bread as well.  I have learned a great deal from the site and you in particular.  Keep up the good work and im glad your doing bread so I can keep riding your coat tails.    Thanks     JT


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2010, 09:33:51 AM »
I have to say that even though I haven't been making bread for very long at all, HG flour consistently makes a better loaf.  Better spring, lighter softer texture.    :chef:

Made a break through last night.   1st I was able to make a fantastic dough using 75/25 (00/HG) blend that resulted in a great bread boule and one of my best (if not the best) 00 pies I have made.   And 2ndly, I was also able to make a fantastic pie using 75/25 (HG/00) -just the opposite ratio of said pie above- BUT the 00 pie was better!  This is the first time I've been able to make fantastic pies using respective flours side by side and the CAPUTO pie beat out the HG flour pie.   I hope this is a turning point for me.

Both pies were crispy on the outside, light, airy, moist, etc on the inside but the caputo pie had an unmatched lightness to it no doubt imparted by it's lower protein content.   

First up is the 75/25 00/HG pie and bread.  Here's the recipe I used.

Flour blend (75/25) 00/HG
water 63%
ischia starter 30% of flour weight.  Increases HR to 65%
salt 2.7%
IDY 0.7%
oil 1%


Wanted to make 2 important notes here.  Look at the partially sad and un inflated rim.  I think if I had a WFO or better/proper heat distribution in the MBE, the entire rim would have puffed up more.

Also these pies and bread were fermented for 3.5 hours total with good flavor.   Although "good" is relative and subjective, I wanted to make a point that it is both a myth and a ridiculous notion that a great pizza crust with good flavor can not be made in under 4 hours.    :chef:

Chau

« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 01:08:35 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2010, 09:35:03 AM »
Another crumb shot and the bread made from the same formula posted above.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2010, 09:39:33 AM »
Here's the HG pie.  This pie was excellent as well, but side by side, the caputo won out. 

flour blend (75/25) HG/00
water 71%
Starter 30% which up the HR to ~75%
IDY 0.7%
salt 2.7%
oil 2%

Here's the pie HG pie with crumb shots.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2010, 09:46:09 AM »
I too have recently been bitten by the bug. I now am playing with sd starters and trying bread as well.  I have learned a great deal from the site and you in particular.  Keep up the good work and im glad your doing bread so I can keep riding your coat tails.    Thanks     JT

Thank you Sparky for your comment.  I always appreciate feedback - both positive and negative.  It's good to hear that my efforts have been helpful to you. 

Chau
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 11:18:10 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2010, 10:00:58 AM »
Great stuff as usual!!!

I can't wait to try out the recipe and see how it works out in my environment :)

Mark

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2010, 10:17:56 AM »
Chau - Wow. Stunning pizza. There is something about Caputo that brings a flavor or richness that is easily missed using other flours. I am not sure why. That is why I always try to make it work in the recipe I am using.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2010, 10:46:52 AM »
Great stuff as usual!!!

I can't wait to try out the recipe and see how it works out in my environment :)

Mark

Mark if you want to give this a try, the idea is to mix everthing EXCEPT the IDY in.  Let the dough bulk rise for 2 hours or so.  This gives the 30% or more starter to work and this is what adds the starter flavor.  After the bulk (and hopefully you've underkneaded), fold in the IDY (whatever amount you deem appropriate for the desire proof time) and that provides the lift.   This concept was borrowed from Jeff Verasano's page of using starter for flavor and commercial yeast for lift, but I have just taken it to the extreme to make an emergency dough.  These were truely 2 of my best pies made under 4 hours.

Good luck,
Chau
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 02:35:56 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2010, 10:52:48 AM »
Chau - Wow. Stunning pizza. There is something about Caputo that brings a flavor or richness that is easily missed using other flours. I am not sure why. That is why I always try to make it work in the recipe I am using.

John

John thank you as always.   I have been playing around with caputo for 6 months or so and getting good results now and then.  I wasn't able to verify how great the flour really was despite reading about it on the forum.   I decided to keep at it and reserve judgment until I could make something really great with it.  In the back of my mind, I really did not want to believe that Caputo was really that good, especially since it costs 6x more than my HG flour.  I guess I wasn't developing the gluten enough.  I was very please with this side by side comparison as I felt I was able to max out each flour's potential here and the caputo was the winner.   I hope to be able to make this type of pie with it from here on out.  I guess for now, I am satisfied to conclude that caputo can make a better pie if used/worked properly.   This was big for me.   

Chau

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2010, 01:48:39 PM »

I think if I had a WFO or better/proper heat distribution in the MBE, the entire rim would have puffed up more.


Chau,

If these pies taste as good as they look, I think you might be disappointed with a WFO. Superb effort as usual.

Bill

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2010, 03:38:45 PM »
Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate it.   Bill now that I have gotten a good taste of the potential of caputo in my MBE, I will have a new goal to shoot towards in normalizing a routine for consistency.   As soon as I can get that down, I would love to have another pizza party and get your expert opinion.   

The pies were really that good.  I am curious as to why you think I might be disappointed with a WFO.

My main complaint (if there is one) with the MBE is that the main heat source is concentrated at the back end so only about 1/3 of the rim is exposed to that high heat at any given time.  The first 1/3 gets a nice big oven spring and I'll usually turn at about the 45 sec mark.  By the time the last 1/3 of the rim makes it to the back, the rim has somewhat set already and it doesn't get as much of an oven spring compared to the rest.   I'm hoping that a WFO would correct that but it's really not that big of deal for me I guess.  My next step is to work away from the 4 hour ferment and do more of a 10-12 hour and then 24 hour again trying to achieve the same or similar results. 

I wanted to make a mention about the bread.  It too was very good.  This is also the first time that I was able to get a truely shattering and thin crust on a bread.  I believe this thinness to be due to the lower protein content of the caputo 00 flour.  I gave 1/2 of this boule to my parents who had stopped by to say hello.  I had a thick slice this morning and my 4 yo ate the last of it for breakast.  It went by too quickly.

I snapped a quick shot of a slice this morning.

Chau

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2010, 07:10:05 PM »
I am curious as to why you think I might be disappointed with a WFO.

Perhaps any improvements would be small; the pies coming out of your MBE look beautiful. Heat is decidedly not evenly distributed in a WFO and the closer the pie is to the fire, the more extreme is this imbalance. But I was just kidding you about not getting a WFO. They'll have to pry your peel out of your cold, dead hands before you will give yours up once you get one. 

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2010, 08:40:12 PM »
Mark if you want to give this a try, the idea is to mix everthing EXCEPT the IDY in.  Let the dough bulk rise for 2 hours or so.  This gives the 30% or more starter to work and this is what adds the starter flavor.  After the bulk (and hopefully you've underkneaded), fold in the IDY (whatever amount you deem appropriate for the desire proof time) and that provides the lift.   This concept was borrowed from Jeff Verasano's page of using starter for flavor and commercial yeast of lift, but I have just taken it to the extreme to make an emergency dough.  These were truely 2 of my best pies made in under 4 hours.

Good luck,
Chau

Thanks for the expanded instructions Chau, much appreciated!

I just got around to activating the Ischia starter that Norma sent me a while back.  It's nice and active now, so I'll feed it late tonite and hopefully it'll be ready in the morning.  I'll try a batch for a 24 hour proof since the temps here in FL are MUCH cooler than normal, I can take advantage :)

Mark

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2010, 09:15:12 PM »
Thank you for the feedback Bill.  I was wondering how much more I could push the limits but I'm sure there is always room.   I was also suspecting that WFO's have their own peculiarlarities and that it would take some time to learn the ins and outs of any particular one.  Having tweaked the MBE and learning how to bake well in it, it definitely is somewhat of an "easy" button.  Quick warm up and good results.  The only other downside is that I'm really limited to a 2.5m bake.  I guess that is okay since I'm liking the results.  I'm not really sure I would fall heads over heels for a 1min bake but I'm keeping an open mind.


Mark, what % are you planning to use for a 24h room temp ferment and what is your room temp?

Chau

Offline norma427

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2010, 11:15:45 PM »

I just got around to activating the Ischia starter that Norma sent me a while back.  It's nice and active now, so I'll feed it late tonite and hopefully it'll be ready in the morning.  I'll try a batch for a 24 hour proof since the temps here in FL are MUCH cooler than normal, I can take advantage :)

Mark

Mark,

I hope your Ischia starter works well for you whether you make pizza or bread with it.  :)  Chau also has a sibling of your starter, so it will be interesting to see if you both achieve the same results. 

I also believe great bread can lead to great pizza. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2010, 10:23:00 AM »
Norma, thanks again!!!  It took 2-3 feedings on 12-hour intervals starting from the dried state you sent but it's fully active now.  Tiny amount dropped in water floats, and that's the indicator I've been using for readiness lately....after I finish this freshly pulled machiato, I'll stumble back to the kitchen and start the mix  :chef:

Mark, what % are you planning to use for a 24h room temp ferment and what is your room temp?

Chau

Currently 73 but outside is a bit cooler and I can take advantage of that and I was thinking in the 10% range for the starter.  I just did one the other day based on that amount and it worked out pretty well.  These ratios are your puppy, what do you think?  And thanks as always :)

Mark

Offline norma427

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2010, 10:33:06 AM »
Norma, thanks again!!!  It took 2-3 feedings on 12-hour intervals starting from the dried state you sent but it's fully active now.  Tiny amount dropped in water floats, and that's the indicator I've been using for readiness lately....after I finish this freshly pulled machiato, I'll stumble back to the kitchen and start the mix  :chef:

Mark

Mark,

Good to hear you got your starter fully activated.  :) Your freshly pulled  machiato sounds great, too.  I didnít get any espresso machine at home as of this date.

Best of luck to you and Chau!   :chef: :chef: I have awhile to go before I can get results like Chau does. He has become a master of different doughs.  :chef:

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2010, 11:03:27 AM »
He definitely blazes a trail that makes it easier for people like me to reach goals quicker.

Sorry to hear about the espresso machine but I'll make you a deal....when I move up to a new machine, we'll make a great deal for what I have now :)  You'll never go back once you start making your own!

I'm not sure that I want to start recreating Neo pies, but I want to leverage what Chau has done to see if I can improve my crust-texture and get a little closer to what I'm actually trying to achieve.

Offline norma427

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2010, 11:12:58 AM »
He definitely blazes a trail that makes it easier for people like me to reach goals quicker.

Sorry to hear about the espresso machine but I'll make you a deal....when I move up to a new machine, we'll make a great deal for what I have now :)  You'll never go back once you start making your own!

I'm not sure that I want to start recreating Neo pies, but I want to leverage what Chau has done to see if I can improve my crust-texture and get a little closer to what I'm actually trying to achieve.

Mark,

I agree, Chau does blaze the trail for others.  He does bring Kung Foolery to pizza making!  :)

Sounds great to me, if you ever move up to another espresso machine. 

You will get to want you want to achieve with Chauís help and experimenting.  :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!