Author Topic: Can great bread lead to great pizza?  (Read 2229 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2010, 11:45:56 AM »
Thank you for the kind words Mark and Norma.  It's much appreciated.  Mark sorry I couldn't get to your question earlier.

In my kitchen at 73F, 10% starter wouldn't make it 24h.  12 hours maybe 14, but yeast seemingly works more efficient here.   I would probably be able to squeeze 24 hour out of 5%, but you may want to try 7-8% for 24h.   Also if 10% has worked well before, I'm sure it will work great again.   Just need to watch the dough periodically.   

Good luck, and I would love to hear about your results.  Your pies are looking really great also.  You've definitely have made great strides Mark.   

Chau
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 02:32:48 PM by Jackie Tran »


Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2010, 02:41:33 PM »
Thanks Chau, I appreciate that!  With a little luck and all the help here, I may actually start hitting the magical combination of a crispy exterior with a moist and chewy interior ... :)

As for the dough, I'll keep a close eye...who knows, I may be making a pie at midnight tonite :)  If I pace the moonshine, I should be ok :)

Mark

parallei

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2010, 05:11:20 PM »
Chau,
 
You inspired me to try something new to me.  I had a 6 day old pizza dough ball sitting in the fridge (KASL, 61% hydration, .2% IDY, 2% salt). So I let it come to room temp, stretched and folded it into a loaf a la the Tartine book let it rise for a few hours and baked it in the combo cooker.  It only took 30 minutes.  It is only 315g.  The little thing did the singing thing too ;D  No crumb shot yet.

Your pies look wonderful......

Paul
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 10:54:35 PM by parallei »

Pizza01

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2010, 07:37:35 AM »
chau your work here is amazing! your bread look amazing and your pies also. what kind of oven are you using? not home oven?...right?
parallei your bread looks amazing also.
this thread teachs so many thing.
my wife said to me every pie i make this dough can make great bread and now i read it here.
which remind me that i tried from once and a while, but now i am having an urge to make bread   :D
your are right with many things and the one thing i am agreeing with you the most is there is no reason we cant make pizza like the pro's.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 07:39:47 AM by msheetrit »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2010, 12:22:04 PM »
Chau,
 
You inspired me to try something new to me.  I had a 6 day old pizza dough ball sitting in the fridge (KASL, 61% hydration, .2% IDY, 2% salt). So I let it come to room temp, stretched and folded it into a loaf a la the Tartine book let it rise for a few hours and baked it in the combo cooker.  It only took 30 minutes.  It is only 315g.  The little thing did the singing thing too ;D  No crumb shot yet.

Your pies look wonderful......

Paul

Thanks Paul, looks like you got a great loaf out of that pizza dough.  By the looks of it, I bet the pizza was pretty good too.   The cool thing about doing these little tests is that we can learn to free ourselves (somewhat) from a specific recipe or technique.    You can get a nearly identical bread crumb without doing the turns as long as enough gluten has been developed through kneading and the final shaping.   How cool is that? 

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2010, 12:30:21 PM »
chau your work here is amazing! your bread look amazing and your pies also. what kind of oven are you using? not home oven?...right?
parallei your bread looks amazing also.
this thread teachs so many thing.
my wife said to me every pie i make this dough can make great bread and now i read it here.
which remind me that i tried from once and a while, but now i am having an urge to make bread   :D
your are right with many things and the one thing i am agreeing with you the most is there is no reason we cant make pizza like the pro's.



Thanks Micheal.  You are correct,  I use mostly my MBE (Mini Black Egg) for baking NY-elite style pizzas, and my home oven for making some NY style, deep dish, and breads.   I have also used my home oven to make NP style pizzas with limited success.   

You can read more about my MBE here and see many more pictures of the progression my pies.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11126.0.html  

The idea of the MBE came from member Villa Roma (formerly known as Ronbro).  There is also a much longer thread with lots of good information called the LBE (little black egg).   
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4753.0.html

Micheal, it sounds like you have a smart wife.  You should listen to her more often.   :-D  JK, I need to listen to mine more often as well. 

Another funny thing, is that I agree with you about me being right about many things.   :-D  >:D  I kid! I kid!

Chau

Offline norma427

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2010, 01:06:12 PM »
Chau,

I donít know if you remember or not, but I did make bread out of my Ischia Starter pizza dough at:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11763.msg108975.html#msg108975

I have also used my preferment Lehmann dough to make many bread related products. (like buns, bread sticks, muffins, and others)

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2010, 01:42:12 PM »
Chau,

I donít know if you remember or not, but I did make bread out of my Ischia Starter pizza dough at:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11763.msg108975.html#msg108975

I have also used my preferment Lehmann dough to make many bread related products. (like buns, bread sticks, muffins, and others)

Norma

Yes I do remember Norma.  I even remember the waffle pizza. :-D   My original intention of starting this thread was not to determine if bread can be made out of pizza dough.  Of course it can and has been done numerous times by several members including yourself.   

My original intent was to show the opposite.  Can we perfect our pizza dough by learning how to perfect our bread.   I find that in learning how to make pizza dough, just about all of us (including myself) have gotten sideline with recipes, techniques, and varying baking apparatus.   

IMO, I feel that our focus has been misplaced.   I truely believe that the focus should be on perfecting desired textures.  If we first focus our efforts on learning about gluten development, dough strength, fermentation, and baking conditions that optimize oven spring, we can then improve our pizza dough/crusts and take it beyond to the next level.  And what better way to do that than by learning how to make bread.   Bread is the crust alone, unencumbered by the sauce and cheese.   Surely both you and I can make pizza dough with one hand tied behind our backs, but would it be something worthy of praise?  Something to stand the test of time?  Something that shall be undeniable in the opinions of the greats!  Something to bring them to tears of joy!  :-D This is my intention for this thread. 

Chau
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 01:52:07 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2010, 01:55:54 PM »
Chau,

I can understand now why you started this thread.  I believe if you also have a good understanding of how to make different breads, it also leads to better pizzamaking skills.  If you read any of Professor Raymond Calvelís or Didier Rosadaís writings, they always say "To grow and excel, bakers must not only learn 'what' to do, but understand the 'hows' and 'whys' of what they're doing." and they were bread makers.

I donít know how many of any forum members pizza formulas will stand the time.  There are so many types of pizzas, just like bread.  It is all in the learning process.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2010, 02:15:26 PM »
Chau,

Are you limiting you discussion to making the dough by hand? And are you also limiting your discussion to artisan types of doughs?

Peter


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2010, 02:53:01 PM »
Chau,

Are you limiting you discussion to making the dough by hand? And are you also limiting your discussion to artisan types of doughs?

Peter

Peter, no and not necessarily.  I only wanted to share some personal thoughts about dough.  The thread is open to all and anyone who has anything remotely related to the topic at hand.

Also I forgot to say, thank you for your earlier post.

Chau

Pizza01

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2010, 03:05:08 PM »
this amazing thread and your spectacular bread and my wife  ;D who told me three month ago and all the way to make bread using the same dough i made for pizza.
has giving me the muze and i made bread also
it just came out from the oven so i havent cuted yet.
500 gr bread flour
68%water
1tbs sugar
1 full tsp salt
2 tsp olive oil
2 tsp idy
i leted the dough rise for 2 and half hour every 40 minute i drop it and knead very good. 20 minute before i puted in the oven i kneaded it.
i puted into preheated oven ( just like my pizza 80 minute on the max 270 cel degrees)
below the stone i puted 10 icecubes for the steam. a trick i have learned from famous israeli chef who has chain of bakery here in israel.
and i dident open the oven until it seem to be ready.
i plan to cut the bread in our new years ev, photos will be post later on
happy new years everybody
you can see the water bubling under the stone with the steam.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2010, 03:37:00 PM »
Chau,

The reason I posed the questions is because I would have a hard time using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook to emulate hand kneading and artisan bread making techniques, other than incorporating autolyse and similar rest periods and possibly preferments/starters. Also, with my stand mixer, unless I use a short knead and rely more on biochemical gluten development, I would likely end up with a more fully developed gluten network and a tighter crumb with smaller, tightly packed alveoles. I would perhaps have to go with hand kneading and using techniques such as you described to be able to transfer the principles of bread making to pizza dough making. Or maybe I would have to get a much better stand mixer, or combine machine mixing and kneading with hand kneading and related techniques.

Thinking back, on a commercial level the only pizza operators that I can recall offhand in the U.S. that used bread making techniques to make pizza dough were Brian Spangler, a former bread baker and now the owner of Apizza Scholls, Anthony Mangieri, who also got his start in bread making, Chris Bianco, with his hand kneading and using a preferment of some sort, and Tom Douglas with his poolish-based dough at Serious Pie. Eventually, Brian Spangler went from hand kneading his dough to a commercial mixer, so it is possible that his pizza dough changed from what he made when he kneaded the dough by hand (including multiple folds). Of the foregoing individuals, I think that Chris Bianco is the only one who continues to knead his dough by hand.

Of course, Peter Reinhart, who started out on the bread making side, transferred some of the principles of bread making to pizza dough making, as is reflected in his pizza book American Pie. However, even he may be revising his thinking on long knead times, as John (fazzari) noted recently at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12641.msg121685/topicseen.html#msg121685. Of course, that has always been the method promoted by Tom Lehmann for commercial pizza operators.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2010, 05:33:03 PM »
Chau,

I can understand now why you started this thread.  I believe if you also have a good understanding of how to make different breads, it also leads to better pizzamaking skills.  If you read any of Professor Raymond Calvelís or Didier Rosadaís writings, they always say "To grow and excel, bakers must not only learn 'what' to do, but understand the 'hows' and 'whys' of what they're doing." and they were bread makers.

I donít know how many of any forum members pizza formulas will stand the time.  There are so many types of pizzas, just like bread.  It is all in the learning process.

Norma

Norma - I've forgotten to thank you for your input earlier in the thread as well.   The holidays has really had my mind in many different directions.   I absolutely agree with your statement about expanding one's knowledge about different types of bread doughs and would add different types of pizza dough.  I find all types of dough really fascinating and complicated.   

In all honesty I don't wish any recipe to stand the test of time as I only believe in them to serve as guides.  I wish other newcomers with the spirit to experiment such as yourself, Peter, and others here to come along and continue to elevate the art of dough.   I would love to see others dream big and push the bounds of pizza making to new heights.   For what good is a good pizza if it can't be shared. 

I have a funny and neat story to tell.  My brother lives in Florida at the moment and comes by to visit periodically.  He knows I have been on a pizza quest for the last year.  Everytime he comes home, I make him pizza and he enjoys it each time.  But each time, I am the one disappointed b/c under pressure to perform am unable to make an outstanding pizza for him.  Outstanding to my standards.  The special pizzas only seem to crop up once he's gone and I'm left sending him pictures and the description of how great they are.   Well this past week when he was here, I made those 2 pies pictured in this thread for him.  I was so pleased, I said there that's it....that's the best I can do!  I was finally able to serve him something I deemed worthy of praise.   Of course I was just glad to be able to share those pies with him.

Cheers,
Chau
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 05:37:09 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2010, 06:31:06 PM »
Norma - I've forgotten to thank you for your input earlier in the thread as well.   The holidays has really had my mind in many different directions.   I absolutely agree with your statement about expanding one's knowledge about different types of bread doughs and would add different types of pizza dough.  I find all types of dough really fascinating and complicated.   

In all honesty I don't wish any recipe to stand the test of time as I only believe in them to serve as guides.  I wish other newcomers with the spirit to experiment such as yourself, Peter, and others here to come along and continue to elevate the art of dough.   I would love to see others dream big and push the bounds of pizza making to new heights.   For what good is a good pizza if it can't be shared. 

I have a funny and neat story to tell.  My brother lives in Florida at the moment and comes by to visit periodically.  He knows I have been on a pizza quest for the last year.  Everytime he comes home, I make him pizza and he enjoys it each time.  But each time, I am the one disappointed b/c under pressure to perform am unable to make an outstanding pizza for him.  Outstanding to my standards.  The special pizzas only seem to crop up once he's gone and I'm left sending him pictures and the description of how great they are.   Well this past week when he was here, I made those 2 pies pictured in this thread for him.  I was so pleased, I said there that's it....that's the best I can do!  I was finally able to serve him something I deemed worthy of praise.   Of course I was just glad to be able to share those pies with him.

Cheers,
Chau

Chau,

I also find any kind of dough fascinating and complicated.  Until someone really understands what their dough will do in any situation, (oven temperature, kind of oven, baking stones, proofing, yeast, flour, hydration and all the other variables), it takes me awhile to really understand even one dough, until I do the about the same tests over and over.

You are right about there being an art in dough.  You have taken dough to new heights and have helped me and many others along the way.  I also agree what good is pizza if it canít be shared.

I am glad you were able to serve your brother pizza you deemed worthy of praise and share it with him.  That was a nice story.  :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Pizza01

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2010, 11:26:00 PM »
well...
this hasent worked out, the bread was a failer, i brought it to my wifes grandmother and when she held it in her hands she told me that the bread isnt baked from the inside, she cuted in the middle and i saw with my eyes. i should have noticed but i dident, it was too heavy. by its weight i should have know.
so please tell me what was my problem?
she told me i that the oven was too hot and that i should preheated the oven to 180 cl degrees and after the bread rise in the oven to higheir the temtemperatur.
next time i will use fresh yeast, also with the pizza making.
please could anyone tell me what is "starter" i tryed to find it the pizza glossary under the value and also under PREFERMENT but i couldent understand, is it the process? or is it an ingredient? excuse me for the ignorance, but i want to learn. 
here are the photos you can see that the inside is unbaked dough
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 11:44:07 PM by msheetrit »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2010, 11:46:08 PM »
Lower temp and bake longer.  I usually bake for 20m covered and then another 20m uncovered.  450f covered and 425 uncovered.  But Im also at high altitudes so if you are at sea level lower your temp a bit.

Pizza01

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2011, 08:23:21 AM »
yes i am at sea level. with what you covered it? how you make it wont stick ?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2011, 09:27:36 AM »
yes i am at sea level. with what you covered it? how you make it wont stick ?

I also forgot to mention that depending on the size of the loaf/boule I might bake from 30m to sometimes 50m.  It just depends on the size and the hydration.  As with pizza crust, you don't want a bread that is too moist or too dry. You have to balance the right amount of moisture with the right amount of bake time.  It's like timing the baking of the crust with the baking of the cheese.  You don't want cheese that is undercooked or overcooked. 

As far as covering the bread, you can do so by several means.  You can use a cast iron combo cooker, some sort of clay baker like a romertopf or cloche, a metal mixing bowl, or the pot of a dutch oven, or any moderately tall pot that can rest flat on it's rim edge.

Lodge Combo Cooker
http://www.amazon.com/Lodge-LCC3-Logic-Pre-Seasoned-Cooker/dp/B0009JKG9M/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Reply #71
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12140.60.html

Reply #49 is a beautiful loaf by member dellavechia
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12140.40.html

Romertopf Clay baker - reply #18
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12140.0.html

Clay baker by member Wheelman reply #391
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.380.html

Stone combo set.  reply #439
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.420.html

Metal mixing bowl  reply #251 (Cheap and works very well)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.240.html
I also use something heavy like a rock or small tile to weigh the lid down to prevent steam from escaping.

The idea behind covering the bread during the initial part of the bake is to trap steam that is given off by the moist dough itself.  This moist environment allows the loaf to properly rise.  You can cover for anywhere from 10-20m.  I like to do around 15m.  You can do this initial part of the bake at higher temps if you'd like but should lower your temp after it's uncovered to allow enough baking time as to bake off the moisture to avoid an overly wet crumb. 

Good luck,
Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2011, 09:51:00 AM »
Chau,

The reason I posed the questions is because I would have a hard time using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook to emulate hand kneading and artisan bread making techniques, other than incorporating autolyse and similar rest periods and possibly preferments/starters. Also, with my stand mixer, unless I use a short knead and rely more on biochemical gluten development, I would likely end up with a more fully developed gluten network and a tighter crumb with smaller, tightly packed alveoles. I would perhaps have to go with hand kneading and using techniques such as you described to be able to transfer the principles of bread making to pizza dough making. Or maybe I would have to get a much better stand mixer, or combine machine mixing and kneading with hand kneading and related techniques.

Thinking back, on a commercial level the only pizza operators that I can recall offhand in the U.S. that used bread making techniques to make pizza dough were Brian Spangler, a former bread baker and now the owner of Apizza Scholls, Anthony Mangieri, who also got his start in bread making, Chris Bianco, with his hand kneading and using a preferment of some sort, and Tom Douglas with his poolish-based dough at Serious Pie. Eventually, Brian Spangler went from hand kneading his dough to a commercial mixer, so it is possible that his pizza dough changed from what he made when he kneaded the dough by hand (including multiple folds). Of the foregoing individuals, I think that Chris Bianco is the only one who continues to knead his dough by hand.

Of course, Peter Reinhart, who started out on the bread making side, transferred some of the principles of bread making to pizza dough making, as is reflected in his pizza book American Pie. However, even he may be revising his thinking on long knead times, as John (fazzari) noted recently at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12641.msg121685/topicseen.html#msg121685. Of course, that has always been the method promoted by Tom Lehmann for commercial pizza operators.

Peter

Peter, one of the things I'm currently experimenting with is to make a great bread with a great crumb structure using mostly a straight mixing regimen using a mixer, very little or no folds for gluten strengthening other than the typical folds used in preshaping or shaping.  The idea is to replace Chad's hand turns with straight mixing.  The hypothesis is that gluten development is not dependant on any particular or special techniques and can be achieved in many ways.   If this is true which I believe it is, then I agree that if you simply just shorten (or vary) your mixing times (based on the protein content and HR), you can achieve the crumb structure you wish. 

Well it's simple in theory but more difficult to achieve than that.  You'd really have to balance out your hydration ratio, with proper gluten development (achieved many ways), fermentation, and baking protocol.  But yes, basically we can make a mulitude of crumb structures and textures by varying these elements. 

As far as hand kneading dough...I may have given the idea that I strictly hand knead which isn't true.   I like to hand knead HG flour doughs b/c it takes minimal effort and produces good results.  i can also hand knead high hydration lower protein doughs as well but it can be much more time consuming, so my preference here is to use a mixer.  I tend to underknead and underdevelop the gluten during the initial mix and then develop it further with folds after a moderately lengthy bulk rise (1/2 of total fermenation time).  But I believe that, gluten can be fully developed using a straight mixing protocol, dough minimally balled imediately without a bulk rise, and still achieve a nearly identical crumb compare to the above technique.   This technique is a bit harder to do.  The user would have to adjusts his mindset/perspective for it.  Perhaps down the road sometime, when I'm really skillful I can show 2 nearly identical crumbs made with these vastly different techniques.   

So far I have been able to make very similar crumbs using different types of flours.  This finding somewhat confirms and verifies the idea that gluten development is non dependant on any specific methods or techniques or flours.  If a similar looking crumb with similar texture can be achieved using different protein flours by adjusting water %, kneading times, and baking times then we should also be able to achieve the same result by simply varying the dough process but keep the same flour.  It is simply gluten development secondary to agitation of the dough.  It doesn't matter how we agitate it, whether we use a screw driver (as member villa roma has posted before) or if we use a $1500 spiral mixer, or a $10 bread machine from the thrift store.  If we understand what we are doing and can balance the variables mentioned above, we should be able to produce the same end product. 

I would love to know what members think about this crazy idea.   Or is it really that crazy or impossible? 

Chau
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 11:44:19 AM by Jackie Tran »


 

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