Author Topic: Can great bread lead to great pizza?  (Read 3208 times)

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Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2010, 10:00:58 AM »
Great stuff as usual!!!

I can't wait to try out the recipe and see how it works out in my environment :)

Mark


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2010, 10:17:56 AM »
Chau - Wow. Stunning pizza. There is something about Caputo that brings a flavor or richness that is easily missed using other flours. I am not sure why. That is why I always try to make it work in the recipe I am using.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2010, 10:46:52 AM »
Great stuff as usual!!!

I can't wait to try out the recipe and see how it works out in my environment :)

Mark

Mark if you want to give this a try, the idea is to mix everthing EXCEPT the IDY in.  Let the dough bulk rise for 2 hours or so.  This gives the 30% or more starter to work and this is what adds the starter flavor.  After the bulk (and hopefully you've underkneaded), fold in the IDY (whatever amount you deem appropriate for the desire proof time) and that provides the lift.   This concept was borrowed from Jeff Verasano's page of using starter for flavor and commercial yeast for lift, but I have just taken it to the extreme to make an emergency dough.  These were truely 2 of my best pies made under 4 hours.

Good luck,
Chau
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 02:35:56 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2010, 10:52:48 AM »
Chau - Wow. Stunning pizza. There is something about Caputo that brings a flavor or richness that is easily missed using other flours. I am not sure why. That is why I always try to make it work in the recipe I am using.

John

John thank you as always.   I have been playing around with caputo for 6 months or so and getting good results now and then.  I wasn't able to verify how great the flour really was despite reading about it on the forum.   I decided to keep at it and reserve judgment until I could make something really great with it.  In the back of my mind, I really did not want to believe that Caputo was really that good, especially since it costs 6x more than my HG flour.  I guess I wasn't developing the gluten enough.  I was very please with this side by side comparison as I felt I was able to max out each flour's potential here and the caputo was the winner.   I hope to be able to make this type of pie with it from here on out.  I guess for now, I am satisfied to conclude that caputo can make a better pie if used/worked properly.   This was big for me.   

Chau

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2010, 01:48:39 PM »

I think if I had a WFO or better/proper heat distribution in the MBE, the entire rim would have puffed up more.


Chau,

If these pies taste as good as they look, I think you might be disappointed with a WFO. Superb effort as usual.

Bill
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2010, 03:38:45 PM »
Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate it.   Bill now that I have gotten a good taste of the potential of caputo in my MBE, I will have a new goal to shoot towards in normalizing a routine for consistency.   As soon as I can get that down, I would love to have another pizza party and get your expert opinion.   

The pies were really that good.  I am curious as to why you think I might be disappointed with a WFO.

My main complaint (if there is one) with the MBE is that the main heat source is concentrated at the back end so only about 1/3 of the rim is exposed to that high heat at any given time.  The first 1/3 gets a nice big oven spring and I'll usually turn at about the 45 sec mark.  By the time the last 1/3 of the rim makes it to the back, the rim has somewhat set already and it doesn't get as much of an oven spring compared to the rest.   I'm hoping that a WFO would correct that but it's really not that big of deal for me I guess.  My next step is to work away from the 4 hour ferment and do more of a 10-12 hour and then 24 hour again trying to achieve the same or similar results. 

I wanted to make a mention about the bread.  It too was very good.  This is also the first time that I was able to get a truely shattering and thin crust on a bread.  I believe this thinness to be due to the lower protein content of the caputo 00 flour.  I gave 1/2 of this boule to my parents who had stopped by to say hello.  I had a thick slice this morning and my 4 yo ate the last of it for breakast.  It went by too quickly.

I snapped a quick shot of a slice this morning.

Chau

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2010, 07:10:05 PM »
I am curious as to why you think I might be disappointed with a WFO.

Perhaps any improvements would be small; the pies coming out of your MBE look beautiful. Heat is decidedly not evenly distributed in a WFO and the closer the pie is to the fire, the more extreme is this imbalance. But I was just kidding you about not getting a WFO. They'll have to pry your peel out of your cold, dead hands before you will give yours up once you get one. 
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Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2010, 08:40:12 PM »
Mark if you want to give this a try, the idea is to mix everthing EXCEPT the IDY in.  Let the dough bulk rise for 2 hours or so.  This gives the 30% or more starter to work and this is what adds the starter flavor.  After the bulk (and hopefully you've underkneaded), fold in the IDY (whatever amount you deem appropriate for the desire proof time) and that provides the lift.   This concept was borrowed from Jeff Verasano's page of using starter for flavor and commercial yeast of lift, but I have just taken it to the extreme to make an emergency dough.  These were truely 2 of my best pies made in under 4 hours.

Good luck,
Chau

Thanks for the expanded instructions Chau, much appreciated!

I just got around to activating the Ischia starter that Norma sent me a while back.  It's nice and active now, so I'll feed it late tonite and hopefully it'll be ready in the morning.  I'll try a batch for a 24 hour proof since the temps here in FL are MUCH cooler than normal, I can take advantage :)

Mark


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2010, 09:15:12 PM »
Thank you for the feedback Bill.  I was wondering how much more I could push the limits but I'm sure there is always room.   I was also suspecting that WFO's have their own peculiarlarities and that it would take some time to learn the ins and outs of any particular one.  Having tweaked the MBE and learning how to bake well in it, it definitely is somewhat of an "easy" button.  Quick warm up and good results.  The only other downside is that I'm really limited to a 2.5m bake.  I guess that is okay since I'm liking the results.  I'm not really sure I would fall heads over heels for a 1min bake but I'm keeping an open mind.


Mark, what % are you planning to use for a 24h room temp ferment and what is your room temp?

Chau

Offline norma427

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2010, 11:15:45 PM »

I just got around to activating the Ischia starter that Norma sent me a while back.  It's nice and active now, so I'll feed it late tonite and hopefully it'll be ready in the morning.  I'll try a batch for a 24 hour proof since the temps here in FL are MUCH cooler than normal, I can take advantage :)

Mark

Mark,

I hope your Ischia starter works well for you whether you make pizza or bread with it.  :)  Chau also has a sibling of your starter, so it will be interesting to see if you both achieve the same results. 

I also believe great bread can lead to great pizza. 

Norma
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Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2010, 10:23:00 AM »
Norma, thanks again!!!  It took 2-3 feedings on 12-hour intervals starting from the dried state you sent but it's fully active now.  Tiny amount dropped in water floats, and that's the indicator I've been using for readiness lately....after I finish this freshly pulled machiato, I'll stumble back to the kitchen and start the mix  :chef:

Mark, what % are you planning to use for a 24h room temp ferment and what is your room temp?

Chau

Currently 73 but outside is a bit cooler and I can take advantage of that and I was thinking in the 10% range for the starter.  I just did one the other day based on that amount and it worked out pretty well.  These ratios are your puppy, what do you think?  And thanks as always :)

Mark

Offline norma427

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2010, 10:33:06 AM »
Norma, thanks again!!!  It took 2-3 feedings on 12-hour intervals starting from the dried state you sent but it's fully active now.  Tiny amount dropped in water floats, and that's the indicator I've been using for readiness lately....after I finish this freshly pulled machiato, I'll stumble back to the kitchen and start the mix  :chef:

Mark

Mark,

Good to hear you got your starter fully activated.  :) Your freshly pulled  machiato sounds great, too.  I didnít get any espresso machine at home as of this date.

Best of luck to you and Chau!   :chef: :chef: I have awhile to go before I can get results like Chau does. He has become a master of different doughs.  :chef:

Norma
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Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2010, 11:03:27 AM »
He definitely blazes a trail that makes it easier for people like me to reach goals quicker.

Sorry to hear about the espresso machine but I'll make you a deal....when I move up to a new machine, we'll make a great deal for what I have now :)  You'll never go back once you start making your own!

I'm not sure that I want to start recreating Neo pies, but I want to leverage what Chau has done to see if I can improve my crust-texture and get a little closer to what I'm actually trying to achieve.

Offline norma427

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2010, 11:12:58 AM »
He definitely blazes a trail that makes it easier for people like me to reach goals quicker.

Sorry to hear about the espresso machine but I'll make you a deal....when I move up to a new machine, we'll make a great deal for what I have now :)  You'll never go back once you start making your own!

I'm not sure that I want to start recreating Neo pies, but I want to leverage what Chau has done to see if I can improve my crust-texture and get a little closer to what I'm actually trying to achieve.

Mark,

I agree, Chau does blaze the trail for others.  He does bring Kung Foolery to pizza making!  :)

Sounds great to me, if you ever move up to another espresso machine. 

You will get to want you want to achieve with Chauís help and experimenting.  :)

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2010, 11:45:56 AM »
Thank you for the kind words Mark and Norma.  It's much appreciated.  Mark sorry I couldn't get to your question earlier.

In my kitchen at 73F, 10% starter wouldn't make it 24h.  12 hours maybe 14, but yeast seemingly works more efficient here.   I would probably be able to squeeze 24 hour out of 5%, but you may want to try 7-8% for 24h.   Also if 10% has worked well before, I'm sure it will work great again.   Just need to watch the dough periodically.   

Good luck, and I would love to hear about your results.  Your pies are looking really great also.  You've definitely have made great strides Mark.   

Chau
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 02:32:48 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2010, 02:41:33 PM »
Thanks Chau, I appreciate that!  With a little luck and all the help here, I may actually start hitting the magical combination of a crispy exterior with a moist and chewy interior ... :)

As for the dough, I'll keep a close eye...who knows, I may be making a pie at midnight tonite :)  If I pace the moonshine, I should be ok :)

Mark


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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2010, 05:11:20 PM »
Chau,
 
You inspired me to try something new to me.  I had a 6 day old pizza dough ball sitting in the fridge (KASL, 61% hydration, .2% IDY, 2% salt). So I let it come to room temp, stretched and folded it into a loaf a la the Tartine book let it rise for a few hours and baked it in the combo cooker.  It only took 30 minutes.  It is only 315g.  The little thing did the singing thing too ;D  No crumb shot yet.

Your pies look wonderful......

Paul
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 10:54:35 PM by parallei »

Pizza01

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2010, 07:37:35 AM »
chau your work here is amazing! your bread look amazing and your pies also. what kind of oven are you using? not home oven?...right?
parallei your bread looks amazing also.
this thread teachs so many thing.
my wife said to me every pie i make this dough can make great bread and now i read it here.
which remind me that i tried from once and a while, but now i am having an urge to make bread   :D
your are right with many things and the one thing i am agreeing with you the most is there is no reason we cant make pizza like the pro's.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 07:39:47 AM by msheetrit »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2010, 12:22:04 PM »
Chau,
 
You inspired me to try something new to me.  I had a 6 day old pizza dough ball sitting in the fridge (KASL, 61% hydration, .2% IDY, 2% salt). So I let it come to room temp, stretched and folded it into a loaf a la the Tartine book let it rise for a few hours and baked it in the combo cooker.  It only took 30 minutes.  It is only 315g.  The little thing did the singing thing too ;D  No crumb shot yet.

Your pies look wonderful......

Paul

Thanks Paul, looks like you got a great loaf out of that pizza dough.  By the looks of it, I bet the pizza was pretty good too.   The cool thing about doing these little tests is that we can learn to free ourselves (somewhat) from a specific recipe or technique.    You can get a nearly identical bread crumb without doing the turns as long as enough gluten has been developed through kneading and the final shaping.   How cool is that? 

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2010, 12:30:21 PM »
chau your work here is amazing! your bread look amazing and your pies also. what kind of oven are you using? not home oven?...right?
parallei your bread looks amazing also.
this thread teachs so many thing.
my wife said to me every pie i make this dough can make great bread and now i read it here.
which remind me that i tried from once and a while, but now i am having an urge to make bread   :D
your are right with many things and the one thing i am agreeing with you the most is there is no reason we cant make pizza like the pro's.



Thanks Micheal.  You are correct,  I use mostly my MBE (Mini Black Egg) for baking NY-elite style pizzas, and my home oven for making some NY style, deep dish, and breads.   I have also used my home oven to make NP style pizzas with limited success.   

You can read more about my MBE here and see many more pictures of the progression my pies.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11126.0.html  

The idea of the MBE came from member Villa Roma (formerly known as Ronbro).  There is also a much longer thread with lots of good information called the LBE (little black egg).   
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4753.0.html

Micheal, it sounds like you have a smart wife.  You should listen to her more often.   :-D  JK, I need to listen to mine more often as well. 

Another funny thing, is that I agree with you about me being right about many things.   :-D  >:D  I kid! I kid!

Chau

Offline norma427

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2010, 01:06:12 PM »
Chau,

I donít know if you remember or not, but I did make bread out of my Ischia Starter pizza dough at:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11763.msg108975.html#msg108975

I have also used my preferment Lehmann dough to make many bread related products. (like buns, bread sticks, muffins, and others)

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2010, 01:42:12 PM »
Chau,

I donít know if you remember or not, but I did make bread out of my Ischia Starter pizza dough at:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11763.msg108975.html#msg108975

I have also used my preferment Lehmann dough to make many bread related products. (like buns, bread sticks, muffins, and others)

Norma

Yes I do remember Norma.  I even remember the waffle pizza. :-D   My original intention of starting this thread was not to determine if bread can be made out of pizza dough.  Of course it can and has been done numerous times by several members including yourself.   

My original intent was to show the opposite.  Can we perfect our pizza dough by learning how to perfect our bread.   I find that in learning how to make pizza dough, just about all of us (including myself) have gotten sideline with recipes, techniques, and varying baking apparatus.   

IMO, I feel that our focus has been misplaced.   I truely believe that the focus should be on perfecting desired textures.  If we first focus our efforts on learning about gluten development, dough strength, fermentation, and baking conditions that optimize oven spring, we can then improve our pizza dough/crusts and take it beyond to the next level.  And what better way to do that than by learning how to make bread.   Bread is the crust alone, unencumbered by the sauce and cheese.   Surely both you and I can make pizza dough with one hand tied behind our backs, but would it be something worthy of praise?  Something to stand the test of time?  Something that shall be undeniable in the opinions of the greats!  Something to bring them to tears of joy!  :-D This is my intention for this thread. 

Chau
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 01:52:07 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2010, 01:55:54 PM »
Chau,

I can understand now why you started this thread.  I believe if you also have a good understanding of how to make different breads, it also leads to better pizzamaking skills.  If you read any of Professor Raymond Calvelís or Didier Rosadaís writings, they always say "To grow and excel, bakers must not only learn 'what' to do, but understand the 'hows' and 'whys' of what they're doing." and they were bread makers.

I donít know how many of any forum members pizza formulas will stand the time.  There are so many types of pizzas, just like bread.  It is all in the learning process.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2010, 02:15:26 PM »
Chau,

Are you limiting you discussion to making the dough by hand? And are you also limiting your discussion to artisan types of doughs?

Peter