Author Topic: Can great bread lead to great pizza?  (Read 3235 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2011, 08:54:14 AM »
thanks chau. today i plan to make my own starters, i know you said for start that you recomend to stick for now just with the commercial yeast, but i want to learn i want to know what it taste like. i have to learn!
so i will do that acording to that http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/53832/how_to_make_sourdough_starter_pg2.html?cat=22
but i still dont know how to use them. i searched you tube on making sourdough, starters and so...
and i havent figure it out yet, i guess i will need digital scale. or is there another way ?
it will go ok, although  i havent succeed making bread at all with yeast. but i know it will go ok becauce that i want and like it happened in pizza nothing will stop me!

It makes me happy to hear that you are forging forward with the starters.   I also started out using starters right away and I turned out okay.  :-D  Although it does add another level of complexity, It's really not that difficult to make, keep, and use.  The tartine book will help with that.  Again, there is also a lot of info on this forum and on the net about starters.  I can also give some advice on how I use starters.  As with pizza/bread making, there are many ways of handling starters.

I would highly recommend a digital scale.  You can find some for as little as $20 US.  Of course you can spend a lot more as well.   But to answer your question, no you don't absolutely have to have a digital scale for a starter.  When feeding it with 50/50 water and flour you can approximate the weight.  You can take 2 same cups/bowls add approximately the same weight of flour and water to each.  You can approximate the weight by feel and add that to the starter to feed it.  After several times you can just add water and flour freely and stir to the approximate thickness of the batter or approximate consistency.  Best way is using a scale though. 

Keep at it, you are making fast improvements. 

Chau
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 07:43:16 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2011, 08:57:34 AM »
Chau,those are incredible! Even if you did not achieve the exact goal you were aiming for,its way better than 99% of the bread I can buy from my local stores here in Ky.I grew up on fantastic bread in NY state and all the pics of yours are identical in color,shape and etc.You simply keep amazing me all the time here.
 :)



Thank you Bill, I'll keep at it.  I'd like to learn how to make a variety of different breads with different crumb structures.  I think it will definitely help me understand  more different types of pizzas and dough management regimens. 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 07:44:00 AM by Jackie Tran »

Pizza01

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2011, 09:01:01 AM »
i will do that, and also buy a digital scale but that is a good way to do with out the scale i havent tought about it. and i realy can use those tip about start using starters. thanks.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2011, 09:13:02 AM »
I made another good loaf using 70% 00 flour & 30% HG.  This particular loaf I used 3% Ischia starter and fermented for 23hours at room temp 75F.  I pretty much treated it like one of my pizza doughs.  This dough is 66% HR, no oil or sugar.   It was mixed in the Bosch for about 10m on speed 1.  Into the fermenting container.  I only did 2 folds in the morning and it was later shaped prior to baking (no preshaping). 

I was stuck at work so I couldnt monitor it in person really closely otherwise I would have baked it a bit sooner.  I started the dough the day before at 430p and baked it the next day at 330p.  I let it bulk overnight and assess (feel the dough) in the moring before work and do a few folds.  Then let it proof up until baking.  An hour before baking, I shaped the loaf.  I'll show a picture of how I didn't allow enough time for the dough to "set" and how the bread almost separated at the seams.  

This bread had a rather tangy taste to it.  Sourdough lovers would enjoy it.   It went great with a cup of New England clam chowder soup.  

« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 09:18:54 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2011, 07:43:02 PM »
when you say the amount of water in the dough 79%, thats just water? with out considering the starters?

When I say that the effective hydration ratio is 79%, that means that I have calculated the starter in to get that number.  HR without starter is around 77% and starter adds about 2% or more depending on how much starter you use.

To calculate this, I normally feed my starters equal weight of flour and water so that is a 100% hydrated starter.   Then if I add 50gm of starter, I just split that into 2 and add 25gm to the flour side and 25gm to the water side and recalculate to get my new hydration ratio. 

thanks chau.
bakery used starters ? or is possible to make good bread without using starters?

oooohhhh I don't know if bakeries use starters or not.  I think some do but the majority probably just uses cake yeast or commercial yeast but that is just my guess.   Is it possible to make good bread without starters?  Hmmmm that is a tough question.  Depends on how you define good.  Some will say yes and some will say no.   I am in the YES camp.   Starters add a complexity of flavor and textures that are different from commercial yeast.  Usually (as I understand it) commercial yeast provides great lifting power but very little flavor if any at all, unless you cold ferment it for 3-4 days.  I have been able to make a sourdough this way before.  I would imagine that if you let a dough with IDY or ADY ferment at room temps long enough you can also make a sourdough bread but I haven't tried this yet. 

For me flavor in the bread comes from fermentation byproducts, salt, sugar, oils, milk, the flour itself, and whatever else you add into the dough.   So yeast (particularly starters) is only one flavor component.   Texture is also a big factor for me that adds flavor to bread or pizza crust and crumb.   I know that sounds odd but adding a lot of air into a light and slightly crispy & chewy crust gives the idea of a better flavor crust for me.

It's like wine drinkers swirling the wine and then sipping it trying to add air into the wine.  It makes it taste different? better?  I don't know for sure as I'm not a wine drinker myself. 

But instead of ADY/IDY versus starters, I like to use both in the same dough.  I like to make same day doughs that have 20-30% starters for flavor and then add in a bit of IDY for the extra lift.

Hope that helps
Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2011, 07:46:31 PM »
Made the lightest loaf today messing around with high hydration breads.  I think this will help me make better pizza.

Used 75/27 (AT HG/00) flour, 30% camaldoli starter, effective hydration ratio of 84% (including starter),
3% salt, 1% IDY.   Also used a combination of mixing in the bosch and doing some hand turns for buidling strength into the dough.  This loaf was baked free form with a bit of hot water added to a hot pan below for steam.

Dough was very airy and bubbly after the proof.   The baked loaf felt very light in hand compared to it's size.  The crumb so soft and ever so airy.  The crust was shattering.  I have been using a technique from member Bobino.   Let the loaf cool down a bit after the bake about 30m or so, then with the oven off and still warm, I place the loaf back in for about 10m or so.This makes the crust ever so crunchy and crispy.  I really like this technique a lot and use it for every loaf.  Thanks Bob!

Chau
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 07:38:16 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2011, 08:57:49 PM »
I have been using a technique from member Bobino.   Let the loaf cool down a bit after the bake about 30m or so, then with the oven off and still warm, I place the loaf back in for about 10m or so.  This makes the crust ever so crunchy and crispy.  I really like this technique a lot and use it for every loaf.  Thanks Bob!

Chau

Those are some great looking slices!  I have a quad of baguettes in cold storage now and think I'll do this with 'em tomorrow....it's also nice to have Bob right around the corner :)

Mark

Offline Essen1

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #82 on: January 08, 2011, 10:04:03 PM »
Looks like a bread my Great-Grandma used to make when I was a little kid...a German bread called "Stuten". The commercial version didn't have the big holes but my GGma's bread did.

Good job, Chau. The pics bring back old memories.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #83 on: January 09, 2011, 06:47:23 AM »
Chau - I have noticed you started using small amounts of IDY to compliment your 30% starter. Does this serve a workflow purpose, or just give you some added spring and rise for a short ferment?

It is dizzying trying to keep up with your bread making advances!

John


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #84 on: January 09, 2011, 10:19:49 AM »
Mike it's always interesting to me how some foods can really take us back to fond childhood memories.  I'm sure your GGM was a great cook.  Nothing quite like great home cooking.   I often wish I had talented cooks around me so I can pick their brains.  :-D

Chau - I have noticed you started using small amounts of IDY to compliment your 30% starter. Does this serve a workflow purpose, or just give you some added spring and rise for a short ferment?

It is dizzying trying to keep up with your bread making advances!

John

John this idea came about after a series of bread experiments.  I was letting the dough overproof a bit in order to maximize aeration of the dough, but noticed that overfermentation of doughs with 20-30% starters gave me undesireable effects.  It made the crumb more dense and more sourdough like both in texture and taste.  A little sourdough is desireable for me, but a lot is not.   I then recalled that Verasano added a bit of IDY for extra lift in his 3 day cold fermented doughs made with starter and decided to try differing amounts of IDY to get the added lift.  This worked out well b/c it allowed me ferment natural leavened doughs towards the end of fermentation without the side effects of dense and sour crumb.    So in essence, I'm using IDY to balance out the taste and texture of the starter capitalizing on the idea that it competes with the starter for food sources. 

For the above bread, I used 1% IDY along with 30% starter.  This is way too much yeast, but wanted to see the leavening effects of a really high yeasted dough.  The resulting dough had reached near maximal fermentation in 4 hours at room temps of ~75F.  I think for future purposes I would use 0.5% IDY or even less.  I was just desparate to get those big holes thus the high amount of yeast. 

Despite the 1% IDY and 30% starter, the bread had a good flavor and surprisingly did not smell or tasted yeasty at all.   I think I'm learning that fermentation is only part of the equation to what I seek.  High hydration and proper gluten development are the other important players as well. 

Chau 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 10:21:46 AM by Jackie Tran »

Pizza01

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #85 on: January 09, 2011, 12:33:46 PM »
here is a litel present for your pizza-bread sour d' (dreams)  ;D

bread with big holes filled with your pizza's

special recipe baked in my photoshop. ;)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 12:47:13 PM by msheetrit »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #86 on: January 09, 2011, 12:53:10 PM »
Chau - Thanks very much for the in-depth explanation. Very informative.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #87 on: January 09, 2011, 01:14:25 PM »
here is a litel present for your pizza-bread sour d' (dreams)  ;D

bread with big holes filled with your pizza's

special recipe baked in my photoshop. ;)


Micheal I need to get me a photoshop oven like that!  :-D I bet that pizza bread would sell well in Isreal.  ;D

Chau - Thanks very much for the in-depth explanation. Very informative.

John

Your welcome John.   ;)

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #88 on: January 09, 2011, 01:17:46 PM »
Chau,

Just wanted to pass along a HUGE thanks!!!!

I've been messing around with your recipe of "high" percentage starter combined with some IDY and fermented/proofed at "room temp"...it's been yielding pretty good results for me so far but I need to dial in the IDY for my temps and desired time.  I've cooked these twice now and have turned out a crispy exterior with a moist and chewy interior.  My wife even commented that it was chewy without being "bready."

I balled up 2, 350g doughs last night at midnight and stashed them in the cold garage, 60-65 degrees.  I baked the first one off at noon, but I think most people might consider close to being over-proofed.  I'll try and take pics of the second pie :)  I used 30% Ischia with a bit less than .5% IDY (1/2t), 65% hydration, 2.5% salt with AT flour.

I dissolved the salt in the slightly above room temp water then dissolved the starter and added 3/4 of the flour, then let rest for 20-25 minutes.  Added the remaining flour and hand kneaded for 2-3 minutes, then let rest for 5 minutes.  Kneaded again for 1 minute then divided and folded into balls.  Placed in lightly oiled plastic wrap lined glass bowls and covered with lightly oiled plastic wrap.

I need to figure out the temp control for my normal year-round temps but once I have that nailed, this is most likely going to be my go-to recipe  :chef:

Mark

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #89 on: January 09, 2011, 01:24:38 PM »
Good to hear Mark.  Looking forward to your pictures.   ;D

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #90 on: January 09, 2011, 02:14:16 PM »
Here's a couple of shots of 2-hour old slices....

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #91 on: January 09, 2011, 03:00:13 PM »
Ok, here's a few shots of the 2nd pie...12 hours at 65, followed by 3 hours at 74 :)


Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2011, 03:02:55 PM »
2 more, 1 to come :)

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2011, 03:07:34 PM »
last one...thanks again Chau, these are great pies!!!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2011, 03:24:29 PM »
Mark, those are indeed good looking pies.  Congrats - I'm glad you are happy with these same day pies using starter and IDY as well.  I'm still always experimenting so I haven't settled on a favorite technique.  Just wanting to see the boundaries of what is possible and not.  Playing by my own rules is much more fun.   :-D  lol .  No doubt, in the end, I will usually opt for convenience with good results. 

I took this quote from the Tartine bread thread.

My dream loaf would be fairly big holes like you  (Mike) are getting throughout, light airy crumb, very little sour taste, and a thin shattering crust.  Is that too much to ask for?   I'm still working towards that. 

Chau

I'm gonna have to say that I either achieved that goal or very very close to it.   Today I cut a few more slices of that bread from yesterday and was happy it was still soft on the inside.   Apparently that high % of IDY did not overtake the starter otherwise I would be looking at a much more dry crumb today (  I think).   Anywho, these retoasted very well and gave me that light shatter of a crust.   I made a Jimmy John's style ham sandwich which was just awesome. 

Here's a few more crumb shots.


Chau

Pizza01

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2011, 05:00:48 PM »
well done mark! i love to taste a slice from that pie.
chau your bread is amazing theres no doubt about it. your pies are from sourdough?
 

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2011, 08:55:55 PM »
Thanks guys, appreciate it!

Chau, it's tough for me to experiment too much just due to time and amount of pizza I can eat :D  For me, when it comes to recipes, once I have something "nailed down" then it goes in the card file and it's a go-to recipe from then on out.  I'm not saying I've reached pizza making perfection, far from it, but for me this recipe/technique has really pegged the crust I've been after.

I'm probably still going to mess around a bit with starter/IDY levels so I can adjust time for my temps and when I want to use it but for now, I know I can pull this card out and blow away just about anything else most restaurants/people produce :)

It's funny...I went back to Anthony's Coal Fired and surprised to find the crust I had liked to be nothing close to what I actually thought it was....after making my own for so long and then having theirs, I was really underwhelmed!

Mark

and BTW, the basil from a small plant I've been nursing but has yielded 5 clippings already  :chef:

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2011, 11:37:39 PM »
Mark, I'm glad you have been able to find a good goto recipe and technique.   I'll stop experimenting the day I can no longer improve on my best efforts. 

Out of curiosity, which recipe and technique did you settle on?  I have posted numerous ones and was wondering which variation you liked.  If you don't mind doing a semi detailed post, I'm sure others would appreciate the post who may want to try and replicate your results. 

Chau

On a side note:  I'm happy to hear your basil is still doing well.  I just started growing Napoletan Basil and other herbs indoors.  It's been a week and they have sprouted!  In the middle of winter here!   ;D  I also found some seeds from the ganji dante oregano that I bought from member Thezaman.   I threw those seeds into some starter plugs and I believe they have just sprouted as well.  It will be extremely cool if I could actually grow that oregano. 

« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 01:09:37 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #98 on: January 13, 2011, 01:45:09 AM »
Been experiencing some missed bakes lately due to using an older starter not at it's peak and other variables so I decided to try and replicate one of my favorite pies in reply #21 of this thread (75/25 00/hg).  Also made a mistake in reply #21.  30% of a 50/50 starter bumps up the HR ~5%, not 2%. 

I used a nearly identical recipe but in keeping with the theme of this thread I changed up the mixing time and speeds.   I basically cut the mixing times by half and increase the mixing speed 2-3x.  Made 2 very good eating pies.  They were as light and as good as the original. 

Again, this experiment confirms the idea that gluten strength can be achieve in a different ways.

Made 2 margheritas: 1 with home made mozz and the 2nd one with ambrosi buffala.  Hard to say which pie was better if just comparing the cheese.  Both were great in their own right.  These were 4 hour pies start to bake.  Next step is to replicate this crumb and texture in a 12-24hour time frame.

First up is the pie with home made mozz from curd.   Thank you Bob! ;)

2nd pie is with buffala mozz. 

« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 08:22:21 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Can great bread lead to great pizza?
« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2011, 06:03:41 PM »
Out of curiosity, which recipe and technique did you settle on?  I have posted numerous ones and was wondering which variation you liked.  If you don't mind doing a semi detailed post, I'm sure others would appreciate the post who may want to try and replicate your results. 

Chau

Absolutely will!  I've been out of town all week but will do so over the games....missed out on that cheese but I'm hoping to be around for the next batch :)

And nice to hear about the herbs, I really like tending to mine....would like to expand a bit though, I need to look into snagging some of that oregano!

Mark


 

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