Author Topic: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro  (Read 20193 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2010, 11:44:21 AM »
Norma,

Before I ever attempted to make an emergency dough, I tried to learn as much as I could about such doughs and what to expect from them. So, as a result, I can't recall ever letting an emergency dough go past its prime and overferment. However, I believe that it is possible to overferment a dough that has a far above average amount of yeast in it, in your case almost 1.9% (IDY), which is more than double what one would ordinarily use to make an emergency dough (along with warmer water). Tom's advice to pizza operators is, in general, conservative in nature, no doubt because he does not want to tell operators to do something that produces failed or unsatisfactory results. In the case of emergency doughs, his advice is to use the emergency dough fairly promptly, and not to let it sit around too long. Typical of Tom's advice on emergency doughs is the advice given at the PMQ Think Tank forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4302&p=23372&hilit=#p23372. The advice given in the link I previously provided (the text of which also appears at http://www.pmq.com/mag/200708/lehmann.php) also gives conservative advice on the time to use the emergency dough.

Also, in my experience, different doughs can exhibit different signs of overfermentation or overproofing. Most professionals tend to work with only one type of dough, or maybe two types of dough, and, over time learn through repeated practice and experience just about everything there is to know about the doughs, including when they are ready to use. On this forum, where people make all kinds of doughs and where they often jump around from one type of dough to another, including both room temperature fermented doughs and cold fermented doughs, and using commercial and natural leavening systems in both starter and preferment quantities, it takes a lot more time to learn the behavior of the different doughs and to be able to spot the signals that tell one when to use the dough for best results and performance. That is why I think one should be careful not to try to overgeneralize on the subject.

Peter


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2010, 12:23:38 PM »
Chau, that's a little more oil than I'm used to working with, which is making the wetness/gooeyness a little hard to detect, but I would say, no, that's not overfermented.

I do use a bit of oil to oil the sides of the container but the top of the dough has no oil or bench flour on it.   It has that wet appearance I believe you were referring to. 

Thanks for the info.    As far as not being able to overferment an emergency dough.  I agree, with Norma & Peter and think that it can be done.  As Peter mention, if there is enough (or excess yeast) it seems like a dough could be overfermented even in a short amount of time.   Here is a dough made with 50%+ starter and warm proofed.  Bake about 2 hours after the dough was made.  The crumb structure has that toothy appearance.  Taste was a bit on the tang side but not too sour if I remember correctly.  Was this dough perhaps overfermented? I didn't think so, but it seem to have that toothiness in the crumb structure. 

reply #52,#53
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11015.40.html
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 10:05:45 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2010, 01:35:54 PM »
Norma,

Before I ever attempted to make an emergency dough, I tried to learn as much as I could about such doughs and what to expect from them. So, as a result, I can't recall ever letting an emergency dough go past its prime and overferment. However, I believe that it is possible to overferment a dough that has a far above average amount of yeast in it, in your case almost 1.9% (IDY), which is more than double what one would ordinarily use to make an emergency dough (along with warmer water). Tom's advice to pizza operators is, in general, conservative in nature, no doubt because he does not want to tell operators to do something that produces failed or unsatisfactory results. In the case of emergency doughs, his advice is to use the emergency dough fairly promptly, and not to let it sit around too long. Typical of Tom's advice on emergency doughs is the advice given at the PMQ Think Tank forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4302&p=23372&hilit=#p23372. The advice given in the link I previously provided (the text of which also appears at http://www.pmq.com/mag/200708/lehmann.php) also gives conservative advice on the time to use the emergency dough.

Also, in my experience, different doughs can exhibit different signs of overfermentation or overproofing. Most professionals tend to work with only one type of dough, or maybe two types of dough, and, over time learn through repeated practice and experience just about everything there is to know about the doughs, including when they are ready to use. On this forum, where people make all kinds of doughs and where they often jump around from one type of dough to another, including both room temperature fermented doughs and cold fermented doughs, and using commercial and natural leavening systems in both starter and preferment quantities, it takes a lot more time to learn the behavior of the different doughs and to be able to spot the signals that tell one when to use the dough for best results and performance. That is why I think one should be careful not to try to overgeneralize on the subject.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the links from Tom Lehmann.  I havenít made any other emergency doughs that I can recall, so my experience in seeing the signs of overfermentation is non-existent  I will watch the dough closer tomorrow. 

Norma

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2010, 10:02:34 PM »
So I tried making pizza pomodoro today. 13 x17" cookie sheet I believe.

I put it on what I  "thought" was the middle rack, at 500, but apparently it wasn't middle enough. The bottom of the pie cooked to well done in about 12 minutes, far less than the 25...but the top was still not quite done.


Offline norma427

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2010, 10:24:27 PM »
So I tried making pizza pomodoro today. 13 x17" cookie sheet I believe.

I put it on what I  "thought" was the middle rack, at 500, but apparently it wasn't middle enough. The bottom of the pie cooked to well done in about 12 minutes, far less than the 25...but the top was still not quite done.



hotsawce,

If you read Peterís post at Reply # 29 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg119953.html#msg119953  you can see that Peter thinks my dough was overfemented and that is why it took so long for my bake and for my pie to get any crust coloration. 

If you see what I answered at Reply # 32 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg119962.html#msg119962  you will see I think my yeast contributed to how long I had to ferment my dough.  I am going to try this kind of pie again tomorrow to see if there is anymore rise in the crust.  My pie came out too thin.   

I think you will have to play around with your oven set-up and see what works best for you, if you want to try this kind of pizza again.  How did your pizza turn out in terms of taste and what kind of toppings did you use?  Did your dough ferment quickly?

I think this formula will have to be experimented with a little more, to see what actually works.

Good to hear your tried out the formula.  :) 

Norma
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 10:33:09 PM by norma427 »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2010, 11:27:46 PM »
Well, it was a spur of the moment thing so it was loaded with IDY. I actually had to punch it down at room temp after an hour and a half. Was to the thickness factor you used, but it didn't seem too thin.

Flavor was fairly good...used canned tomatoes, pecorino, olive oil, and sea salt. The tomatoes I used, though, were not good. Tuttorosso in the blue can...heard good things but the Ninas I normally use blow them out of the water.

This pie has a lot of potential I think. Some more attention to the dough, better tomatoes and tweaking the cooking set up (I think i need to go up a rack) will make it shine. What thickness factor should I go for next? The hard part is stretching even in a 13 x 18 pan! Some parts were stuck to the bottom....and I oiled the pan fairly liberally (though not really excessively.

The pecorino was very, very flavorful....loved the combo. Probably a little too much tomatoes, but I think next time I'll nail it. Next time I think I'm doing a half and half, other half being marinara with oregano and garlic ( though I'm not sure when to toss the garlic on without burning it.

Definitely a winner with some work; easy and great for crowds or a quick snack, pretty good at room temp.

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2010, 11:37:44 PM »
In my opinion, it is possible to overferment a dough in 6 hrs.  This dough had a lot of IDY added, and even though this dough should have been ready to baked into a pizza much sooner, I believe I did overferment the dough by the feel of the dough when opening it.  There were many bubbles in the dough and when I picked it up to open by hand, there were many honeycombs in the dough.  I almost created holes in the dough when opening it. I know the dough doesn't look like it was overfermented.  I had no visual indicators that the dough in this thread was overfermented, until I started to open the dough.

Norma, I think it's possible we might be have different definitions for overfermentation.  A dough with an excessive number of bubbles/honeycomb structure is not overfermented. An excess of bubbles in a young dough is a completely reversible phenomenon.  Deflated dough looks like it's been ravaged, but, trust me, it's barely damaged.  Extreme quantities of yeast generate lots of volume/CO2, but CO2 doesn't inflict all that much damage on gluten. All the flours that are used for pizza (AP through 14%) can handle any volumetric expansion/deflation/CO2 that typical quantities of   yeast (up to 3%) can throw at it during a 6 hour time frame. With the higher protein flours we work with, excessive volume/bubbles can overwork the gluten a bit, but they'll never do noticeable damage. One punch down later, and, presto, the gluten is back in business. It is my firm belief that overfermentation involves only that damage that is irreversible.  If the damage can be reversed, it's not overfermentation. Yeast activity only produces one type of irreversible damage- the production of alcohol. Alcohol is a long term byproduct. No matter how extreme one is about adding yeast to dough, it will never generate that much alcohol in 6 hours.  It's a physical impossibility.

If one wanted to get caught up in semantics, technically speaking, fermentation is defined as producing alcohol, and yeast does create alcohol, so one could say overfermentation translates into too much alcohol.  In bread, though, we know overfermentation has a different meaning. By the time alcohol reaches a sufficient quantity to impact flavor negatively, the protease has already done it's damage. Because of the accelerated enzyme atrophy clock, CO2/alcohol production/yeast activity are trivial in the fermentation equation. For years bakers have looked at rapidly expanding doughs and incorrectly assumed that deflated dough marked substantial damage/impact both to the gluten and the residual sugar, when, in reality, neither is really affected. Yeast certainly looks like it's doing a lot, but it's all just a lot of hot air, I mean a lot of  hot CO2 :D  Enzymes are the bad mama jamas, and in home doughs, they work slowly.  Without enzyme supplementation, you cannot significantly speed up the clock of enzyme destruction.  Cold fermentation only gives enzymes a slight edge. Discernible enzyme atrophy will always take longer than 6 hours. Enzyme atrophy is a marathon, never a sprint.

Put another way, long before the alcohol content in a dough becomes impalatable, the gluten will have been atrophied by enzymes and begin to lose it's structure. Protease is the gluten killer. Protease is the overfermentor. There's not a home made dough on this planet with enough protease to do noticeable damage in 6 hours. Not a one. If a 6 hour dough rises so much that it begins to deflate/fall, all you have to do is punch it down and the gluten will have strength/air holding capacity again.  If you do something incredibly extreme like kneading a dough for hours or  punching it down/re-balling it every few minutes, sure, you'll damage the gluten and it'll get toothy/knobby, but gluten overmanipulation and overfermentation are not the same.

Summing up, overfermentation, imo, is:

Gluten atrophy
Starch atrophy (excess of sugar)
Abundance of alcohol

Overfermentation is not:

Too much volume/deflation
Sugar depletion (can't happen)
Overkneading

And gluten atrophy/starch atrophy/discernible alcohol cannot occur in 6 hours with the types of flour/levels of yeast we use.

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2010, 11:46:59 PM »
Here is a dough made with 50%+ starter and warm proofed.  Bake about 2 hours after the dough was made.  The crumb structure has that toothy appearance.  Taste was a bit on the tang side but not too sour if I remember correctly.  Was this dough perhaps overfermented? I didn't think so, but it seem to have that toothiness in the crumb structure. 

reply #52,#53
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11015.40.html

Chau, I took the term 'toothy' from you, but I think somewhere along the way, our definitions might have parted ways  ;D

The rim in reply #52 is strong, smooth and intact and shows absolutely no signs of gluten degradation/bumps/toothiness.  Here's an example of what I believe to be toothiness:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10514.msg93760.html#msg93760

Another indicator that usually accompanies toothiness/overfermentation is a translucent quality on the tops of the bumps where the gluten has thinned out.  I'm not seeing too much in this particular example, so the overfermentation isn't extreme, but it's still a bit toothy none the less.

Offline norma427

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #58 on: December 14, 2010, 06:13:53 AM »
Well, it was a spur of the moment thing so it was loaded with IDY. I actually had to punch it down at room temp after an hour and a half. Was to the thickness factor you used, but it didn't seem too thin.

Flavor was fairly good...used canned tomatoes, pecorino, olive oil, and sea salt. The tomatoes I used, though, were not good. Tuttorosso in the blue can...heard good things but the Ninas I normally use blow them out of the water.

This pie has a lot of potential I think. Some more attention to the dough, better tomatoes and tweaking the cooking set up (I think i need to go up a rack) will make it shine. What thickness factor should I go for next? The hard part is stretching even in a 13 x 18 pan! Some parts were stuck to the bottom....and I oiled the pan fairly liberally (though not really excessively.

The pecorino was very, very flavorful....loved the combo. Probably a little too much tomatoes, but I think next time I'll nail it. Next time I think I'm doing a half and half, other half being marinara with oregano and garlic ( though I'm not sure when to toss the garlic on without burning it.

Definitely a winner with some work; easy and great for crowds or a quick snack, pretty good at room temp.

hotsawce,

The dough was made to be a ďshort doughĒ, meaning it was made to be made quickly.  I think the pie also has potential, if someone likes fairly thin pie, and want to make them in one day. 

I donít know about thickness factor as of today.  My dough didnít rise enough while in the oven, so I will have to do more experiments. 

Your choice of toppings sound good.  I think the taste of the toppings is what makes this kind of pie a winner, but with enough tweaking, maybe there can also be a good taste in the crust.  The slice I had at Sullivan St. Bakery, even eaten cold was really good.

Thanks for going into detail about what you did.  :)

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2010, 06:29:02 AM »
Norma, I think it's possible we might be have different definitions for overfermentation.  A dough with an excessive number of bubbles/honeycomb structure is not overfermented. An excess of bubbles in a young dough is a completely reversible phenomenon.  Deflated dough looks like it's been ravaged, but, trust me, it's barely damaged.  Extreme quantities of yeast generate lots of volume/CO2, but CO2 doesn't inflict all that much damage on gluten. All the flours that are used for pizza (AP through 14%) can handle any volumetric expansion/deflation/CO2 that typical quantities of   yeast (up to 3%) can throw at it during a 6 hour time frame. With the higher protein flours we work with, excessive volume/bubbles can overwork the gluten a bit, but they'll never do noticeable damage. One punch down later, and, presto, the gluten is back in business. It is my firm belief that overfermentation involves only that damage that is irreversible.  If the damage can be reversed, it's not overfermentation. Yeast activity only produces one type of irreversible damage- the production of alcohol. Alcohol is a long term byproduct. No matter how extreme one is about adding yeast to dough, it will never generate that much alcohol in 6 hours.  It's a physical impossibility.

If one wanted to get caught up in semantics, technically speaking, fermentation is defined as producing alcohol, and yeast does create alcohol, so one could say overfermentation translates into too much alcohol.  In bread, though, we know overfermentation has a different meaning. By the time alcohol reaches a sufficient quantity to impact flavor negatively, the protease has already done it's damage. Because of the accelerated enzyme atrophy clock, CO2/alcohol production/yeast activity are trivial in the fermentation equation. For years bakers have looked at rapidly expanding doughs and incorrectly assumed that deflated dough marked substantial damage/impact both to the gluten and the residual sugar, when, in reality, neither is really affected. Yeast certainly looks like it's doing a lot, but it's all just a lot of hot air, I mean a lot of  hot CO2 :D  Enzymes are the bad mama jamas, and in home doughs, they work slowly.  Without enzyme supplementation, you cannot significantly speed up the clock of enzyme destruction.  Cold fermentation only gives enzymes a slight edge. Discernible enzyme atrophy will always take longer than 6 hours. Enzyme atrophy is a marathon, never a sprint.

Put another way, long before the alcohol content in a dough becomes impalatable, the gluten will have been atrophied by enzymes and begin to lose it's structure. Protease is the gluten killer. Protease is the overfermentor. There's not a home made dough on this planet with enough protease to do noticeable damage in 6 hours. Not a one. If a 6 hour dough rises so much that it begins to deflate/fall, all you have to do is punch it down and the gluten will have strength/air holding capacity again.  If you do something incredibly extreme like kneading a dough for hours or  punching it down/re-balling it every few minutes, sure, you'll damage the gluten and it'll get toothy/knobby, but gluten overmanipulation and overfermentation are not the same.

Summing up, overfermentation, imo, is:

Gluten atrophy
Starch atrophy (excess of sugar)
Abundance of alcohol

Overfermentation is not:

Too much volume/deflation
Sugar depletion (can't happen)
Overkneading

And gluten atrophy/starch atrophy/discernible alcohol cannot occur in 6 hours with the types of flour/levels of yeast we use.

Scott123,

Maybe we are on different pages for overfermentation of a ďshort-timeĒ dough.  I havenít made any before, so really I can't comment if I ever had overfermentation until this recent dough.  It didnít look overfermented and didnít need any punch down, but what I learned from doing experiments with long time fermented doughs, was the dough wanted to almost fall apart when opening the dough and also did feel like there were honeycombs in the dough.   That is how this recent dough felt when opening the dough.  If I wasnít careful, I would have torn this dough in different places.  I should have taken a picture of the dough after it was opened, before I placed the toppings on.  Then you could have seen what the dough looked like.  If you look on the bottom crust pictures I posted, you can see the bottom crust wasn't even in different places.

I appreciate your insight.

Norma

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #60 on: December 14, 2010, 06:34:24 AM »
Scott123,

Maybe we are on different pages for overfermentation of a ďshort-timeĒ dough.  I havenít made any before, so really I can't comment if I ever had overfermentation until this recent dough.  It didnít look overfermented and didnít need any punch down, but what I learned from doing experiments with long time fermented doughs, was the dough wanted to almost fall apart when opening the dough and also did feel like there were honeycombs in the dough.   That is how this recent dough felt when opening the dough.  If I wasnít careful, I would have torn this dough in different places.  I should have taken a picture of the dough after it was opened, before I placed the toppings on.  Then you could have seen what the dough looked like.  If you look on the bottom crust pictures I posted, you can see the bottom crust wasn't even in different places.

I appreciate your insight.

Norma

Norma, what was the knead time on this dough?

Offline norma427

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2010, 07:00:38 AM »
Norma, what was the knead time on this dough?

Scott,

This dough was made to mix by hand quickly. It took one minute to mix this dough using a spatula.  This is where I posted how I made the dough.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg119876.html#msg119876

Norma

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2010, 11:49:09 AM »
Norma, I think we found the culprit.  No knead breads all rely on the biochemical gluten formation that occurs during extended fermentation (at least 12 hours but ideally overnight) in order to develop proper gluten structure.  A six hour no knead recipe will give you something seriously gluten deficient- freakishly slack, incredibly hard to work with and with a propensity to open unevenly/tear.

I also believe that the high hydration (80%) of your typical no knead bread is important as well because it helps the dough form a homogeneous mass faster than when less water is added to the dough. Even with pre-sifted flour, a minute of mixing with a 62% hydration dough will most likely result in slightly undermixed dry and wet areas.  Undermixing is the kiss of death for structurally sound pizza skins that open without complications.

Although many no knead recipes don't state mixing times, imo, the better recipes will not only state longer than a minute, but will have you do one or two hand kneads just to make absolutely sure everything is well mixed- really well mixed. With my minimal kneading techniques, I'm constantly flirting with the threat of undermixing, so this topic is close to my heart. Hitting that perfect balance between dough that's completely homogeneous/thoroughly mixed while still not kneaded too extensively is no easy task.

Lastly, I'm seeing quite a few no knead recipes that re-ball shortly before baking.  This re-ball is just one more way in additional gluten development is added to the equation.

Without a doubt, your issue was gluten underdevelopment and had nothing to do with overfermentation.  The symptoms can be very similar, but weakened gluten from overfermentation occurs far longer down the road.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 11:53:07 AM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2010, 12:26:43 PM »
Chau, I took the term 'toothy' from you, but I think somewhere along the way, our definitions might have parted ways  ;D

 :-D That's hilarious b/c I thought  I was borrowing it from you.   This dough was overfermented at all but displayed that toothy crumb structure which  I thought I had read in a previous post somewhere that you had mentioned that it was a classic sign of overfermentation. 



The rim in reply #52 is strong, smooth and intact and shows absolutely no signs of gluten degradation/bumps/toothiness. Here's an example of what I believe to be toothiness:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10514.msg93760.html#msg93760

Scott thanks for redirecting me to my first pies posted on the forum.  They made me chuckle a bit as what I am making now is much different than that time.  My understanding of things has also vastly improve, in part thanks to your expertise.

Scott in reading more of your posts in this thread, I think  I understand what you are saying about the amount of dough expansion not necessarily correlating to overfermentation.  I have been experimenting b/t commercial yeast and naturally leaven dough and would concur.  It seems like I could proof up a dough to triple it's height using commercial yeast and the dough not display the signs of overfermenting where as this seems to not be true with a natural leavened dough. 

B/c my starters in general don't have as good leavening ability compared to commercial yeast, if I allow that dough to rise until to the same extent as an ady/idy dough, I would note a drastic difference in how the dough smells, springs up during the bake, and a drastically different crumb texture.  Not overfermented but maybe a lot closer than the ady/idy dough.    Any ideas as to what is going on in a naturally leavened dough that is so different than a commercially yeasted dough?


Another indicator that usually accompanies toothiness/overfermentation is a translucent quality on the tops of the bumps where the gluten has thinned out.  I'm not seeing too much in this particular example, so the overfermentation isn't extreme, but it's still a bit toothy none the less.

Are these the same relatively large fermentaion bubbles that tend to rise to the top in long fermented doughs?
like here...Reply #26
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12388.20.html
BTW, I am glad you are posting again.   I miss reading your imformative posts Scott. 

Chau

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2010, 03:16:18 PM »
scott123,

I re-read your posts on this subject, as supplemented by Norma's last post. Like you, I have tended to consider a dough to have overfermented when it has gone off the edge of a cliff, or is hanging by a gluten thread at the edge of the cliff. By that time, the protease enzymes have concluded their work and the dough can be wet and slack and hard to open up. I have intentionally driven some experimental doughs off the edge of the cliff just to see what the dough looked and behaved like. My experience was as you described in terms of the dough's performance except that I found that the residual sugars were too low to produce good crust coloration. I don't know if it was because the yeast had consumed most of the sugars, or if the acids and pH levels interfered with sugar extraction, but the finished crusts were light, almost white in some cases.

In retrospect, in the case of the short-time doughs that we have been discussing in this thread, I might have used the term "excessive fermentation" instead of overfermentation, but that may be a distinction without a difference. When I read what Tom Lehmann wrote on emergency doughs, I intentionally looked to see if he used the term "overfermented", or anything comparable, for the short-time doughs once they started to age. He did not. I think it is possible that he was thinking more along the terms of usability. That is, if the emergency dough were allowed to ferment too long, it would not be practical to use it as intended because of a damaged or degraded gluten matrix structure. In a home setting, rekneading or reballing the dough and letting it rest to recover might work, but that would take time and not be practical in an emergency dough situation where time is of the essence. So as not to waste an emergency dough that was not usable in the short term, Tom suggested using the dough to make skins that could be put in the cooler for use later in the day. That action would suggest that Tom did not deem the dough to be about to sustain a near-death experience where last rites would be administered.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2010, 09:27:56 PM »
I made another dough today and a pizza for this thread at market. This dough behaved a lot different.  I still donít think this formula has a high enough thickness factor, but the pie turned out well. 

Pictures below

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2010, 09:30:14 PM »
more pictures

Norma


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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2010, 09:31:41 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2010, 09:40:37 PM »
I made another dough today and a pizza for this thread at market. This dough behaved a lot different.  I still donít think this formula has a high enough thickness factor, but the pie turned out well. 

Norma,

Your pizza does look good. But why do you think that the thickness factor is too low? If you used more water, the total dough weight would increase and that would increase the thickness factor, but I have not run the numbers to be able to tell how much the thickness factor value would increase.

Out of curiosity, what is the metal of the pan you have been using?

Peter


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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2010, 11:21:55 PM »
Norma,

Your pizza does look good. But why do you think that the thickness factor is too low? If you used more water, the total dough weight would increase and that would increase the thickness factor, but I have not run the numbers to be able to tell how much the thickness factor value would increase.

Out of curiosity, what is the metal of the pan you have been using?

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for saying the pizza looked good.  The reason I said I thought the thickness factor was too low was because the slice of pizza I ate from Sullivan St. Bakery was a little thicker. When opening this dough it sure looked drier than in the video when Jim Lahey was opening the dough. This pizza was good in my opinion and even some other customers that I gave some little slices to when they bought my regular preferment Lehmann dough slices said they really liked this type of pizza.  I even gave slices to the lady that has the pasta stand at market, that just was in Italy recently, and she even really liked this pizza.  She did give me a disk with some of the pictures of pizzas in Italy and I will post them probably tomorrow or Thursday.  I donít know what is on the disk, because I havenít looked at them tonight.  She was in Italy for 10 days and ate pizza everyday.  I will post those pictures under my thread, where I tried Paulís flour.

I forgot in my last post to post a picture of what the dough ball looked like right after it was mixed.  I took so many pictures today, that the picture was in with my other pictures.

The pan I used was an old aluminum pan that I had for years, that was used to make candy apples. The pans are heavy aluminum. I have four of those pans and they do work well for baking cookies and now are also used at market to bake some of my other products. 

This pizza even had a nice crunch and a good taste in the crust.  I donít know how this pizza could have a good taste in the crust, with such a short ferment time.  I didnít post either that the finished dough temperature was 76.5 degree F and the ferment time was about 3 hrs. 20 minutes. This dough was fermented at the ambient room temperature of 67 degrees F.  The hole on top of the dough ball was where the temperature of the finished dough was taken.

Picture below

Norma
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 11:25:02 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2010, 07:29:34 AM »
Two pictures of the pizza I made yesterday after the pie cooled down, that I forgot to post.

Norma

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2010, 08:18:21 AM »
Very nice, Norma.  I would have loved to taste that.

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2010, 08:22:03 AM »
Very nice, Norma.  I would have loved to taste that.

RoadPizza,

Thanks for saying the pizza was very nice.  You also are very inventive in all your creations of dressings.  :)  You could easily make this pizza in a small amount of time.  I used KABF flour. 

Norma

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2010, 08:37:19 AM »
This pizza even had a nice crunch and a good taste in the crust.  I donít know how this pizza could have a good taste in the crust, with such a short ferment time.

Norma,

The usual contributions of taste to a finished crust are the wheaty flavor of the flour itself, the yeast, the fermentation byproducts, oil in the pan (in this case), and caramelization/denatured protein/Maillard reactions. What I believe stands out from the normal in this case, apart from the short fermentation period, is the yeast. According to Professor Calvel in his book The Taste of Bread, at page 19, the taste of yeast is discernible in a French bread when it reaches 2.5%. I am sure that he was referring to fresh yeast, which was the yeast form that most of his recipes were based on. If we assume that the corresponding levels for ADY and IDY are roughly 1.25% and 0.83%, respectively, it is quite possible that your use of almost 1.9% IDY is what you were detecting in the finished crust. It could also have been the combination of the large amount of yeast and the baked effects of the oil in the pan.

Peter

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Re: Quest for Pizza Pomodoro
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2010, 09:58:00 AM »
B/c my starters in general don't have as good leavening ability compared to commercial yeast, if I allow that dough to rise until to the same extent as an ady/idy dough, I would note a drastic difference in how the dough smells, springs up during the bake, and a drastically different crumb texture.  Not overfermented but maybe a lot closer than the ady/idy dough.    Any ideas as to what is going on in a naturally leavened dough that is so different than a commercially yeasted dough?

Chau,

One of the major effects that I noticed when I used natural leavening systems was the textural effects in the finished crumb. You could pull and tug the crumb and it would spring back when you released it. And there was a certain toothiness to the crumb that was different than crusts made from commercially leavened doughs. I think the explanation is that there are far more byproducts of fermentation with naturally leavened doughs than you will get with commercially leavened doughs, and it is these added byproducts of fermentation that affect the texture of the crumb. There are also antibiotic-type byproducts that help keep the pizza crust from staling as quickly as a normal bread. You perhaps eat your pizzas and breads long before staling can set in, but if you set one of your loaves aside sometime you might want to observe the anti-staling effect.

To the above, I might add that I observed similar textural effects using commercial yeast (IDY in my case) but it took a couple of weeks or more of cold fermentation to achieve those effects. And the effects were not as pronounced as when I used natural leavening systems. You have done a lot of work with short-term doughs using natural leavenings. Maybe you can advise Norma (or anyone else) on how she might be able to use a natural leavening system to make the Lahey short-term dough with even better results than she has gotten to date.

Peter


 

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