Quest for Pizza Pomodoro

[norma427]

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Norma

[norma427]

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Norma

[norma427]

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Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

When I watched the Lahey video again recently, he said that the dough was left at room temperature to rest for about a half hour. To me, that suggested that the half hour rest period was right after dividing and scaling a bulk dough. There is no evidence in the video that the dough balls were punched down several times. In your case, the multiple punchdowns no doubt toughened the gluten structure and reduced the dough's extensibility (increased its elasticity). It also sounds like your dough was closer to your oven than Lahey's dough and his oven. By any chance, did you decide to use warm water?

Overall, was the thicker crust and higher hydration an improvement over your last results?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

When I watched the Lahey video again recently, he said that the dough was left at room temperature to rest for about a half hour. To me, that suggested that the half hour rest period was right after dividing and scaling a bulk dough. There is no evidence in the video that the dough balls were punched down several times. In your case, the multiple punchdowns no doubt toughened the gluten structure and reduced the dough's extensibility (increased its elasticity). It also sounds like your dough was closer to your oven than Lahey's dough and his oven. By any chance, did you decide to use warm water?

Overall, was the thicker crust and higher hydration an improvement over your last results?

Peter

Peter,

I only punched down the dough one time, about after one hour, but I did have to keep putting the lid back on the container different times. I forgot to take along a bigger plastic container today, for the dough ball. This dough ball fermented for about 3  hrs.  I didn’t use warmer water today. I didn’t take the temperature of the water I used, but the finished dough temperature was 74.2. degrees F.  The temperature where the dough ball fermented was about 75 degrees F.  I can touch the side of my oven and not get burnt.  The dough ball was on top of the pizza prep refrigerator.

I did like the higher thickness factor, because it did seem about the same thickness as the real pizza I ate from Sullivan St. Bakery.

I still don’t know about the hydration though.  Do you have any other ideas of why the skin was so dry, when opening it?

I did like this pizza better today, if I could just get the skin to open easier.  I didn’t use my rolling pin at all today.

Norma

[norma427]

I forgot to post these two pictures of how the dough looked on the top and bottom, right before the bake.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I still don’t know about the hydration though.  Do you have any other ideas of why the skin was so dry, when opening it?

Norma,

Thanks for clarifying how you handled the dough. Using a bowl large enough to allow the dough to fully expand without having to touch it should solve the problem that you experienced with the dough pushing off the lid.

If I had to guess what caused the dough to dry out, I would say that it was the condition of the air in your work area where the dough was kept, especially if the area is heated. Tom Lehmann has discussed problems of this sort when the weather has changed and heating systems turn on, etc., at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2006march/lehmann.php. Maybe you can see something in that article that applied in your case. I assume you oiled the dough ball when it was put into its container. That oil might have been worked into the dough when you punched it down, leaving the surface a bit on the dry side and more prone to further drying. There is also heat that is produced by the dough as it ferments but I wouldn't think that it would be warm enough to dry out the dough, even in a closed container.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the above link to the Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machinie link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20100326065639/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2006march/lehmann.php

[norma427]

Peter,

Thank you for referencing the article from Tom Lehmann.  The only thing I could think of from that article is how dry it feels, now that the heat is on at market.  It isn’t really warm at market, but there is heat on and the outside doors keep opening all day long letting in more dry air.  Tom Lehmann said even in a matter of a few minutes the dough can dry out.  The lid on the plastic container wouldn’t stay shut, so I guess that could have also dried out his last dough.

When I went to mix the dough using a spatula and then hand kneading this dough, it still felt much lower than the hydration I used in the formula.  I don’t know what caused that, but after I took the dough ball out of the small container it was wet on the bottom, but dry on the top of the dough ball.  I didn’t oil the dough ball at all. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Can you tell me how you prepared the dough in terms of knead method, times, etc.?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Can you tell me how you prepared the dough in terms of knead method, times, etc.?

Peter

Peter,

After you posted about preparing the dough, it made me think of a couple things strange that happened with this dough, that I didn’t think about before.  I usually use Morton’s Kosher Salt when making my doughs and had put that in the expanded dough calculating tool, but for some reason, I decided to use sea salt in the formula.  Maybe because I used sea salt that had something to do with why my dough turned out the way it did.  I had put sea salt in the cool water from market.  If I had to guess, (the water jug was underneath my deck oven, and is a little over 6" off the floor on a stainless steel shelf),  the water temperature might have been about 60 degrees F.  For some reason the sea salt wouldn’t dissolve in the water.  Steve and I stirred it and even left it sit for awhile and it wouldn’t dissolve, then Steve had added the IDY to the flour and I mixed the mixture in with a big spatula for about 2 minutes. I then hand kneaded for about 3 minutes, put the dough into the small container and waited for it to rise.  After thinking over right now what else I did or didn’t do, I also forgot to add the sugar to the formula.  I was busy trying to other things.  The dough rose in about an hour to the lid of the plastic container and then I punched it down.  It was then left go until the dough was open, except for putting the lid back on different times.  After trying to open the dough, (like can be seen in the picture in the deep-dish pan), the dough was left to proof (to see if the dough would become softer) in the deep-dish pan with a inverted 16" pizza pan over the top of the dough and also two linen towels over top of that..  It was left to proof for about an hour and the dough did rise some and become softer.  The steel pan was lightly oiled. 

I hope you can understand what I did in trying to explain everything.  I now understand what might have gone wrong with this dough.  I will wait and see what you thought or if I need to explain more.

Norma[

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I don't think that using the sea salt or forgetting the sugar were responsible for the performance of your dough. Even if the sea salt wasn't entirely dissolved in the water, it should have still been distributed fairly uniformly throughout the dough. Remember that in an autolyse or in other applications, like some French bread doughs and some Neapolitan doughs, salt can be added late in the process, in dry form, without ill effect. In the case of the sugar, I am not sure that 2-3 hours fermentation time would have released enough sugar naturally to feed the yeast and to participate in the Maillard reaction, both of which require simple sugars (table sugar, or sucrose, is a complex sugar that has to be broken down into simple sugars). The sugar might have contributed to some crust coloration due to caramelization.

The reason why I asked you how you prepared the dough is because the recipe you cited at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15877/jim-lahey039s-pizza-patate-quotmy-breadquot calls for only 30 seconds to a minute of mixing. The pertinent part of the article is:

In a bowl, stir together the flour, yeast, salt and sugar. Add the water, and using a spoon, your hand, or a baker's plastic bench scraper, mix together until blended -- about a minute (Jim says 30 seconds but mine took a bit longer). You don't want to mix or knead this dough too much, or else the gluten will develop and you won't be able to shape it in the pan.

It sounds like Jim Lahey is playing off of the no-knead method but using large amounts of yeast in order to be able to make the dough very quickly.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The reason why I asked you how you prepared the dough is because the recipe you cited at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15877/jim-lahey039s-pizza-patate-quotmy-breadquot calls for only 30 seconds to a minute of mixing. The pertinent part of the article is:

In a bowl, stir together the flour, yeast, salt and sugar. Add the water, and using a spoon, your hand, or a baker's plastic bench scraper, mix together until blended -- about a minute (Jim says 30 seconds but mine took a bit longer). You don't want to mix or knead this dough too much, or else the gluten will develop and you won't be able to shape it in the pan.

It sounds like Jim Lahey is playing off of the no-knead method but using large amounts of yeast in order to be able to make the dough very quickly.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for finding the link I posted before and saying it sounds like Jim Lahey is playing off of the no-knead method but using large amounts of yeast in order to be able to make the dough very quickly.

It made me rethink the whole method and formula over, that I posted before.  Do you think I should start over again with the formula I first posted and try again?

That was a great pick-up. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Do you think I should start over again with the formula I first posted and try again?

Norma,

That is up to you. However, the only way for you to know what the recipe can do is to practice it as given and assess your results. Then, based on your results, you can decide whether changes are needed to perform better in your setting, either at home or at market, or possibly both.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

That is up to you. However, the only way for you to know what the recipe can do is to practice it as given and assess your results. Then, based on your results, you can decide whether changes are needed to perform better in your setting, either at home or at market, or possibly both.

Peter

Peter,

I will go back in my experiments with trying a pizza like the pizza I tried at Sullivan St. Bakery from my first post on this thread and using the same formula posted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg119814.html#msg119814

I want to see if I can recreate a pizza like I tried at Sullivan St. Bakery from market or even at home if someone else wants to be able to try this kind of pizza. 

Thanks for your help,

Norma

[hotsawce]

Eataly offers a similar pizza to the "sheet pie" Lahey does. The pizzas that most bread places in Italy make to offer something "extra."

I'm dying to make a pie that's half as good right now I still haven't gotten it right!

Edit: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/12/daily-slice-focaccia-at-eataly.html

[norma427]

Eataly offers a similar pizza to the "sheet pie" Lahey does. The pizzas that most bread places in Italy make to offer something "extra."

I'm dying to make a pie that's half as good right now I still haven't gotten it right!

Edit: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/12/daily-slice-focaccia-at-eataly.html

hotsawce,

I also saw the pizza at Eataly on Slice at: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/12/daily-slice-focaccia-at-eataly.html

I believe many bread bakeries in Italy also offer something like this pizza. 

I will try my another attempt next week.  Let us know how your attempts turn out.

Best of luck, 

Norma

[norma427]

I made another attempt today to make a pizza something like Jim Lahey’s pizza cavolfiore.  I upped the hydration and also the thickness factor.  This dough was ready in about 3 ½ hrs. to make a pizza from beginning to end.  The taste of the crust was good, in my opinion, but the dough is still hard to handle.  It opened easily, but when trying to stretch it, there seemed to be more honeycombs in the dough.  I don’t know what is causing the honeycombs in the dough.  I want to be able to open this dough and not have to roll it out.  I thought this pie was good.

Toby, I just wanted to let you know I was able to make a decent pizza on my thread in the Sicilian style. 

Pictures and formula below

Norma

[norma427]

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Norma

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[norma427]

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Norma