Author Topic: Pizza Raquel  (Read 192254 times)

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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #120 on: June 28, 2005, 07:07:21 PM »
Tonight marks a potential turning point in my home pizza making evolution. I have disposed of my entry - mid level KitchenAid Artisan mixer in favor of the venerable KitchenAid Professional 600 mixer. The differences between the two mixers is not circumstantial. The Professional 600 comes with a bevy of ideal pizza making features such as:
- A high performance 575 watt motor
- A direct drive all steel gear transmission
- A 6 quart capacity bowl which might just be the perfect size for my average batch size (16 - 18oz)
- A stunningly effective Powerknead spiral dough hook which replicates hand-kneading with a forceful punching and rolling action. In addition it offers a 67 point planetary mixing action which spins the beater clockwise and the shaft counterclockwise and moves the beater to 67 different points in the bowl. It is the epitomy of efficiency in my opinion
- A commercial-style bowl-lift design which is rock solid when mixing dough. My Artisan was more like a pogo stick.

I wanted to properly document the best that the Artisan had to offer as a baseline for the upcoming comparison against the Professional 600. With that said, I feel as if I have coaxed all I could out of the Artisan and truth be told it did right by me. I have no regrets about buying it but I now look forward to seeing what I can accomplish with a true pizza machine. Here are the final photographs...
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com


Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #121 on: June 28, 2005, 07:08:45 PM »
The final Pizza Raquel produced from the Artisan. A true Margherita if there ever was one...
« Last Edit: June 28, 2005, 07:12:01 PM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Offline PizzaSuperFreak

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #122 on: June 28, 2005, 08:10:41 PM »
hey pftaylor,

where do you live in florida cuz i live in florida too, and i'm wondering what time dinner is!!

- psf

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #123 on: June 29, 2005, 09:33:31 AM »
PSF,
Sleepy 'ol Tampa.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Offline Arthur

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #124 on: June 29, 2005, 10:14:20 AM »
PFT,

That truly looks amazing!!!

What do you think is the cause of such a great looking crust (i.e., the large pocket/hole, light)?

Do you think it's the a autolysing or some sort of starter or the rise time?

Arthur.

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #125 on: June 29, 2005, 01:30:29 PM »
Arthur,
I have elaborated a number of times about how robust the Raquel dough is utilizing the exact mixing and stretching steps I've detailed in this master thread. Try it and follow every single step. I literally giggle every time I make a batch of dough now since it just feels so right. Another edge that I have is my two scales; one for exact measurements and the other for heavy ingredients. The final contributory factor has to be the TEC's high temperature.
I also think the Varasano preferment adds a little something extra (for some unknown reason) above just adding flavor, but oddly enough that something extra has not revealed itself with Pizza Sophia at this point. However, I think the KitchenAid Professional 600 mixer combined with a lower hydration percentage will turn the tide there as well.

The first Caputo based batch I made with the Professional 600 felt nearly identical to my typical Raquel dough coming off the hook with the Artisan. I can't wait to make my first Professional 600 Raquel batch.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 01:42:31 PM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Offline Arthur

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #126 on: June 29, 2005, 05:02:12 PM »
PFT,

I just read the post including the recipe which I hadn't seen yet.  It's actually pretty close to my recipe I've been using for 2 years now - except I use Kosher Salt and no starter and a slightly higher hidration level.   Although I have not used a starter before and tonight I will be trying my dough with 1 autolyse period I assume that the look of your dough is mostly from the high heat.  Having cooked my pizza in both a regular oven (550) and a wood burning oven (1000 degrees) I saw such a difference in the cooked pizza dough between the two that I have to assume it's due to your grill.  As I said, I'm trying pizza tonight with the autolyse so I can report back on whether or not that gave the dough the light/airy look to it.  Like most people on this forum I have tried 100's of variations, but none has produces such a difference then heat.  You can even see it within this post.  Many others have used your same recipe and it just looks very different out of a regular oven.

Arthur.

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #127 on: June 29, 2005, 06:46:21 PM »
Arthur,
No doubt the TEC has a lot to do with it. Having said that, I can tell the second the Raquel dough comes off the hook that I'm holding something special.

My position is that the entire process from the first moment you put temperature adjusted water into the mixing bowl, through the time you peel the pie from heat, will directly affect the overall outcome. Meticulous attention to detail pays huge dividends in home pizza making. The best advise I can give is to repeat a recipe until you feel "comfortable" with it. The best recipes demand that you weigh the ingredients. I know of no better way to repeatability than weighing. Otherwise it is hit or miss.

Tonight I'm going to prepare my first batch of Raquel made with the Professional 600. I will upload photographs to show what the dough looks like along the way.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #128 on: June 29, 2005, 07:19:15 PM »
I just finished mixing my first batch of Pizza Raquel dough and I am encouraged by the results. Giddy to be precise. The dough never felt better. In fact it was so competent that I did not require the use of ANY bench flour to aid in the hand-kneading or ball forming segments. What the heck does that prove? I don't know other than I thought it was significant. Yeah, you could say I'm happy.

The following photographs were taken after key milestones were achieved in the Pizza Raquel mixing process. I trust they might prove useful for others.

1) 1/2 the flour, water, commercial yeast, salt, and Varasano preferment were mixed for 1 minute. Photo was taken, then mixture rested for 20 minutes.
2) Dough shown after adding the balance of flour (slowly) at the five minute mark of mixing on stir speed. I then sped up to 2 speed for 5 minutes.
3) Dough shown after ten minutes of mixing. It was then rested for 15 minutes before hand kneading.
4) Dough shown after 15 minute rest period. It was then removed from the bowl for hand kneading.
5) Dough shown being hand kneaded for one minute (don't see any bench flour do ya?)
6) Dough balls formed after hand kneading
7) Dough balls placed in SS containers before being placed in the fridge for 3-4 days or until I cannot hold out any longer.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 07:46:05 PM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #129 on: July 02, 2005, 01:22:56 AM »
JF_Aidan_Pryde,
I feel your pain in a visceral way. I spent a lifetime trying to figure it out before it finally revealed itself to me.

The recommended mixing and stretching guidelines for Pizza Raquel have been proven to be effective for over a hundred pies. Each and every time, the results speak for themselves. Let me know the exact steps you are following and I may be able to help. One question: Have you followed the Raquel steps exactly?

Let me know...

Hi pftalor,
I tried your recipe yesterday. Here is what I did:
- 1 cup of water
- 3 cups of regular flour, 11% protein (I haven't found high-gluten in Australia yet)
- 1/4 tsp IDY (no preferment available)
- 2 tsp regular salt (no seasalt at home)

So ingredience wise, it's really quite off already. I'm not sure how much of a big deal
the salt is but I think the flour is more critical.

I followed your instructions except for one accident -- I put the yeast after I disolved
the salt. Then I added the flour. Not sure how much of an effect this had.

Another thing I should mention is that I have no flour mixer. So all the mixing and
kneading was done manually. I added half the flour first then stirred in a spiral fashion
using a wooden spoon. I did this until the end. I used both of your autolyse periods.

I was very hungry so I had to do a quick rise. The dough was placed in a warm area
above my oven and took about 3-4 hours to rise.

So now comes the critical part: shapping without punching down on the newly risen
dough. I let the dough rise to about 170%, so not 2x. I'm not sure what your recipe
calls for. But from the pictures I've seen of the dough balls made using Raquel, they
all seemed very tightly formed and not 'molten'.

From the pictures below, you can see that my dough ball just collapsed itself on the board.
It was as I felt before -- a totally totally relaxed dough ball with zero handling ability.
It also meant it was easy to shape via slapping. A few slaps here and then and it was
spead to a disc. But I couldn't pick it up and work with my knuckles -- it would have just
dripped.

The resulting pizza had a very little puffing. The crust was very pale but the bottom was
nicely charred thanks to the two stone arrangment. I cooked it for 3min on the bottom
stone and 2min on top with broil. Cheese was burning but crust wasn't.

So that's the first pizza. I took a picture of the second pizza as it was being removed from
the bowl. Maybe it'll help in the diagnosis. As you can see the base of the second pizza is
nicely charred. But once again the rim is pretty pale. I did notice the half the of pizza that
was on the 'inside' of the oven received better browning. A picture of Pizza 1 and 2 is also
below, which shows the second one doing better. I don't know why this is. My oven was
preheated for like 3 hours for pizza 1. Finally a picture shows a slice of pizza 2 bent over
itself to contrast the base and crust.

My question remains, how do you guys manage to let the dough rise and double yet still retain
strength in the dough ball for immediate shaping?
 


Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #130 on: July 02, 2005, 01:29:38 AM »
Pizza 1
Pizza 1 crust
Pizza 2 dough
Pizza 2

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #131 on: July 02, 2005, 01:31:07 AM »
Pizza 1 vs. 2
Pizza 2 bent over

---
I think Pete will know what I mean when I say "I've come full circle."

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #132 on: July 02, 2005, 09:13:05 AM »
James,

I'd like to take a stab at diagnosing your problem. There is no one who understands the Raquel recipe better than pftaylor, so I will try to confine my comments and observations to the particular recipe and technique you used.

To begin, I don't think your problem was due to the way you handled the yeast or the fact that you mixed and kneaded everything by hand. In fact, had you used a high-gluten flour, such as the KASL called for in the Raquel recipe, you wouldn't have been able to do an adequate job of kneading by hand because of the higher protein level and higher levels of gluten formation that are inherent in a high-gluten flour. A machine would be needed.

On the face of it, your recipe looks OK. But I could tell just from your photos of the dough that the dough was overhydrated, that is, it contained too much water. This morning, I actually weighed 3 cups of a general purpose all-purpose flour and 3 cups of KASL flour, and relative to the amount of water you used (one cup, which I also weighed), your hydration level should have been within a workable range. You substituted your Australian "bakers flour" for the KASL, but it is important for you to keep in mind that doing that usually requires that you make adjustments to the hydration levels. You can't just substitute one flour for another in a recipe and expect to get the same results. That is because the higher the protein/gluten levels of a given flour, the more water is required to hydrate the dough, and vice versa. Varasano has often mentioned that the type of flour is less important than many make it out to be, but even he is very careful about the hydration levels. Furthermore, using rest periods increases the rate of hydration of the dough and if you are not careful with the amount of water you use, it is easy to end up with an overhydrated dough. I don't know what happened in your case specifically, but somehow you ended up with too much water relative to the amount and type of flour you used. If you used volumes instead of weights, it would be easy for this to happen.

A second departure you took from the basic Raquel recipe is that you used a same-day, room-temperature rise. There is nothing per se wrong with that, but you will get markedly different results. One of your own observations was the light color of the crust. This is a very typical result from using an all-purpose flour dough and a few hours of room-temperature fermentation. Rushing a dough like that doesn't give the enzymes enough time to do the job of releasing natural sugars from the starch in the flour to be available for browning during the baking of the crust. As the enzymes are trying to do their job of releasing the sugars, the yeast is competing with the enzymes by eating the sugars as soon as they are released and trying to produce carbon dioxide to cause the dough to rise. Under these circumstances, the texture, flavor, and color of the crust will all suffer to some degree. The pizza will still be edible but its quality will be less than optimum. Actually, under the circumstances, I thought your pizzas looked quite good--and tasty.

I will defer to pftaylor to speak to the Raquel recipe and how you might use it under your particular circumstances, but I do believe it is possible to practice the recipe with your Australian bakers flour. However, you will have to pay close attention to the use of water relative to the flour to achieve the desired characteristics in the finished dough. The finished dough should be smooth and elastic, and not wet or dry. I look for a tacky feel. If the dough sticks to your fingers when you poke them into the dough, the dough is too wet and more flour is required (but only a teaspoon or tablespoon at a time). I would follow all the other steps of the recipe exactly as they are. You may find from experience that other changes will be required, and that your dough may not be as robust or as satisfying as one using high-gluten flour, but that is all part of the process of adapting a recipe to your particular circumstances. 

Peter
« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 02:06:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #133 on: July 02, 2005, 09:20:52 AM »
JF_Aidan_Pryde,

Hey mate!

I have a few suggestions for you based on your in-depth description and photographs. The intent of my comments are designed to get you producing excellent, repeatable, results. Nothing more, nothing less. Some will cost money, which can't be avoided if you want to break out of the box that you are currently in. Fortunately there is a well traveled path to go on.

First, do you have a digital scale? If so, use it. Throw away your measuring cup. Or just use it to drink some good Aussie brew with because it has no place in the world of home pizza making. I can see from your photos that your hydration percentage is well above 60%. You must get this right or things will never get better. This small investment will pay big dividends for you as I see a lot of good in your dough which is being held back by a cup of this and a cup of that. Bite the bullet and spend some money on a very accurate digital scale. Take home message is: Weigh every single ingredient. The difference will be eye opening. The end result will be satisfying.

Next, do you own a refrigerator? If not buy one - only kidding! I would suggest for you to put your mixed-by-hand-dough in the fridge for at least 24 hours and give it a good cold rise. It should not double in the fridge. In fact, it should hardly grow at all. Your counter rise is leading to the softness issue in my experience

Finally, follow the Raquel mixing recommendations exactly except where you substitute hand-kneading for machine mixing. I've revised my prep steps for your situation:

Preparation Steps
1 - Stir water (room temp) and salt with spoon/whisk until dissolved in bowl.
2 - Add approximately half the flour first, then the yeast. 
3 - Mix 1 minute with a big spoon to incorporate yeast.
4 - 20 minute autolyse. DO NOT SKIP THIS STEP (or you will die painfully from the jaws of a "Freshy").
5 - Form a volcano-like mound with the remaining flour on your counter and pour mixture slowly in the middle of it. Mix for 5 minutes, adding in remaining flour gradually over the 5 minute period.
6 - Mix for 5 more minutes to incorporate all the mixture. 
7 - 15 minute autolyse. DO NOT SKIP THIS STEP (or you will die really painfully and slowly from the jaws of a "Freshy"a "Salty" and a Tazmanian Devil).
8 - Hand knead for 2 minutes on lightly floured prep area.
9 - Cut into 2 equal pieces, form into balls, place dough into bowls, cover with shower caps.
10 - Place dough in the refrigerator. Ferment for 24+ hours.
11 - On the following day(s), remove dough from refrigerator and bring to room temperature. Note: Do not punch down, reform balls, or do anything to the dough other than let it warm to room temperature.

It will work for you. Make those changes and report back.

There is an alternative solution. If the above doesn't work for you, buy a ticket to Tampa and I'll show you how to throw a pie on the barbie...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2005, 09:29:07 AM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline duckjob

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #134 on: July 03, 2005, 12:40:56 AM »
Its been a while since I've posted, but I thought I would throw up some pictures of the latest pizzas I've made with my modified Pizza Raquel recipe. First pie is fresh moz, peperoni and basil added after the pie cooked. The second pie was topped with fresh moz, pecorino romano and a drizzle of olive oil, all before going into the oven. I have the professional 6 mixer, which I believe is the older model of the mixer you bought pftaylor. It sounds like the spiral is working out good for you. I may have to shop around and see what it would cost me.

Brian


(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_070205/raquel_pep_basil.jpg)

(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_070205/raquel_cheese.jpg)

(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_070205/raquel_side.jpg)

(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_070205/raquel_bottom.jpg)



« Last Edit: July 03, 2005, 12:43:12 AM by duckjob »

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #135 on: July 03, 2005, 11:28:58 PM »
JF_Aidan_Pryde,

I've also been trying to perfect a NY style pizza here in Australia for several years now. The consensus I've come to is that there's little or no point in trying to improvise with things like Defiance Bakers Flour and it's 11% protein content. Reading Dominick A. DeAngelis was my first real awakening about importance of protein content in this style of pizza. The closest I've got so far is with Molini-Pizzuti Italian Bread Flour with 12.6%, even tried adding some gluten to it. But that's still not doing it properly. Like others have said you end up with hydration differences that affect the end result. I know professional 14% bread flour can be bought, I'm just in the midst of tracking down a local bakery supplier. If you're not dead set on trying to recreate a true NY pizza like the one I remember from living there as a kid, then I'd move towards a more general neopolitan style that uses the lower content 00 style flours that are readily available here in delis. Mind you the Raquel does probably have more in common with neopolitan than the average NY pizza, especially with the approach to toppings..
« Last Edit: July 04, 2005, 03:19:55 AM by OzPizza »
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Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #136 on: July 04, 2005, 12:13:59 AM »
Hey guys,

Thanks Pete and pftaylor for your detailed replies!
High hydration is definitely a good diagnosis. But the revised recipe isn't saying that I should
reduce my water level. I don't have a scale and can't get one anytime soon. I think I'll have to
go by the 'tacky' metric for now.

But hey, look what I found today:
In case you can't read, it says "Protein 14.1%"
:D :D :D

Btw, that's 500grams for about $1.2 USD. How does that compare to KASL?
(OzPizza, I found it at a health food store in Newtown, do tell me if you manage to
find a good baker that'll supply high protein flour)

And finally, now that I've got some high-protein flour but I still have no mixer,
is there any technique known to man for kneading this stuff?  ???
« Last Edit: July 04, 2005, 12:25:26 AM by JF_Aidan_Pryde »

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #137 on: July 04, 2005, 01:26:28 AM »
Hey guys,

Thanks Pete and pftaylor for your detailed replies!
High hydration is definitely a good diagnosis. But the revised recipe isn't saying that I should
reduce my water level. I don't have a scale and can't get one anytime soon. I think I'll have to
go by the 'tacky' metric for now.

But hey, look what I found today:
In case you can't read, it says "Protein 14.1%"
:D :D :D

Btw, that's 500grams for about $1.2 USD. How does that compare to KASL?
(OzPizza, I found it at a health food store in Newtown, do tell me if you manage to
find a good baker that'll supply high protein flour)

And finally, now that I've got some high-protein flour but I still have no mixer,
is there any technique known to man for kneading this stuff?  ???

JF_Aidan_Pryde, I looked around some health food stores also in my area south of Sydney, but most naturally sold the opposite, ie low gluten flour for people intolerant to it. I'd rather get on to some real bakers flour though, I don't know how close the health food shop flour specs would be outside of having the correct protein content. You want to make sure that it's not a Wholemeal Flour - Hi Protein, as that's different again from baker's flour. I'm already aware that companies like AFM and Laucke that do commercial baker's Flour, so I just need to find a distributor.

To be honest, I'd ditch the hand mixing all together, I did several years ago, first in favour of the bread maker, then the food processor, but probably soon a kitchenaid. It's a drawn out enough process without adding the hand mixing/kneading. I'd never make one if I had to stuff around and do it by hand and as Pete-zza says high gluten flour is not designed for kneading at all.
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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #138 on: July 04, 2005, 02:59:54 AM »
Here are the photographs of my first Pizza Raquel produced with the Kitchen Aid Professional 600. I am delighted by the results and completely sold on spiral hook mixing. The dough and resultant crust were superb.

duckjob, before you invest in a $19.95 spiral hook, make sure it is compatible with your unit. If you have an older Pro 600 it may not be wise to utilize it. A better path may be to upgrade for a small fee to the new 600 models with improved gearing.

JF_Aidan_Pryde, sounds like you have figured out a way, without a scale, to reduce the water percentage of your efforts. Let us know how it works out.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #139 on: July 04, 2005, 03:12:47 AM »
pftaylor great pics!

Now that I've ordered a new oven, I'm keen on buying a Kitchenaid here in Australia myself. Here's where it gets interesting though, not all the model #s line up. It's a bit hard to judge on the specs to as I believe our 240v effects the wattage. As you can see from the distributors website there seems to be 2 commercial models, the K5SS and KPM50 http://www.petermcinnes.com.au/kitchenaid_commercial_mixers.php , conviently neither model matches up with the US line it seems. Only the domestic models do, as in the KSM50. I am thinking about the K5 possibly as it seems it seems to share the same specs as the KPM50 without going for all metal construction, which will no doubt cost more.

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