Author Topic: Pizza Raquel  (Read 210262 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pftaylor

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1113
  • Location: Tampa, FL
  • Life's Short. Get Wood Fired Up!
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #125 on: June 29, 2005, 01:30:29 PM »
Arthur,
I have elaborated a number of times about how robust the Raquel dough is utilizing the exact mixing and stretching steps I've detailed in this master thread. Try it and follow every single step. I literally giggle every time I make a batch of dough now since it just feels so right. Another edge that I have is my two scales; one for exact measurements and the other for heavy ingredients. The final contributory factor has to be the TEC's high temperature.
I also think the Varasano preferment adds a little something extra (for some unknown reason) above just adding flavor, but oddly enough that something extra has not revealed itself with Pizza Sophia at this point. However, I think the KitchenAid Professional 600 mixer combined with a lower hydration percentage will turn the tide there as well.

The first Caputo based batch I made with the Professional 600 felt nearly identical to my typical Raquel dough coming off the hook with the Artisan. I can't wait to make my first Professional 600 Raquel batch.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 01:42:31 PM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com


Offline Arthur

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 253
  • When Brooklyn Was the World
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #126 on: June 29, 2005, 05:02:12 PM »
PFT,

I just read the post including the recipe which I hadn't seen yet.  It's actually pretty close to my recipe I've been using for 2 years now - except I use Kosher Salt and no starter and a slightly higher hidration level.   Although I have not used a starter before and tonight I will be trying my dough with 1 autolyse period I assume that the look of your dough is mostly from the high heat.  Having cooked my pizza in both a regular oven (550) and a wood burning oven (1000 degrees) I saw such a difference in the cooked pizza dough between the two that I have to assume it's due to your grill.  As I said, I'm trying pizza tonight with the autolyse so I can report back on whether or not that gave the dough the light/airy look to it.  Like most people on this forum I have tried 100's of variations, but none has produces such a difference then heat.  You can even see it within this post.  Many others have used your same recipe and it just looks very different out of a regular oven.

Arthur.

Offline pftaylor

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1113
  • Location: Tampa, FL
  • Life's Short. Get Wood Fired Up!
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #127 on: June 29, 2005, 06:46:21 PM »
Arthur,
No doubt the TEC has a lot to do with it. Having said that, I can tell the second the Raquel dough comes off the hook that I'm holding something special.

My position is that the entire process from the first moment you put temperature adjusted water into the mixing bowl, through the time you peel the pie from heat, will directly affect the overall outcome. Meticulous attention to detail pays huge dividends in home pizza making. The best advise I can give is to repeat a recipe until you feel "comfortable" with it. The best recipes demand that you weigh the ingredients. I know of no better way to repeatability than weighing. Otherwise it is hit or miss.

Tonight I'm going to prepare my first batch of Raquel made with the Professional 600. I will upload photographs to show what the dough looks like along the way.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline pftaylor

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1113
  • Location: Tampa, FL
  • Life's Short. Get Wood Fired Up!
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #128 on: June 29, 2005, 07:19:15 PM »
I just finished mixing my first batch of Pizza Raquel dough and I am encouraged by the results. Giddy to be precise. The dough never felt better. In fact it was so competent that I did not require the use of ANY bench flour to aid in the hand-kneading or ball forming segments. What the heck does that prove? I don't know other than I thought it was significant. Yeah, you could say I'm happy.

The following photographs were taken after key milestones were achieved in the Pizza Raquel mixing process. I trust they might prove useful for others.

1) 1/2 the flour, water, commercial yeast, salt, and Varasano preferment were mixed for 1 minute. Photo was taken, then mixture rested for 20 minutes.
2) Dough shown after adding the balance of flour (slowly) at the five minute mark of mixing on stir speed. I then sped up to 2 speed for 5 minutes.
3) Dough shown after ten minutes of mixing. It was then rested for 15 minutes before hand kneading.
4) Dough shown after 15 minute rest period. It was then removed from the bowl for hand kneading.
5) Dough shown being hand kneaded for one minute (don't see any bench flour do ya?)
6) Dough balls formed after hand kneading
7) Dough balls placed in SS containers before being placed in the fridge for 3-4 days or until I cannot hold out any longer.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 07:46:05 PM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Bay Area, USA
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #129 on: July 02, 2005, 01:22:56 AM »
JF_Aidan_Pryde,
I feel your pain in a visceral way. I spent a lifetime trying to figure it out before it finally revealed itself to me.

The recommended mixing and stretching guidelines for Pizza Raquel have been proven to be effective for over a hundred pies. Each and every time, the results speak for themselves. Let me know the exact steps you are following and I may be able to help. One question: Have you followed the Raquel steps exactly?

Let me know...

Hi pftalor,
I tried your recipe yesterday. Here is what I did:
- 1 cup of water
- 3 cups of regular flour, 11% protein (I haven't found high-gluten in Australia yet)
- 1/4 tsp IDY (no preferment available)
- 2 tsp regular salt (no seasalt at home)

So ingredience wise, it's really quite off already. I'm not sure how much of a big deal
the salt is but I think the flour is more critical.

I followed your instructions except for one accident -- I put the yeast after I disolved
the salt. Then I added the flour. Not sure how much of an effect this had.

Another thing I should mention is that I have no flour mixer. So all the mixing and
kneading was done manually. I added half the flour first then stirred in a spiral fashion
using a wooden spoon. I did this until the end. I used both of your autolyse periods.

I was very hungry so I had to do a quick rise. The dough was placed in a warm area
above my oven and took about 3-4 hours to rise.

So now comes the critical part: shapping without punching down on the newly risen
dough. I let the dough rise to about 170%, so not 2x. I'm not sure what your recipe
calls for. But from the pictures I've seen of the dough balls made using Raquel, they
all seemed very tightly formed and not 'molten'.

From the pictures below, you can see that my dough ball just collapsed itself on the board.
It was as I felt before -- a totally totally relaxed dough ball with zero handling ability.
It also meant it was easy to shape via slapping. A few slaps here and then and it was
spead to a disc. But I couldn't pick it up and work with my knuckles -- it would have just
dripped.

The resulting pizza had a very little puffing. The crust was very pale but the bottom was
nicely charred thanks to the two stone arrangment. I cooked it for 3min on the bottom
stone and 2min on top with broil. Cheese was burning but crust wasn't.

So that's the first pizza. I took a picture of the second pizza as it was being removed from
the bowl. Maybe it'll help in the diagnosis. As you can see the base of the second pizza is
nicely charred. But once again the rim is pretty pale. I did notice the half the of pizza that
was on the 'inside' of the oven received better browning. A picture of Pizza 1 and 2 is also
below, which shows the second one doing better. I don't know why this is. My oven was
preheated for like 3 hours for pizza 1. Finally a picture shows a slice of pizza 2 bent over
itself to contrast the base and crust.

My question remains, how do you guys manage to let the dough rise and double yet still retain
strength in the dough ball for immediate shaping?
 

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Bay Area, USA
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #130 on: July 02, 2005, 01:29:38 AM »
Pizza 1
Pizza 1 crust
Pizza 2 dough
Pizza 2

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Bay Area, USA
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #131 on: July 02, 2005, 01:31:07 AM »
Pizza 1 vs. 2
Pizza 2 bent over

---
I think Pete will know what I mean when I say "I've come full circle."

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #132 on: July 02, 2005, 09:13:05 AM »
James,

I'd like to take a stab at diagnosing your problem. There is no one who understands the Raquel recipe better than pftaylor, so I will try to confine my comments and observations to the particular recipe and technique you used.

To begin, I don't think your problem was due to the way you handled the yeast or the fact that you mixed and kneaded everything by hand. In fact, had you used a high-gluten flour, such as the KASL called for in the Raquel recipe, you wouldn't have been able to do an adequate job of kneading by hand because of the higher protein level and higher levels of gluten formation that are inherent in a high-gluten flour. A machine would be needed.

On the face of it, your recipe looks OK. But I could tell just from your photos of the dough that the dough was overhydrated, that is, it contained too much water. This morning, I actually weighed 3 cups of a general purpose all-purpose flour and 3 cups of KASL flour, and relative to the amount of water you used (one cup, which I also weighed), your hydration level should have been within a workable range. You substituted your Australian "bakers flour" for the KASL, but it is important for you to keep in mind that doing that usually requires that you make adjustments to the hydration levels. You can't just substitute one flour for another in a recipe and expect to get the same results. That is because the higher the protein/gluten levels of a given flour, the more water is required to hydrate the dough, and vice versa. Varasano has often mentioned that the type of flour is less important than many make it out to be, but even he is very careful about the hydration levels. Furthermore, using rest periods increases the rate of hydration of the dough and if you are not careful with the amount of water you use, it is easy to end up with an overhydrated dough. I don't know what happened in your case specifically, but somehow you ended up with too much water relative to the amount and type of flour you used. If you used volumes instead of weights, it would be easy for this to happen.

A second departure you took from the basic Raquel recipe is that you used a same-day, room-temperature rise. There is nothing per se wrong with that, but you will get markedly different results. One of your own observations was the light color of the crust. This is a very typical result from using an all-purpose flour dough and a few hours of room-temperature fermentation. Rushing a dough like that doesn't give the enzymes enough time to do the job of releasing natural sugars from the starch in the flour to be available for browning during the baking of the crust. As the enzymes are trying to do their job of releasing the sugars, the yeast is competing with the enzymes by eating the sugars as soon as they are released and trying to produce carbon dioxide to cause the dough to rise. Under these circumstances, the texture, flavor, and color of the crust will all suffer to some degree. The pizza will still be edible but its quality will be less than optimum. Actually, under the circumstances, I thought your pizzas looked quite good--and tasty.

I will defer to pftaylor to speak to the Raquel recipe and how you might use it under your particular circumstances, but I do believe it is possible to practice the recipe with your Australian bakers flour. However, you will have to pay close attention to the use of water relative to the flour to achieve the desired characteristics in the finished dough. The finished dough should be smooth and elastic, and not wet or dry. I look for a tacky feel. If the dough sticks to your fingers when you poke them into the dough, the dough is too wet and more flour is required (but only a teaspoon or tablespoon at a time). I would follow all the other steps of the recipe exactly as they are. You may find from experience that other changes will be required, and that your dough may not be as robust or as satisfying as one using high-gluten flour, but that is all part of the process of adapting a recipe to your particular circumstances. 

Peter
« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 02:06:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1113
  • Location: Tampa, FL
  • Life's Short. Get Wood Fired Up!
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #133 on: July 02, 2005, 09:20:52 AM »
JF_Aidan_Pryde,

Hey mate!

I have a few suggestions for you based on your in-depth description and photographs. The intent of my comments are designed to get you producing excellent, repeatable, results. Nothing more, nothing less. Some will cost money, which can't be avoided if you want to break out of the box that you are currently in. Fortunately there is a well traveled path to go on.

First, do you have a digital scale? If so, use it. Throw away your measuring cup. Or just use it to drink some good Aussie brew with because it has no place in the world of home pizza making. I can see from your photos that your hydration percentage is well above 60%. You must get this right or things will never get better. This small investment will pay big dividends for you as I see a lot of good in your dough which is being held back by a cup of this and a cup of that. Bite the bullet and spend some money on a very accurate digital scale. Take home message is: Weigh every single ingredient. The difference will be eye opening. The end result will be satisfying.

Next, do you own a refrigerator? If not buy one - only kidding! I would suggest for you to put your mixed-by-hand-dough in the fridge for at least 24 hours and give it a good cold rise. It should not double in the fridge. In fact, it should hardly grow at all. Your counter rise is leading to the softness issue in my experience

Finally, follow the Raquel mixing recommendations exactly except where you substitute hand-kneading for machine mixing. I've revised my prep steps for your situation:

Preparation Steps
1 - Stir water (room temp) and salt with spoon/whisk until dissolved in bowl.
2 - Add approximately half the flour first, then the yeast. 
3 - Mix 1 minute with a big spoon to incorporate yeast.
4 - 20 minute autolyse. DO NOT SKIP THIS STEP (or you will die painfully from the jaws of a "Freshy").
5 - Form a volcano-like mound with the remaining flour on your counter and pour mixture slowly in the middle of it. Mix for 5 minutes, adding in remaining flour gradually over the 5 minute period.
6 - Mix for 5 more minutes to incorporate all the mixture. 
7 - 15 minute autolyse. DO NOT SKIP THIS STEP (or you will die really painfully and slowly from the jaws of a "Freshy"a "Salty" and a Tazmanian Devil).
8 - Hand knead for 2 minutes on lightly floured prep area.
9 - Cut into 2 equal pieces, form into balls, place dough into bowls, cover with shower caps.
10 - Place dough in the refrigerator. Ferment for 24+ hours.
11 - On the following day(s), remove dough from refrigerator and bring to room temperature. Note: Do not punch down, reform balls, or do anything to the dough other than let it warm to room temperature.

It will work for you. Make those changes and report back.

There is an alternative solution. If the above doesn't work for you, buy a ticket to Tampa and I'll show you how to throw a pie on the barbie...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2005, 09:29:07 AM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com


Offline duckjob

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Anaheim
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #134 on: July 03, 2005, 12:40:56 AM »
Its been a while since I've posted, but I thought I would throw up some pictures of the latest pizzas I've made with my modified Pizza Raquel recipe. First pie is fresh moz, peperoni and basil added after the pie cooked. The second pie was topped with fresh moz, pecorino romano and a drizzle of olive oil, all before going into the oven. I have the professional 6 mixer, which I believe is the older model of the mixer you bought pftaylor. It sounds like the spiral is working out good for you. I may have to shop around and see what it would cost me.

Brian


(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_070205/raquel_pep_basil.jpg)

(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_070205/raquel_cheese.jpg)

(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_070205/raquel_side.jpg)

(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_070205/raquel_bottom.jpg)



« Last Edit: July 03, 2005, 12:43:12 AM by duckjob »

Offline OzPizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Age: 44
  • Location: South of Sydney, Australia
  • Pizza Perfectionist from Oz!
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #135 on: July 03, 2005, 11:28:58 PM »
JF_Aidan_Pryde,

I've also been trying to perfect a NY style pizza here in Australia for several years now. The consensus I've come to is that there's little or no point in trying to improvise with things like Defiance Bakers Flour and it's 11% protein content. Reading Dominick A. DeAngelis was my first real awakening about importance of protein content in this style of pizza. The closest I've got so far is with Molini-Pizzuti Italian Bread Flour with 12.6%, even tried adding some gluten to it. But that's still not doing it properly. Like others have said you end up with hydration differences that affect the end result. I know professional 14% bread flour can be bought, I'm just in the midst of tracking down a local bakery supplier. If you're not dead set on trying to recreate a true NY pizza like the one I remember from living there as a kid, then I'd move towards a more general neopolitan style that uses the lower content 00 style flours that are readily available here in delis. Mind you the Raquel does probably have more in common with neopolitan than the average NY pizza, especially with the approach to toppings..
« Last Edit: July 04, 2005, 03:19:55 AM by OzPizza »
Founder of B.R.N.Y.P.O.Z. - The bring REAL NY pizza to Oz movement!

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Bay Area, USA
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #136 on: July 04, 2005, 12:13:59 AM »
Hey guys,

Thanks Pete and pftaylor for your detailed replies!
High hydration is definitely a good diagnosis. But the revised recipe isn't saying that I should
reduce my water level. I don't have a scale and can't get one anytime soon. I think I'll have to
go by the 'tacky' metric for now.

But hey, look what I found today:
In case you can't read, it says "Protein 14.1%"
:D :D :D

Btw, that's 500grams for about $1.2 USD. How does that compare to KASL?
(OzPizza, I found it at a health food store in Newtown, do tell me if you manage to
find a good baker that'll supply high protein flour)

And finally, now that I've got some high-protein flour but I still have no mixer,
is there any technique known to man for kneading this stuff?  ???
« Last Edit: July 04, 2005, 12:25:26 AM by JF_Aidan_Pryde »

Offline OzPizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Age: 44
  • Location: South of Sydney, Australia
  • Pizza Perfectionist from Oz!
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #137 on: July 04, 2005, 01:26:28 AM »
Hey guys,

Thanks Pete and pftaylor for your detailed replies!
High hydration is definitely a good diagnosis. But the revised recipe isn't saying that I should
reduce my water level. I don't have a scale and can't get one anytime soon. I think I'll have to
go by the 'tacky' metric for now.

But hey, look what I found today:
In case you can't read, it says "Protein 14.1%"
:D :D :D

Btw, that's 500grams for about $1.2 USD. How does that compare to KASL?
(OzPizza, I found it at a health food store in Newtown, do tell me if you manage to
find a good baker that'll supply high protein flour)

And finally, now that I've got some high-protein flour but I still have no mixer,
is there any technique known to man for kneading this stuff?  ???

JF_Aidan_Pryde, I looked around some health food stores also in my area south of Sydney, but most naturally sold the opposite, ie low gluten flour for people intolerant to it. I'd rather get on to some real bakers flour though, I don't know how close the health food shop flour specs would be outside of having the correct protein content. You want to make sure that it's not a Wholemeal Flour - Hi Protein, as that's different again from baker's flour. I'm already aware that companies like AFM and Laucke that do commercial baker's Flour, so I just need to find a distributor.

To be honest, I'd ditch the hand mixing all together, I did several years ago, first in favour of the bread maker, then the food processor, but probably soon a kitchenaid. It's a drawn out enough process without adding the hand mixing/kneading. I'd never make one if I had to stuff around and do it by hand and as Pete-zza says high gluten flour is not designed for kneading at all.
Founder of B.R.N.Y.P.O.Z. - The bring REAL NY pizza to Oz movement!

Offline pftaylor

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1113
  • Location: Tampa, FL
  • Life's Short. Get Wood Fired Up!
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #138 on: July 04, 2005, 02:59:54 AM »
Here are the photographs of my first Pizza Raquel produced with the Kitchen Aid Professional 600. I am delighted by the results and completely sold on spiral hook mixing. The dough and resultant crust were superb.

duckjob, before you invest in a $19.95 spiral hook, make sure it is compatible with your unit. If you have an older Pro 600 it may not be wise to utilize it. A better path may be to upgrade for a small fee to the new 600 models with improved gearing.

JF_Aidan_Pryde, sounds like you have figured out a way, without a scale, to reduce the water percentage of your efforts. Let us know how it works out.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline OzPizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Age: 44
  • Location: South of Sydney, Australia
  • Pizza Perfectionist from Oz!
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #139 on: July 04, 2005, 03:12:47 AM »
pftaylor great pics!

Now that I've ordered a new oven, I'm keen on buying a Kitchenaid here in Australia myself. Here's where it gets interesting though, not all the model #s line up. It's a bit hard to judge on the specs to as I believe our 240v effects the wattage. As you can see from the distributors website there seems to be 2 commercial models, the K5SS and KPM50 http://www.petermcinnes.com.au/kitchenaid_commercial_mixers.php , conviently neither model matches up with the US line it seems. Only the domestic models do, as in the KSM50. I am thinking about the K5 possibly as it seems it seems to share the same specs as the KPM50 without going for all metal construction, which will no doubt cost more.

Founder of B.R.N.Y.P.O.Z. - The bring REAL NY pizza to Oz movement!

Offline duckjob

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Anaheim
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #140 on: July 04, 2005, 03:24:23 AM »
pftaylor, thanks for the tip. I read the thread on the mixer after I made that post. When I finish school and move out, I'll be upgrading for sure. Looks like the old c hook will have to do for now.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #141 on: July 04, 2005, 10:54:47 AM »
J_Aiden_Pride,

James, I don't know if you have opened up the bag of flour that you bought from Doctor Earth, but it may be what we call "whole wheat flour" in the U.S. I say this because when the word "stoneground" is used for a flour in the U.S., it almost always means whole wheat flour in which all or most of the bran and wheat germ are retained and not milled out to make a whiter, softer flour that is more suitable for pizza making. Whole wheat flour also has a high protein content, usually higher than high-gluten flours. It will also require more water to hydrate it, and it does so slowly because it takes longer for the bran and wheat germ to absorb the water. It can be used for pizza dough, but it generally isn't used alone (that is, without blending with white flour) because the flavors can be a bit on the bitter side--at least for American tastes.

You asked about the price of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. If one buys it directly from King Arthur, it is $2.95 (U.S.) for a 3-lb. bag, or about 3.93 Australian dollars (if my currency converter was right). Several of our members have found other sources for the flour at lower prices, either by the pound or in 50-lb. bags. In Australia, you may find that your most likely source of high-gluten flour is from a professional baker or foodservice company.

You also asked about hand kneading a dough using high-gluten flour. It is possible to hand knead a high-gluten flour dough, but you will in most cases want to limit yourself to a smaller pizza size, like a 12-inch. The amount of dough for that size can be hand kneaded with little difficulty, even though King Arthur does not specifically list hand kneading as an option for the KASL. I described how to hand knead a KASL dough for a 12-inch NY style pizza at Reply #68, page 4, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.60.html. The techniques are the same whether it is for a classical NY style or the Raquel style. My recollection is that the basic Raquel recipe can be used to make enough dough for two 15-16-inch pizzas. However, if you divide the total dough weight by 3, you will end up with an amount of dough sufficient for a roughly 13-inch pizza and that should be amenable to hand kneading. It will have the same thickness as the 15-16-inch size. If there is anything I can do to help you along, please let me know. If you are unable to locate a source of high-gluten flour suitable for pizza making, you will still be able to practice the Raquel recipe but you may have to make some small changes in hydration if you use a different flour, as previously discussed.

Peter


Offline OzPizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Age: 44
  • Location: South of Sydney, Australia
  • Pizza Perfectionist from Oz!
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #142 on: July 07, 2005, 12:51:22 AM »

But hey, look what I found today:
In case you can't read, it says "Protein 14.1%"
:D :D :D

Btw, that's 500grams for about $1.2 USD. How does that compare to KASL?
(OzPizza, I found it at a health food store in Newtown, do tell me if you manage to
find a good baker that'll supply high protein flour)


JF_Aidan_Pryde, some good news. Much internet searching yielded me an article from the herald on strong flour and it's protein levels for good breadmaking http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/25/1059084203206.html?from=storyrhs. This article was extremely handy in that it listed described places and types of flours they supplied. Out of it I have found that there are to varieties made my Weston Mills namely the Special White Flour and more probably the MaxiPro Flour that are at 14% percent or more. I spoke with a store in Marrickville which was mentioned in the article that sold the Special White Flour, unfortunately they indicated that there was no labelling (which I though odd), but bakeries buy it (how exciting..). I then spoke to Torino Distributors who have everything from Flour to Mozzarella blocks to sauces and toppings. They told me MaxiPro would be the strongest they have, no percentage given but it's something like 12.9 grams protein per whatever standard measurement is. The guy at Torino indicated that that should give it about 14% by content. In the meantime I have sent the NSW sales office of Weston Mills an email asking about the protein content of Special White and specifying I was after 14%. Hopefully they will get back to me with some definitive info shortly. If the MaxiPro is the only way to go then it may have to be a pretty big bag unfortunately.

I'm still waiting on my Equipex pizza oven to arrive, it would almost be quicker to get from the US than the time it's taking to send it 100km from Sydney...mind you they told me on Tuesday I would have it by today, so let's see what happens.


Founder of B.R.N.Y.P.O.Z. - The bring REAL NY pizza to Oz movement!

Offline pftaylor

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1113
  • Location: Tampa, FL
  • Life's Short. Get Wood Fired Up!
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #143 on: July 10, 2005, 08:14:26 PM »
Tonight I made the first two Pizza Raquel's with a new sauce recipe. Simply put, they were to die for. I employed a four day cold rise, fresh mozzarella, my not-so-secret sauce enhanced with Splenda (hey don't laugh it worked for me), pepperoni and dry Italian spices.

Take a look at the tunnel of love on the one slice where there is a big hole seemingly bored through the rim. Now that's a light and airy rim.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Bay Area, USA
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #144 on: July 13, 2005, 05:19:04 AM »
The day I get a rim like that is the day I'm going to stop making pizza and start eating pizza.

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Bay Area, USA
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #145 on: July 14, 2005, 11:33:38 AM »
More failure -- I don't even remember what charamelized crust tastes like anymore.

Sequence of events:
1. Mix 2 cups of water with salt
2. Blend first two cups of flour (12.6% protein Italian bread flour)
3. 20 minute autolyse
4. Blend in next 3 cups over a period of 20 minutes
5. Work on bench until consistent
6. 30 minute autolyse (was having dinner)
7. Hand knead until smooth and non-sticky. Lower hydration that last time.
8. Cut into 4 balls (for 12") and refrigerate in freezer bags

20 hours later:
1. Bring to room temperature (2 hours+ since it's winter here)
2. Without punching down, use dough directly. At this stage the dough is like
a disk as you can see in the photo. The side you can see is the one facing the
plastic bag so that's why it has full of small holes. It took quite some bench
flour to keep it from sticking.
3. Slap into a 10" disc
4. Lift off board and it stretches instantly to 12"+
5. Bake for 3-4 minutes at 500~.
6. Cheese about to burn, bottom lightly charred, crust totally un-caramelized.

It wasn't very tasty. And the rim certainly doens't look anything like pftalyor's wormhole.
It was fairly dense but soft. I'm so tempted go going back to adding honey.

Offline dankfoot

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 79
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #146 on: July 14, 2005, 12:23:43 PM »
My 2 cents,

1st picture looks like the dough is really wet?

Even when cooking at 500 I always have to cook longer than 3 or 4 min. More like 8 min.




Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #147 on: July 14, 2005, 02:17:45 PM »
James,

Dankfoot is correct. You are still using too much water relative to the amount of flour. To confirm this, I went back to the Raquel recipe. It calls for 3 1/3 cups of flour (KASL) and 1 1/8 cup water. That will yield a hydration of 60%. You indicated in your recipe that you used 5 cups of flour and 2 cups of water. Extrapolating from the Raquel recipe to 5 cups of flour, you would have needed 1.69 cups of water, not 2. So, it appears that you are off by at least a quarter of cup (on the high side).

I also weighed some flours on my digital scale to get a rough idea of the hydration percent of your recipe. I don't have any Italian bread flour, but I do have some Caputo 00 Italian pizzeria flour that has a protein content of 11.5-12.5%, and can also be used to make rolls and other bread products. I weighed 5 cups of the Caputo 00 flour. I measured out the flour by volume in the following fashion. I filled a metal one-cup measuring cup until it was slightly overflowing by dipping a tablespoon into the Caputo 00 flour bag and transferring the flour into the metal cup. I then leveled off the flour at the top of the measuring cup with the flat back edge of a knife. This is the way that King Arthur recommends as the way to measure out volumes of flour. I did this 5 times and weighed the flour. The total came to 22.9 ounces. I also weighed 2 cups of water on my digital scale. That came to 16.4 ounces. On that basis, the hydration percent comes to 71.6% (16.4/22.9 = 71.6), or over 11% higher than called for in the Raquel recipe.

As a cross check, I also weighed 5 cups of KASL, which has a protein content of 14.2%. The weight came to 23.35 ounces. or just slightly more than the Caputo flour. Using the same weight of water as in the last example, 16.4 ounces, the hydration would be 70.2% (16.4/23.35 = 70.2). So, even if you had used KASL, you would have been far off with the amount of water. In your actual case, the numbers might have come closer to the 60% hydration used in the Raquel recipe if you measured your flour with a very heavy hand, as by dipping your measuring cup into the flour bag, filling it to overflowing, and shaking or tamping it to get as much flour into the measuring cup as possible. But, looking at the photos, that doesn't seem likely.

What puzzles me most about your pizza is the lack of coloration in the crust. I'd be interested in getting more information on the brand of your Italian bread flour as well as any other information on the bag itself that might provide a clue as to the type of wheat grain used, or any other characteristics of the flour. I suspect that there won't be much, but maybe having the brand name will allow us to do further research on the flour. In any event, unless your flour is a 00 flour with a low protein level, you should have gotten considerably more color in the crust. I agree also with dankfoot that 3-4 minutes bake time seems very short. I think what may have happened with your dough is that it was overly fermented because of the excess of water and that when you tried to correct it with bench flour you ended up with a lot of raw flour that didn't properly bake and interfered with the proper baking of the rest of the crust. If that was the case, that might have accounted for the poor flavor you noted. Usually this condition shows up as a bitter taste. You mentioned using honey, but I don't recall whether the recipe you used called for any oil. In either event, you should have had better browning even without honey and oil.

I think if you get your basic recipe in order and measure out the ingredients along the lines I mentioned, you should get back on track.

Peter

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 139
  • Location: Bay Area, USA
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #148 on: July 14, 2005, 10:06:11 PM »
My 2 cents,

1st picture looks like the dough is really wet?

Even when cooking at 500 I always have to cook longer than 3 or 4 min. More like 8 min.

I don't have a digital thermometer so I can't be sure but whatever temp it is (500+),
salami and cheese will be burning at the 4 minute mark. At 8min, cheese would unedible.

Pete,
I used more than 5 cups overall, as I used a lot of bench flour when I was doing the
final knead before refrigeration. But it still could be hydration overdone.

I don't think it's the flour. I've used general purpose flour too and the browning is on the
same level. I think it must be dough management. I mention honey from the ages back
when I first solved my "pale crust" problem. I used about 1 tsp of honey for each cup of
water. Caramelization was great.

I will try again today, with even lower hydration. Could you post a picture of what
your dough ball looks like just before shaping? Eg. After it reaches room tempeature
and put on the board.

Thanks everyone.

Offline varasano

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 712
  • Location: Atlanta (Bronx born and raised)
  • Seeking perfection
Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #149 on: July 15, 2005, 12:05:55 PM »
Hey guys,

I haven't posted in a long time. Been really busy. Just want to report on one new thing. I've done 3 very successful batches using Marco's strategy of:

-No commercial yeast
-Very tiny amount of starter (2-3%)
-High hydration
-18 hour warm rise

The result has been excellent. The big thing I learned is that what creates spring is high hydration, good mixing and not letting the dough overrise.   I used to think that I needed the IDY, but now I realize that letting the yeast act too much makes the dough rise LESS in the end. If you let the dough rise too much, the structure weakens and when you spread it out it collapses and ends up having less rise, not more. I mentioned this months ago, but since then I've done pies with even less and less rise and they are getting more and more spring and ending with a lighter final product.

This strategy also has the advantage that I can make the dough almost any time - a week before or a day before. Since the dough has very little yeast, putting it in the fridge for a week has not seemed to hurt it any. Just take it out about 18 hours prior to use.


FYI I used both Caputo pizzeria and a blend of KA Bread and Caputo. Good results for both.

Jeff


 

pizzapan