Author Topic: Pizza Raquel  (Read 194455 times)

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Offline abc

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #300 on: January 07, 2007, 07:35:29 PM »
The old timers all cooked their pizzas until they were really well-done--dark brown with some black. A well done crust has a different flavor than a lightly charred crust.

To me, this type of pizza is worlds away from authentic Neapolitan pizza--they are two different animals. I appreciate both for their respective qualities, flavors and textures, but they really are two very distinct styles.


Evelyne
Evelyne

'really well done'... nice...   it's funny how perhaps almost most people? would say that would be a burnt pie.  All I know is when i walk into my nyc pizza shops i always tell them well done for my pie.  But i'm also the same guy that has become to like crusty bagettes, artisan breads, and long dropped the brainwashed attraction to tasteless 'American' white bread like Wonder (unless I toast them).


Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #301 on: January 22, 2007, 07:37:03 AM »
I'm also interested in Evelyne's really well done pies.

In the meantime, here are a few photographs of my "well done" pies. One item to note, I strive to produce an extremely thin crust to reduce the unnecessary carbs and calories. Right now my family is on a caramelized onion and sauteed mushroom kick. So I've been experimenting in this area with various combinations.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 07:43:17 AM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything Youd Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #302 on: January 22, 2007, 07:38:49 AM »
Final Photos
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Offline Barry

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #303 on: January 22, 2007, 08:24:51 AM »
Hi pftaylor,

Lovely pics of some tasty looking pies !  I really appreciate the structure of the open holes in the crust.

My son asked to go on a crash course on pizza making, so I told him to get some serious inspiration by reading your article on Pizza Bianco. It did the trick !

Kind regards

Barry in Johannesburg, South Africa

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #304 on: January 22, 2007, 01:51:39 PM »
Hi Pete,

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner but I missed your post.

When I was researching The Pizza Book, Lombardi's was no longer a pizzeria, they were a full service restaurant that served appetizer sized pizzettas that were produced from a conventional gas fired range oven. Gerry Lombardi told me how they made the pizza. He explained what type of flour they used, that the dough was very wet and soft and that the key was to let the dough rest at least over night before using it. Now, you must realize that none of these guys ever spoke in terms of formulas, recipes, hydration, fermentation, etc. For them it was a natural process that they'd been practicing for decades. They used their senses of touch, feel and sound along with their history to produce the results. I've enjoyed a nearly 30 year friendship with Gerry Lombardi and believe me, he has shared so much with me that he considers me as part of the family, kind of like his kid sister. At our original meeting, it was Gerry who sent me to Totonno's because he told me that "Jerry Pero is the only one left who still makes pizza exactly the way my grandfather did back in 1905". That's when he showed me the picture of his grandfather and Pero's father standing in the doorway of Lombardi's Pizzeria Napoletana in 1905 and said: "That's Jerry's father standing there with my grandfather. If you really want to know how they did it back then, go talk to Jerry. But, I gotta warn you, Jerry is a real recluse--worse than me and he doesn't talk to no body. Once in a while he comes here by me to eat late at night. He wanted to work the steeple chase at Coney Island but his father made him stay with the family business, so he might not want to tell you anything, but you really have to taste his pizza because that's the way pizza was when my grandfather made it. Oh, yeah, he's only open Friday, Saturday and Sunday until he runs out of dough, so you wanna get there early."

As it turned out, Jerry Pero was a curmudgeon, but I did manage to get under the surly crust and he opened up to me, in fact he loved me, as soon as I would poke my head into the pizzeria, his face would light up and he would greet me with a great and floury hug. Learning from these guys took lots of time because the would impart information along with a wealth of stories and they would show me things, a few things at a time but never the whole process at once. They did not approach what they did scientifically at all, nor did they approach their "business" in a real commercial mode. It took plenty of patience and tenacity to know when and how to press for more information. I learned over time and it took me a while to put everything together. Eventually it did all come together and I realized that the way they explained things by showing me and couching the information in stories was their way of teaching.

I don't recall ever seeing a scale at Totonno's, but I am sure that his hands were just as accurate in scaling out dough. His crusts were thicker than John's and the reincarnation of Lombardi's--not that they were thick by any means, but they had more structure and were crisper on the bottom. He did utilize more dough per pizza. John's had the thinnest crust of all and the smallest rim. Lombardi's was just a bit thinner than Totonno's, but not much.

So where does that answer your question? The recipe in my book calls for more generalized results. If the dough was stretched out to 18 inches, the pie would resemble more of a John's type of crust, at 15 inches it would resemble more of a Tottono's type and at 16 inches, a Lombardi.

The recipe calls for 3-3 1/2 cups of flour (around 1 pound) but because the actual amount of flour could vary quite a bit between type of flour used and method of measurement. The optimum for that recipe is the Totonno version which weighs in at about 15-16 ounces.


Hope this helps,

Evelyne

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #305 on: January 22, 2007, 04:10:54 PM »
Barry,
Thanks for the very kind words. Passing on passion is vital. I'm honored to be considered a helpful resource. Kindly have your son pm me if he would like to.

Evelyne,
Your most recent post has awakened my pizza spirit. As a fan of authentic NYC style pies, and self anointed president of the Evelyne Slomon fan club in Tampa, I have a favor to ask; would you inform us how you make a pie when you want an authentic NY pie in the vein of Totonno's? Specifically I mean the steps of the dough preparation process.

I would personally consider the information to be priceless.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything Youd Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #306 on: January 22, 2007, 04:14:06 PM »
Evelyne,

What you provided is of great help.

I have been kicking around different possible dough formulations based on the information you have provided and from your book. Would you object if I post something on the subject--maybe a dough formulation or two for the members to try out if they are interested? I would perhaps do in in a new thread so that this one doesn't get too far off topic.

Thanks again.

Peter

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #307 on: January 22, 2007, 06:34:15 PM »
PFTaylor

An Evelyne Slomon Fan Club?? That would certainly be a first, and you would probably the only member :-D But it's a nice thought. I'll post a Totonno's variation that you guys can try when Pete sets up another topic because we don't want to get any further off topic here.

Pete,

I have no problem with your suggestion, so go ahead.

I know that this is further off topic, but while we're here after what I just posted, I would like to know for my own writing purposes and future projects,, if you find the actual accounts of my experiences with my mentors and with all of the other pizza legends I've had the honor to work with and talk to, of interest. I've got 30 years worth of people from the humblest hole in the wall to the super stars. Unfortunately, I don't think enough of the general public would be interested in it enough to pitch to a publisher...unless I spiced it up with some drugs and sex >:D,

Maybe I can find a way to weave those stories into my next book on pizza. Right now I'm trying to get The Pizza Book revised and republished--who knows maybe I can put those stories in the new edition--it would make so much sense to include all of the information that led to that book and that never made it inside because my publishers didn't think the readers would be interested...

I don't want to take any more from this topic, so maybe this post should start off another topic about what you would all like to see in the revised edition of The Pizza Book. I might just use it as part of my proposal to illustrate how passionate and knowledgeable pizza makers are.

Evelyne

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #308 on: January 22, 2007, 10:55:16 PM »
The recipe calls for 3-3 1/2 cups of flour (around 1 pound) but because the actual amount of flour could vary quite a bit between type of flour used and method of measurement. The optimum for that recipe is the Totonno version which weighs in at about 15-16 ounces.

Evelyne,

As a point of clarification, I assume that the 15-16 ounces referenced above is dough ball weight, not flour weight. Is that correct?

Peter

Offline ELeight

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #309 on: January 23, 2007, 12:33:46 PM »
Evelyn,

     You can count me as the second member of your fan club!  I find your posts very interesting and look forward to each new one.  I would definitely be interested in reading all 30 years' worth of your experiences if you were to publish them. 
     Recently you posted the Lombardi formula to be 65% hydration and 1% salt.
I find this very interesting in that this is off the low side of most everything I've seen here and elsewhere for pizza and bread.  Any further historical information about salt content in pizza dough and its effects would be welcome knowledge to me.
   
Thanks,
Erik


Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #310 on: January 30, 2007, 02:34:39 PM »
Hi,

Pete: yes, the 15-16 ounces refers to the finished dough ball which is right around what the recipe in TPB yields. Remember the recipe is for general results and not specific. If a higher gluten flour (13%+) is used, more hydration will be necessary and the dough ball will be a couple of ounces bigger. As you know, not all flours can accept high hydration, even if their protein content is similar. The recipe in the book was not formulated for all of the choice in flour the home cook has now.

I may have already posted a version of the recipe somewhere on this site, or was it my own current formula?

I'm not very proficient about being able to search for my own posts so that I can see what I've already posted. :-[

It looks like I'll be able to get some time in the kitchen next month, so I hope to get some pictures together for you guys. Right now, I'm waiting for a case of Grande special ricotta that's supposed to be just like the stuff that is hand-produced at old time latticini stores like Alleva in NYC. I even think it's supposed to come in the metal cone shape containers with holes for draining. Grande wants me to put it through some cooking tests. I'm looking forward to playing with it. :chef:

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #311 on: January 30, 2007, 02:50:28 PM »
Evelyne,

I was basing everything on your Reply 298 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg37081.html#msg37081, and also the follow-up posts at Replies 299, 304, 306, and 308. I assume the numbers you gave may be for the formulation you would use now rather than what was recited in your book.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 04:03:25 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #312 on: January 30, 2007, 03:43:30 PM »
Hi Pete,

Yes, that's right, because the recipes in TPB are not based on baker's formulas, but on the formulas I learned from my teachers as their recipes were volumetric. The results of that recipe are pretty darn authentic. I got to test it out at John's Pizzeria in their 80 year old coal-fired oven. I was the first woman to ever make a pizza at their place. They thought it was a novelty--until they tasted my pizza--then they looked at me with amazement: she really knows! That was one of the greatest moments of my pizza making career. :pizza:

Pete, I'm such a space cadet, you are right, I posted the basics earlier in this topic...Duh!

Evelyne

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #313 on: February 07, 2007, 04:45:39 PM »
An interesting opportunity has presented itself tonight. A pizza maker with 15 years experience (currently working at Alessi Bakery) has accepted my invitation for Pizza Raquel and Sophia tonight. I will attempt to post photographs of our pizza making activities.

Why did I invite him? Well, he invited me a couple of weeks ago to his bakery for New Haven style pie. I ended up spending a couple of hours discussing pizza with him. In the spirit of reciprocation, I offered to make him a pie or two.

More to come...
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything Youd Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #314 on: February 24, 2007, 04:05:51 PM »
Sorry for the delay in posting however I have been in travel status so much I'm beginning to think the Admirals Club is my home office. Anyway, attached is the lone photograph I managed to take during my first professional pizzaiolo collaboration visit.

More photos will be taken tomorrow night when he returns for another visit. How do we home pizza makers stack up against the pros? Well, in this particular case, suffice to say that my three years of learning on this board has left a 22 year veteran of the pizza scene gasping for air. The phone calls haven't stopped since...While I'm glad to teach, this stuff takes real time. Now I know why some members charge for their services.

An unintended outcome has arisen as a result of plating Pizza Sophia and Raquel for a true pro. He wants to open a high end pizzeria with my exact recipes and concepts. While I will take a pass on the new business venture, it is comforting to know that my humble efforts to produce the best pies I'm capable of are appreciated by others. It's one thing for one's neighbors to beg for a pizza night every now and then. Its an entirely different ballgame when a guy opens his wallet wide and says "let do this." 
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything Youd Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #315 on: February 24, 2007, 04:21:32 PM »
Here is my plan for tomorrow night. I feel like flexing my pizza muscles a little bit and will go bold by plating the following pies:
- A clam pie in honor of Pepe's (with freshly shucked cherrystones)
- A Rossa and Biancoverde in honor of Chris Bianco (the Rossa will have pistachio kernals just like the original)
- A Pizza Raquel in honor of my all-time favorite actress (with Alleva NYC Fresh Mutz)
- A Pizza Sophia in honor of my second all-time favorite actress (Caputo based...)
- Maybe a Calzone in honor of Dom DeMarco (as my grill is cooling down so as to not burn any more fuel than is necessary)
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything Youd Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline Green Hornet

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #316 on: February 25, 2007, 05:30:10 AM »
Bravo!
Take lots of pictures! 8)

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #317 on: February 26, 2007, 07:44:33 AM »
Here you go Green Hornet. My camera is taking blurry photographs for some reason but these photos will give you a sense of what fun we had. Below are my general comments.

A couple of my pizza inhaling neighbors came over for the festivities. What a great way to say goodbye to the weekend. Pizza is the consumate communal food and lends itself well to gatherings with friends and family.

We managed to take photos of all the pies but the Rosa and everyone agreed that it was the most flavorful of the bunch. I don't know how Chris Bianco ever figured out that putting red onions, pistachios, Reggie Parm, Rosemary, and EVOO would work but I'm thankful for his imagination.

The digestibility of the pies were mentioned by the crew as well. These were very light and no one left feeling bloated - even though we all overate like ravenous dogs. Speaking of dogs, mine were especially grateful for the crust I shared with them.

Another interesting point which should make scott r and pizzanapoletana happy is that everyone agreed that the Caputo based pies had a more flavorful crust. I made two different types of crusts - one with high gluten flour (KASL) and the other with Caputo Pizzeria flour. Both doughs were naturally leavened with the Camaldoli starter however, the Caputo based dough enjoyed a 24 hour room temperature double rise (20 hr bulk rise then cut and balled) at a controlled temperature of between 64 - 68 degrees. The KASL based dough was subjected to a 3 day cold rise in my fridge. 

The take home message is that a properly controlled room temperature rise significantly enhances the crust flavor. I'm not sure my dough whether it be Raquel or Sophia will ever see the inside of a refrigerator again.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 08:09:41 AM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything Youd Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline chrisgraff

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #318 on: March 02, 2007, 09:21:18 PM »
I've been making the Raquel dough with kosher salt.  Anybody else tried that?  I'm having a bit of a debate over whether grinding the salt makes a difference.  I think it does.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4779.new.html#new

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #319 on: March 18, 2007, 08:52:56 AM »
One of the ongoing challenges facing those who choose to grill their pizza is how to bake the top and bottom evenly. In my case, I had reached a suitable trade-off point with a two minute overall bake time. A two minute bake produced slightly more bottom heat than what would be considered ideal but overall it was acceptable. Until I decided to tinker with it.

The change I employed yesterday was designed to achieve a more uniform bake. It occurred to me that putting a barrier of sorts between the pizza skin and the tiles would be beneficial. The barrier I chose was a 15" pizza screen which fit my grill hood perfectly. An unintended benefit of using the screen was that it made peeling the pizza into the grill easier. Much easier.

But did it work for its main objective? Well, not quite. The first Raquel stuck to the screen and had to be forceably removed with a knife. I trust the membership can offer tips on how to season the screen so that sticking is not a problem. Also, the bottom was undercooked after two minutes.

So much more experimentation needs to be occur in order to achieve the best bake possible for my particular situation.

The photographs below show the results of my efforts. I made six pies using the Camaldoli starter as the yeast source. The first three pies were cold fermented since last Tuesday night. The remaining three employed a 24 hour temperature controlled rise. I could denote a slight flavor edge to the room temperature rise but no one else did. The crumb structure of the last three pies was more puffy and blonde.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything Youd Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com


 

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