Author Topic: Pizza Raquel  (Read 196369 times)

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Offline scpizza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #560 on: June 25, 2008, 07:57:06 AM »
In an attempt to slow down my santos I hooked it up to a variac and dropped the voltage, but unfortunately the machine really did not slow down at all. Eventually when I got fairly low the mixers internal circuit protection shut the machine off.  This probably means that the santos uses an AC motor and not a DC motor, so I am off to try to figure out a way to slow this baby down a bit and still let it run cool enough to be safe for the unit.  I fear that I might need a frequency converter, and if so it could get costly.  

I've been trying to figure out how to slow mine too for a long time now without any luck.  Frequency converters only seem to convert among 50Hz, 60Hz, and 400Hz without anything to go to say 30Hz.  If you look at the schematic on the Santos you don't see any reduction gears, though I can't help but think there is one hidden in the elbow connecting the motor shaft with the fork shaft.


Offline jimd

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #561 on: June 25, 2008, 08:40:22 AM »
Not sure if this is the same idea as the "variac" that is mentioned, but I have the same problem with my Bosch Universal Mixer---it mixes very well, but at a higher speed (even at the slowest setting) than is ideal, resulting in dough that is overheated. I bought a dimmer switch intended for lamps, and am now able to slow the machine down to a crawl. (Apologies if your analysis goes way beyond my simple approach---it may be that other machines simply shut down once the power is reduced below a minimum threshold.)

Jim

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #562 on: July 06, 2008, 09:20:46 PM »
Tonight we achieved a personal best. Every single pizza was off-the-hook good. Our congenial guests made the evening. Since they were friends from my wife's hometown, we had a relaxed come-as-you-are experience.

Of course it started raining "medium hard" which meant yours truly had another variable to contend with, but it didn't phase me as much this time because it was more or less controllable. Since I was soaking wet, photographs were limited.

 
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #563 on: July 06, 2008, 11:19:19 PM »
Okay, now I'm hungry...
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline MWTC

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #564 on: July 07, 2008, 05:36:10 PM »
pftaylor,

Nice looking pies. I sure you family loves your "hobby"

Have you settled on a flour combination that you found to be the favorite?

Are you still adding the pinch of yeast to your starter in your formulation?

MWTC  :chef:

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #565 on: July 07, 2008, 10:03:18 PM »
PFT,  those pies are looking real killer!  just got in my bag of bread flour to again do some flour mixing as well.  I am curious as well what your preferences have been with bread/00 flour.  Along with that are you favoring a single or double fermentation(bulk rise).  Also,  I have been experimenting with a dough box type stage 2 rise like you have pictured above.  My spacing in the dough box is much farther than yours,  enough so that the dough balls will not touch.  They have been spreading out more than I would like and was getting ready to make them collide to keep some loft.  Are enjoying the dough box method or is it causing you problems?  Also is it making you use oil at all to help with an easy release of the dough.  Let me know -Marc

Offline pftaylor

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Pizza Raquel
« Reply #566 on: July 08, 2008, 09:19:14 AM »
Hi widespreadpizza & MWTC,
Your questions are prompting me to post an update to the Pizza Raquel Formulary. I'll try to accomplish that task today. In the meantime here are the answers to your specific questions:
- My current preference for flours is to use either Caputo Pizzeria or San Felice Pizzeria. I would need much more time than I currently have to explain why I am ending my experiments with blending but suffice to say it is based on results

- My current preference for fermenting the dough is to use a double stage room temperature fermentation. Again more when I have time

- No problems with separating the dough from the Pyrex container though it is a learned skill

- I use no oil whatsoever unless it is on top of the pie

- Finally, I no longer am using a pinch of IDY to boost the starter. Tests have proven it actually hurts Raquel's Bubble-Burst.

pftaylor
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline pftaylor

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Pizza Raquel
« Reply #567 on: July 08, 2008, 09:36:39 AM »
I should also caveat the above recommendations are only for when one is kneading the dough with a fork kneader. If you still have a KitchenAid, or equivalent, then kindly refer to the freshest Raquel Formulary which specified this mixer.

The Santos has "cured" a number of ills but I understand its not available for everyone.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline pftaylor

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Pizza Raquel
« Reply #568 on: July 08, 2008, 11:55:43 AM »
Grab a cup of coffee or your favorite summer refresher as this will likely take a while.

Naples is calling me. I can’t help it no matter how hard I try to resist.

I really mean it. Over the past several years I have endeavored to produce the finest pizza, irrespective of cost or complexity, which I was capable of. After hundreds if not thousands of pizzas I finally have found what I was looking for. A pizza worthy of being called Raquel, Sophia, pftaylor’s or whatever anyone would like to label my perfect pizza as. I’m finally there due to the synergy of knowledge, humility, passion, intense curiosity, stubbornness, and frankly having the proper tools. I now understand I couldn’t get there without all the above. All these facets needed to ferment together slowly before the truth was revealed. So how did it happen?

Well not so fast my friend. First, some history to provide proper context for my comments. My intention for sharing is simple; hopefully my journey will serve as guidepost of sorts to others for what it takes. We’ll get to the end and see how we did.

I started out making pizza at home by following my Italian Grandmother Quagliariello’s recipe. It was all I knew about making pizza in the home. She was from the Province of Avellino which is in the Campania region. As such, no one and I mean no one, questioned why she did what she did. She just did it. We were all grateful because the pizza was delicious. I was lucky to get her to share her recipe with me before she died because it wasn’t written down. The recipe is still on this forum somewhere.

The next big breakthrough occurred after buying the TEC grill and then joining this forum to affiliate with others regarding our passion for pizza. As I began collaborating with the membership here, Pete-zza primarily, I quickly learned while Grandmothers may know best, mine didn’t with respect to pizza. I learned the family recipe had all sorts of defects and workarounds like adding Carnation malt to the mix to add flavor. All was not a failure as the real take home lesson was simply this; I learned how to make pizza from the ground up.

Grandma Quagliariello would never buy supermarket pizza. Heck, she hated buying pizzeria pizza. So she chose to make pizza from scratch because she believed in her pizza. I use to sit with her in amazement as she hand mixed the flour in the shape of Mt. Vesuvius carefully pouring the ingredients in the middle one after the other. I’m certain that’s where my desire to hand-craft pizza came from. I’m also certain that’s where my stubborn streak came from as well. In my case, being stubborn can be as much a blessing as it is a curse.

I was born in NY and both sets of my Grandparents lived in NY which meant I was exposed to coal-fired pizza regularly during my childhood. So it was natural that I migrated to a coal-fired standard as my primary reference point as I grew older and moved further and further away from ground zero. I even bought the ridiculously expensive TEC grill ($2K) for the express purpose of making coal-fired oven pizza. I didn’t have much success before joining this forum making authentic coal-fired pie. My goal for joining then was to first figure out what was wrong and then faithfully reverse engineer the elite coal-fired pizza of NYC.

My favorite was Patsy’s Pizza. So I started the Patsy’s Pizza Reverse Engineering thread which is still on this forum. Fellow member varasano chimed in proclaiming his love for Patsy’s and we went about the task of producing a Patsy’s pizza. But then something tragic happened for me. Maybe not for varasano because the Patsy’s standard, on a good day, is still his target according to newspaper accounts. I quickly found out I could make a better pizza than what Patsy’s was capable of. How did this happen? What was I to do? What would be my goal if I had exceeded what I thought was the finest example of pizza on the planet? Thinking back, it was a painful time for me pizza wise.

I then decided to set my eyes on my own personal standard which I named Pizza Raquel in its American guise and Pizza Sophia in its Italian guise. I decided to no longer take as gospel what others had to say about pizza. It was time for me to go it alone. To take what I knew and come up with a new standard. So I stopped all my participation in various reverse engineering efforts and focused on making my best pizza. Not a clone of someone else’s style. That’s why I steadfastly refuse to allow Pizza Raquel to be called a NY Style pizza, or Pizza Sophia to be called Neapolitan. Because they weren’t and aren’t either of those styles. I just can’t see myself wanting to perfectly reproduce let’s say a Naples based Margherita with bufala. It just couldn’t be as good as they make it in Naples. Why? Well, I’m sure the cheese is delivered fresh daily whereas I would have to wait days to get it. That’s just one dimension of my reasoning as to why I wouldn’t want to produce a Neapolitan pizza or any other style. I just want to produce the best I’m capable of with what’s available to me and maximum freshness has to be part of it.

See, the only standard I adhere to is what I can personally see, hear, feel, and observe as being better. Not what someone else says is better but better as defined in being producible my kitchen in Tampa. Frankly, I have borrowed a lot from other styles but none more so than the Neapolitan one which is where most folks think modern pizza came from to begin with. But even so, I still initially found fault with trying to reproduce a Neapolitan pizza – after all it was just another man’s pizza in my eyes.

Make no mistake, I really wanted to embrace authentic Neapolitan pizza because of the teaching of pizzanapoletana and the sense that Neapolitans do it right. However, its not as easy as it sounds. Neapolitan pizza is the hardest style to get right. I ran into significant difficulty making a great Neapolitan pie relative to the success I was enjoying with my NY based reverse engineering efforts. So naturally I migrated towards success and shied away from bad results. It confounded me that others at the time claimed how easy Caputo was to work with while I struggled mightily. I now realize my pizza palette and attention to detail is perhaps not as forgiving as some others. What others may have defined as great would not be for me.

Further, I learned the hard way Caputo based pies really weren’t meant for my grill, low, medium or even high heat. Yet I knew from the teachings of pizzanapoletana that it “should” be the best flour for high heat baking. So was the problem with me or with everyone else? That is where humility came into play. As advanced as I thought my pizza making skills were, they weren’t enough to make a killer Caputo pie on a grill. Caputo based pies may work okay in high heat gas or electric environments to a degree but not well enough for me. But Lord knows I tried with the TEC. The defects were too overwhelming in my book. This led me to building the venerable Raquel Oven. I felt an ultra-low domed wood-fired oven could produce a better pizza regardless of style. Since I didn’t have a roadmap to guide where I was going I needed the Raquel Oven producing perfectly uniform heat whether it’s humming along at 600F or blazing away at a thousand. So I can really produce any style I want without fear. But in the back of my mind I knew I wanted another crack at Caputo.

What I learned about wood-fired baking other flours like high gluten or bread is they simply don’t hold up quite as well as they did on the TEC. 800F on the TEC produces a crisp crust. 800F in the Raquel Oven produces a crunchy crust. I would call that a defect. Others may prefer it, which is why every type of pizza is valid if you enjoy it and why I don’t force my personal preferences on anyone else. But for me, crunch is best left for crackers.

Then I began experimenting with blended flour combinations of Italian 00 and harder bread or high gluten flours. What I determined here is that once again the Neapolitans have it right more than they have it wrong. My last few batches of blended flours have been good bordering on great. But the 100% Italian 00 flour based crusts have been stupendous. Both Caputo and San Felice I might add. They have proven to be the superior flours for my style of pizza. Which is decidedly un-Neapolitan but which borrows more concepts from Neapolitan pizza than any other.

What’s going on here? For years I tried to make crusts with 00 flour and struggled to even make a competent crust and now I think I’ve mastered it? Yeah that’s right. It’s that simple. No really I mean it. How can I say that with a straight face you ask?

Pizzanapoletana that’s how.

He has laid out in painstakingly precise detail how to make an authentic Neapolitan pizza. It is only now with enough understanding of his teachings and the right tools that I can use his recommendations. It took a high temperature wood fired oven and the Santos fork kneader before Caputo submitted. It was a battle of wills for years and I finally got there with heaping helpings of passion and curiosity.

So my curiosity led to years of experimentation with every possible mixing regimen down countless rabbit holes. What did I learn? All paths led me right back to the feet of pizzanapoletana. He was right all along. I’m glad I finally decided to submit to pizzanapoletana’s teaching around dough management because if you think about it, who else makes better crusts? The truth is the ancient way of making dough, coupled with a fork kneader is the proven approach. I tried to improve upon it and couldn’t. So with total humility, I can honestly state the best pizza crust I’m capable of making requires:

- Low dome oven wood-fired at a certain temperature range
- Fork kneader mixing certain ingredients in a specific sequence
- Natural starter to produce an avalanche of flavor in the crust 
- Long fermentation at certain temperatures

Now if I could just get pizzanapoletana to consider a 15” form factor. There I go again…

So without further ado, here is the revised Pizza Raquel Formulary taking all my experiences and chunking it down into what should be a familiar guideline:




Pizza Raquel
Simply Everything You’d Want


Baker's          Weight             Ingredients &
Percentage   (oz/g)             Descriptive Comment(s)

100.0%        58.21/1650       Sifted Flour – Caputo/San Felice Pizzeria
060.6%        35.27/1000       Water – Purified, Bottled, Anything but Tap
003.0%        1.76/50            Ischia Starter – Fully Activated
02.73%        1.59/45            Sicilian Sea Salt – Finely Cut


Suggested Preparation Steps
1 - Dissolve salt in water. Dissolve starter in brine. Add one half of flour
2 - Turn kneader on continuously during the double stage kneading process
3 - 1st Stage Knead: Slowly sprinkle remaining flour for 10 minutes incorporating wet & dry ingredients completely
4 - 2nd Stage Knead: 15 minutes to build gluten structure
5 - Turn kneader off, cover bowl. Give Raquel a 15 minute beauty rest
6 - Turn kneader on for one full revolution.  Dough texture should appear finished
7 - Remove dough from bowl. Punch & fold on bench until very springy. Shape into bulk ball & place in covered bowl to begin double stage rise process
8 - 1st Stage Rise: 15 hours at 66F
9 - Divide & shape into balls & cover
10 - 2nd Stage Rise: 3 hours at 66F
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline shango

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #569 on: July 08, 2008, 12:52:19 PM »
PFT,

This is a lovely recipe.  It is also Neapolitan. 

Sorry, but a rose by any other name...
pizza, pizza, pizza


Offline MWTC

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #570 on: July 08, 2008, 05:15:36 PM »
Just a few questions.

Are you feeding your stater with Caputo?

What is the effect of using the Santos mixer as compared to the KA Spiral Hook Mixer?
I understand that is the incorporation of oxygen added through the folding of the dough when it is being kneaded by the Santos. So, what is the tangable results of using the Santos over the KA with Spiral Hook?

Seeing the new Formulary, I notice that there is no longer any cold fermintation. That really changes things. Having to go through the process each time you want Pizza seems cumbersome. You must have some cold fermantation dough on hand just for ease of production. I will be trying the long version to see the results. Would you speak to this point.

Thanks for your willingness to share.

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 12:25:15 PM by MWTC »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #571 on: July 08, 2008, 08:43:16 PM »
PFT,

A couple of questions.

I remember reading in one of your posts that you started out with a KA Mixer with an "C" hook before you upgraded to a spiral hook and different KA model. I got one of those. It's KA Classic (w/"C" hook). Anyway, how would you advise us guys who don't own a Santos to go about your new mixing regimen? Would you say to stick with your old routine, pre-Santos, or would you say to give your new mixing technique a shot?

And what about the additional pinch of IDY when using a KA? Is that something you'd keep or just try it without?

Actually, that were three questions.  :)

Mike
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Offline pftaylor

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Pizza Raquel
« Reply #572 on: July 09, 2008, 08:19:45 AM »
shango,
I believe you captured the entire essence of the post. In other words, without purposefully trying to make an authentic Neapolitan crust, it sort of happened. Of course, the odds were stacked in the favor of a Neapolitan crust due to:

- Using what turned out to be Neapolitan mixing regimen
- Using a fork kneader which is favored by Neapolitan pizzerias
- Using an ultra-low domed wood-fired oven incorporating Neapolitan oven principles
- Using the flour of choice of Neapolitan pizzerias

In fact, I would have to say one would have to go out of their way NOT to make a Neapolitan pizza considering the above. But that is exactly what I do. I will continue to utilize the best techniques available to produce the best pies I'm capable of making without consciously trying to "fit" into any category. An accurate description of my pizza would be it is primarily Neapolitan with strong NY and artisan style overtones. But by no means is it authentic Neapolitan by intentional design or any other style for that matter. It is my style which may be no distinct style at all. A little of this, a little of that. Yeah, that's the ticket.

No, my personal journey can be summed up in the following illustrative example. Upon receiving the Santos kneader I naturally tried my standard formulary first which worked okay but only used 30 ounces of flour. Not nearly enough to take advantage of the Santos forks to oxygenate the dough in my opinion. I sort of felt like the Santos was a Ferrari idling in the garage instead of being out on the open road. So I then decided to increase the flour by 10 ounces to 40 total. Still not enough. So I drifted up to 50. Better, but still not optimizing the Santos technology to the fullest in my estimation. But the trend analysis was positive so I finally went up to 60 ounces of flour and lo and behold I stumbled upon the Santos sweet spot for batch size - in my opinion.

Now how does all that tie back into anything remotely Neapolitan? In my post above I discussed how I'm imbued with curiosity. At a 60oz batch size the Santos was operating in an optimal manner so I decided to make another batch to reproduce the results to make sure my good fortune wasn’t luck. As I began adding the ingredients I reflected back upon just how differently the Santos forks attacked the dough than the Kitchen Aid. It was at this point I remembered pizzanapoletana’s advice about not turning the mixer off once you begin adding the ingredients. So rather than include a pseudo autolyse for the batch at hand I decided to not start and stop this batch as I have for the past several years. In essence I decided to submit to the Neapolitan method of making dough in a fork kneader. After all, they are the ones who have been perfecting this approach for decades so logic would dictate they know a little something about the process.

Turns out the dough was at least as robust as the previous attempts but the texture of the resultant crust was superior. So I knew I was on to something. In the world of home pizzamaking the one tenent which seems to hold true is “less-is-more.”

So I began to realize the less-is-more approach worked for my dough making and I began to wonder about the other facets of the dough management process. It was precisely at that juncture I began to question everything with equal skepticism. Why am I using a refrigerator for the rise? Didn’t pizzanapoletana comment one time that his dough “never see the inside of a refrigerator.” So I switched from a cold rise to a room temperature rise and the flavor in the crust shot up without compromising Raquel’s Bubble-Burst crumb.

Frankly, if a pizza maker from the foothills of Kentucky would have shared his experience like pizzanapoletana did with a fork kneader, natural yeast, and a long slow fermentation you might be calling my pizza a Louisville Slugger. But alas, that didn’t happen.

Anyway, I then decided to go back to my notes and review Neapolitan recipes and lo and behold what did I see? How about a recommended batch size of one liter of water which just happened to be within two ounces of where I ended up on my own with all the experimentation.

Now is that fate?

Luck?

Heck I don’t know. Which is why I started out the above post with “Naples is calling me. I can’t help it no matter how hard I try to resist.”

So I patently reject the label of authentic Neapolitan for my pizza but gladly accept it as the most appropriate description for inspiring Pizza Raquel’s crust. My goal is to continuously improve the Raquel Formulary for what I consider to be the consummate crust, if you will: one built upon centuries of acquired knowledge, experience, secrets, and most importantly my personal preferences.

In the immortal words of Paul Harvey, “now you know the rest of the story.”

MWTC & Essen1,
I use a rotation of Caputo, San Felice, and King Arthur to refresh my starters. An additional point is the Ischia starter has proven to be the starter of choice for my tastebuds. It is not even close compared to the varasano and the Camaldoli. I did not uncover this until I began refreshing the starters on a weekly basis. Refreshed on a lesser frequency and the varasano was the clear winner. The Camaldoli never had enough impact on flavor, in my experience, to make it worth all the trouble. Go figure.

The tangible differences are exactly what I have exhaustively written about over these past few weeks. The Santos does not heat up the dough one bit which means you can work the dough without fear of overheating or overworking it. The Kitchen Aid simply beats the heck out of the dough and heats it up which is why I suggested keeping the mixing times so short. The last few recommendations I have given about using Kitchen Aid mixers is where I suggested working the dough by hand as soon as the ingredients come together to minimize the deleterious effects of heat. Also, the Kitchen Aid is not very adept at injecting oxygen into the dough which is what the yeast (whether wild or baker’s) needs to get jumpstarted. Yeast need the presence of oxygen to flourish which is why an extra pinch of yeast is not needed with the Santos but is with the Kitchen Aid. So the solution for the Kitchen Aid was to clobber the dough over the head with yeast to force the beginning of the process with two extra steps; the upfront rest period allowing the yeast freedom to begin their maniacal breeding and feeding and the addition of a pinch of yeast to make sure there are enough beasties to “get er done.”

Regarding the desire to use a refrigerator to make life easier, I can understand completely. A famous Pizzaiolo gave me the following advice years ago when I asked the same question:

“if the dough is going to be fermented under refrigeration, it needs to come off the hook at 80 degrees
if the dough is going to be fermented at room temperature, i would suggest 75-77 degrees

to get the light crust and proper cooking, the dough must be at room temperature prior to baking.

just a thought.... hope this helps.”

The take home message here is most knowledge is borrowed. The key in this hobby is to take that knowledge and apply it for yourself. In your kitchen. If it works great, keep it. If not, throw it overboard and come up with a better way. Your own way.

I trust you will find the above useful.
pftaylor
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 10:42:36 AM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline MWTC

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #573 on: July 09, 2008, 10:37:55 AM »
Thanks pftaylor.

Thorough and useful.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #574 on: July 09, 2008, 03:43:45 PM »
PFT,

Thanks for the update. I'll make the necessary adjustments.

Mike
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Offline pftaylor

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Pizza Raquel
« Reply #575 on: July 10, 2008, 08:55:46 AM »
I wanted to add a few important remaining thoughts regarding my position on why some may believe Pizza Raquel is Neapolitan while I steadfastly and unequivocally do not. My position can be summed up as follows:

I am not qualified to make authentic Neapolitan pizza nor is it my end-in-mind. Maybe I produce a Neapolitan style laced with NY and artisan influences but it is certainly not the real thing. My reasoning is just because I possess certain pieces of equipment which are "capable" of making a Neapolitan pizza, I do not yet possess the knowledge or experience to do so. My guess is the vast majority of those who firmly believe they produce the real thing - do not either from a purely technical level. 

Frankly any other conclusion, in my opinion, is simply inaccurate. There are only a handful of members here, or so, who have tasted the real thing in Naples, I have not. Even less who have worked in an authentic Naples pizzeria. Even less who share any knowledge openly so how do we properly judge?

So I can humbly state I do not know enough to produce authentic Neapolitan pizza because there are still too many gaps in my knowledge base. What I know about Pizza Napoletana was learned from the VPN guideline (which apparently contains a number of questionable recommendations), a scrap of detail here and there from a few American pizzaiolos who have taken a training course or two, a tip now and then from a master pizzaiolo who has spent fifteen or so years studying the animal, and the real source of all things Neapolitan - pizzanapoletana. But the sober reality is just knowing the guidelines is not enough. At least not for me.

My guideline Formulary is just that - mine. I do not pretend to believe for one second that a Pizza Raquel would taste anything like a Neapolitan pizza. I am convinced in order to claim to make the real thing one would need to actually work beside a master for a few weeks if not months. Why? Well, my understanding is that there really isn't a formal Neapolitan recipe - just guidelines to be followed. Since there are so many checkpoints in the production of the dough which require on-the-ground experience I therefore believe it can only be learned by doing, watching, and understanding.

Anybody can buy the right tools and quality ingredients but that is not enough.

pftaylor
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline Barry

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #576 on: July 14, 2008, 12:08:38 PM »
Hi pftaylor,

Thank you for the revised Pizza Raquel Formulary. I have to a agree with everything you say !  I have just returned from a trip to Naples, and can vouch for fierce heat cooking in a low ceiling oven and room temperature rise for the dough.

Salvo used fresh yeast and makes awesome pizza.

Kind regards.

Barry in Cape Town , South Africa

Offline pftaylor

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Pizza Raquel
« Reply #577 on: July 15, 2008, 07:04:30 AM »
Barry,
I'm officially jealous. You went to Naples and ate at Salvo? I need more details. How did the conversation evolve to the point where they distinguished between using lets say a starter and fresh yeast? Was that, in fact, the comparison used? Sounds like to me you have more to tell. Give it up Barry. We need to know more about their dough management process. We've been living on scraps and ANY light you can shed will be more than what we now have. Please help us less fortunte pizza souls...

Seriously though, what was it that distinguished Salvo's pies from all the others you tried? I'm particularly interested in whether the crust was fundamentally different and if so how.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline kiwipete

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #578 on: July 15, 2008, 07:15:23 PM »
"Fresh yeast?" are you sure?

I have been to Salvo's a couple of times (unfortunately they were closed the first time) but the second time we had some lovely pizze there. I was allowed to have a look behind the bench and have a look in the oven. Took quite a few pics, (some of which ended up on their website) and had a talk to Ciro and the other guys there (well sorta talk: they speak little english and I speak little Italian, so there were a lot of hand movements..)

As far as I know they use a starter (Ischia according to Marco; see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1370.msg12561.html#msg12561 ). Furthermore, the front page of their website says, amongst other things: "una lunga lievitazione naturale a temperatura ambiente". This roughly translates as: "long natural leavening at room temprature". I take this as an other indicator that use a starter. Additionally, knowing what dough made with a starter and long room temp fermentation looks, feels and tastes like (because thats how I make it), I'd have to say that they use a starter.

Their oven is a Forno Napoletano (from Marco's company)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 07:28:33 PM by kiwipete »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #579 on: July 16, 2008, 02:12:17 AM »


As far as I know they use a starter (Ischia according to Marco; see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1370.msg12561.html#msg12561 ).

Their oven is a Forno Napoletano (from Marco's company)


Hi Peter,

Ciro can do both a Wild Yeast dough and Commercial yeast dough (both are natural), and in the past 2005, in another location, he was alternatively using "my" starter, but is indeed using commercial yeast now.

As I said in the past, you can do wonderful doughs with commercial yeast, as I did recently in Argentina, the important thing is to change the methodology to ensure you always get the best of the ingredients at your disposal.

Ciao